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bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

Need more spore mines and mucloids!

 Ratius wrote:
Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?

Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?

If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?

Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.

Null deployment I think is about flexibility mainly. Controlling the action. Tyranids are shot to mid range army for shooting. this type of deployment allows shooting to get close with out losing it like walking across the board. Most of our best units get focused down before the can do much. With everything dropping in at once target priority becomes a issue as well and you have all of a sodden provided a lot of high threat target that must be handled. Causing a dam if you don' dam if you do situation for you opponent is always good for you in most cases.

For you first question. Vs. an alpha strike army Ideally you go second. this negates two rounds of his shooting. This hurts a alpha strike army cause they want to be shooting at you. 2nd you get to shot them first doing damage and crippling critical parts of their army. As for reserves you can work around coming in piece meal by building in to your list a +1 for reserves or using a bastion with a coms relay you can get rerolls to come in. These will help a lot with the issues of reserves. Going first also lessens the pain of shooting a lot in the same way. You still get to hurt first and usually very hard. I have had only a few games where I didn't do a good amount of damage the turn I came in on. Bad dice will happen.

2nd question: I feel it gives the allusion of board control to your opponent. If you place your spore mine to block lanes of movements and objectives. Truly I hope my opponent moves around the board.. With a army like ours, your opponent moving around is usually a good thing for us. Another thing to think about. With a castling army they hate when we drop in close. They only have one turn to kill everything before combat happens.

3rd question:: Knowing the army you are facing is very important. Knowing how many units he can kill in turn one is important. All you have to do is add one unit more to you deploying and he can't do it. Having at lest 6 units that can deploy is very useful I like the spore field formation as it gives you the ability to place units all over the table plus they can come back 4+. It cost 90 points to give you the option to null deploy if you want.

For me this style of play allow me to decide where the fight is and on my terms. I dictate they where and when and that is huge. Being to counter deploy after seeing their moves and to capitalize on their mistakes is a huge bonus.
Depending on what you drop in the option a numerous. Having 6 MC in your lines or 40 plus little bugs are just something you can't ignore which is the fun of the list.

Thanks for the very interesting reply shadow, some interesting ideas!

it's also about denying your opponent two entire shooting phases against anything meaningful if it's done right.

bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

Yeah, it was a blast alright....as in, he blasted me off the table.

 jy2 wrote:

bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

Yeah, it was a blast alright....as in, he blasted me off the table.

I am looking forward to this two as I feel Tryanids would be a hard counter to his null deployment type list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
Thanks for the very interesting reply shadow, some interesting ideas!

Hope it was insightful as it is my preferred play style in 5th. I so glad it back now in some type of format. It will catch a lot of player off guard. It will also take you some time to use it correctly as it takes a few of the go to unit away like malanthrops or venoms. It is a different mind set in playing for sure.

Units like the tfex, warrior, Pyrovores ( yes I said them ) Dima, tervagon, and even the Swarmlord are options. It is a outside the box style of play for sure.
I know a guy in 5th that ran 18 warriors in pods and did well with them. Then it was a crazy list. I am interested in how something like could work now as well. should be fun to find out.

You can only fit 6 Warriors in a pod nowadays, and it's kind of pointless because Shrikes now cost the same points and achieve the same thing more or less.

Pyrovores in pods are great, and probably the most legit thing you mentioned, all the rest can work however, although Swarmlord and Tervigon are pretty hard to justify for the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

I think this is a really solid looking list. Make sure you play the TFex carefully! Really good list though.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You can only fit 6 Warriors in a pod nowadays, and it's kind of pointless because Shrikes now cost the same points and achieve the same thing more or less.

Pyrovores in pods are great, and probably the most legit thing you mentioned, all the rest can work however, although Swarmlord and Tervigon are pretty hard to justify for the points.

Depending on the list the Swarmlord has a place and the Tervigon as well. I wouldn't run both together.
With the changes to how pods work you can only take 6 warriors that is true never said they could take 9. But I did say in 5th for the nine warriors in a pod not now. In 5th people thought that list was terrible with all the str 8 shooting around then. But it did really well in the hands of the guy playing it. Even VS. space wolf long fang spam which was our bane in 5th ed.

While shrikes are good, warriors are a little more survivable when you pod them in with there 4+ armor save. If they are caught out of cover (Failed charge or something), I don't have to worry about bolter fire taking them out like shrikes. Are the optimal no. Could the work with in a list, yes. They can threaten any target for the most part baring a land raider.

You don't have to take 6. Even 4 in the back field is a good threat and can't really be ignored like.

I know that the drop pod mechanics have changed and I was highlighting why this particular use of them has become even effective than it was, in response to your post about trying it out in 7th, hence my use of the word "nowadays".



S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I know that the drop pod mechanics have changed and I was highlighting why this particular use of them has become even effective than it was, in response to your post about trying it out in 7th, hence my use of the word "nowadays".



S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.

Still can't believe they are not t5 :/

 krootman. wrote:

bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

Need more spore mines and mucloids!

My thoughts exactly. 3 units is not enough to null deploy. Although they do have to also destroy the bastion, you ideally want at least 6 or 7 units I think. I will try out a list with 6 vs drop pod marines (who probably have the best chance of tabling me) and let you know how I do!

 krootman. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.

Still can't believe they are not t5 :/

It's so annoying, I mean its not a super common counter, but it IS super hard counter, making taking any significant number of Warriors/Shrikes/Ravs a game of scissors paper rock, except one where you don't necessarily win if you paper their rock, but you are very likely to lose if they scissors your paper. I think it's just bad design, they would be better designed and just as balanced with T5 and 2W or something similar.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

So as a newbie Null deployment Nid player, do I have this right?

1. Deployment is: only mucolids (perferably hidden behind LoS terrain or the Bastion), bastion with comms and Venomthrope within the bastion?
2. You deploy the bastion on the edge of Nid deployment zone?
3. Venom + bastion give turn 2 deepstrikers 5+ inv ?
4. Rest of the deep strikers land to counter where opponent has moved?
5. Flyrants - do they fly on or deepstrike? Situation dependant?
6. Should you ever outflank / infiltrate Lictors? Or ?
7. Everything else deepstrikes?

I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?

 krootman. wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?

Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.

I was thinking a list like this:

It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.

i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.

 gigasnail wrote:
how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.

i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.

Going CAD limits me to 2, Adding Skyblight gets me to 3 which is good. I'm just not sure about the Harpies.

I don't want to go Leviathan because of the crappy warlord traits, and I feel like I need the bastion, because I've heard terrain is unreliable, and its hard to keep a single Venom alive long enough to get FMCs Airborne, and Leviathan doesn't allow a fortification.

Why not CAD+Leviathan?

solid reasons ~

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?

Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.

I was thinking a list like this:

Spoiler:

Tyranid Cad
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Venom

3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left

Crone -> Provisional based on missions

Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)

Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.

It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

What are the missions being played at this event?

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?

Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.

I was thinking a list like this:

Spoiler:

Tyranid Cad
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Venom

3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left

Crone -> Provisional based on missions

Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)

Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.

It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

That is one of the other options. CAD + Skytyrant. Can't take a VSG, only allowed formations are ADL, Bastion, and Skyshield. VSG can't take a comms relay anyways. But skytyrant is a consideration. Also Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, and possibly bioblast node or Living Artillery. Or just run all 3 of my Tyrannocytes.

I'm not sure Eldar and Dark Eldar are as bleak as you indicate. Modern Eldar rely almost completely on Wave Serpents for anti Air, and I get armor saves against them. Dark Eldar rely on poison, and I get armor saves against them. They can do damange, but not a ton. I'm more worried about my ability to do damage back. Barbie could pop a wave serpent a turn, or Kill a Wraith Knight. 2 Harpies can put one hull point on a serpent a turn, and have no shot of ever killing a wraith knight. The Gargoyles help with the wraith knights a bit in the form of tarpits, but aren't quite as good.

I don't go CAD + Leviathan for personal reasons, because I think it is a violation of sportsmanship. I have considered CAD + Leviathan with a personal limit on Leviathan to things that would fit in an allied detachment.

 krootman. wrote:
What are the missions being played at this event?

They haven't announced them yet. Last year they were eternal war with a few other end of game scoring things thrown in like Table quarters. If I recall 4 of the 5 had Kill points as a primary or secondary.

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.

For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.

If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.

If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?

Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.

I was thinking a list like this:

Spoiler:

Tyranid Cad
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Venom

3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left

Crone -> Provisional based on missions

Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)

Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.

It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

That is one of the other options. CAD + Skytyrant. Can't take a VSG, only allowed formations are ADL, Bastion, and Skyshield. VSG can't take a comms relay anyways. But skytyrant is a consideration. Also Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, and possibly bioblast node or Living Artillery. Or just run all 3 of my Tyrannocytes.

I'm not sure Eldar and Dark Eldar are as bleak as you indicate. Modern Eldar rely almost completely on Wave Serpents for anti Air, and I get armor saves against them. Dark Eldar rely on poison, and I get armor saves against them. They can do damange, but not a ton. I'm more worried about my ability to do damage back. Barbie could pop a wave serpent a turn, or Kill a Wraith Knight. 2 Harpies can put one hull point on a serpent a turn, and have no shot of ever killing a wraith knight. The Gargoyles help with the wraith knights a bit in the form of tarpits, but aren't quite as good.

I don't go CAD + Leviathan for personal reasons, because I think it is a violation of sportsmanship. I have considered CAD + Leviathan with a personal limit on Leviathan to things that would fit in an allied detachment.

 krootman. wrote:
What are the missions being played at this event?

They haven't announced them yet. Last year they were eternal war with a few other end of game scoring things thrown in like Table quarters. If I recall 4 of the 5 had Kill points as a primary or secondary.

Ah I didn't realize you were not using cad plus Levi for personal reasons, fair enough.

So with eldar, I can only speak from my personal experience, but I tend to force you to engage my knights and try to make you jink. I have 3 far seers in my current list and vs flying tyrants I'll make sure all 3 have presence and prob attempt misfortune if I have to fire my serpents, and shrouded. Depending on the mission, the knights give me the ability to pick how I want to engage you,because you have to use your flyrants to pick off my objsec in order to win. You will have 5 turns most likely to fire the flyrants and the plan is to use that fact against you.p

Also I run holo fields and I have no issue kinking against the harpies missiles.

shadowfinder wrote:

Also with the passing of LVO we have seen a new play style for Tyranids emerge. It is not really new but has been out of favor for a while. Null deployment.

The three styles I see now competitive are::
1: Flying MC spam
2: Trapdoor spider style with a barbed hierodule and other forge world goodies as the center pieces.
3: A Null deployment with a focus on MSU and a lot of spore mines.
4: a mix of two of these possibly

Each of these list have strong points about them. The question is which one has the edge in competitive play? What are strengths and weakness of each play style? Whatare the good match up and bad ones? Or which has the fewer bad match up?

Each list type makes us relook at units that we may have written off as no good. I thought it would be good to get peoples thoughts on this and what they are seeing in their area in response to the surprising win at LVO. Or if it has had no effect at all.


For my self I Love playing Null deployment list. In 5th ed. that is all I played and it was great fun. I am personally looking forward to finding out how null style Tyranid will effect the meta in the weeks to come. I am trying it out in three week at a local RRT.

Don't forget Skyblight. Combined with Leviathan, it is still really good.

 N.I.B. wrote:
A nice read Sean, thanks.

Btw, I have a thread in YMDC on spawned Termagants - do they have ObSec, or not? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638424.page

Feel free to join the discussion. Would be interesting to hear how it's played in your regions, in Sweden many tournaments are guided by a 'Swefaq' who rules against ObSec in this case.

By RAW, they should be ObSec if they were spawned by troop tervigons. However, most tournaments rule against that. Even the ITC/LVO has FAQ'd it as no.

 Ratius wrote:
Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?

Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?

If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?

Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.

Null deployment doesn't necessarily means that you deploy the bare minimum. You need to evaluate your opponent's potential to really hurt your army with their alpha-strike and then deploy accordingly. For example, if they don't have much shooting, then deploy your flyrants and you are all but guaranteed to hurt him on T1. If they have decent shooting (and they are going 1st), then reserve any of your weaker units that can potentially give up First Blood. If they have strong shooting, then reserve all the valuable units and leave just the units that don't give up VP's/FB, especially ones that you can easily hide.

Also, if you are playing a null deployment list, then you better have a way to control your reserves. Either the comms relay with the bastion or aegis defence line, a character with the ability to manipulate reserves or you better pray that you get the right Warlord Trait.

Yes, most null deployment lists will give up board control. However, that is offset by the flexibility of the list to be almost anywhere at any time. With the exception of playing against ObSec armies, you can control/contest objectives almost anywhere. Where you will have problem, however, is against ObSec armies but then again, they give almost every other non-ObSec armies problems. It is just an inherently exploitable weakness of most null deployment lists. The only thing you can really do about that is to blast those units off the table with your offense.

You need to deploy more units than you think your opponent can reasonably handle. That is one of the reasons for MSU or massed spore mines/mucolids. They have potentially 6 units that can blow yours off the table? Then you need to deploy 7 units and so on.

The strategy of most null deployment lists is to control the Movement phase and to surgically eliminate specific parts of your opponent's threats. While you do lose some board control, you have the advantage of first strike against most opponent's armies.

 luke1705 wrote:
You want more lictors for 3 Mawlocs. Guiding them in is so important. I think the ratio you want to hit is at least 2 lictors/mawloc

Not necessarily.

Lictors acting as a homing beacon is just a benefit. You cannot rely on that tactic.

However, more lictors is good due to the MSU nature of such a list. They help to spread out the threat as well as the target priority and they can potentially do damage if ignored.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

I was thinking a list like this:

Spoiler:

Tyranid Cad
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Venom

3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left

Crone -> Provisional based on missions

Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)

Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.

It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.

While I like Skyblight, I feel that you have too many non-flyrant flyers. 2 hive crones and 2 harpies? I'd recommend dropping the extra hive crone and go with either a mawloc or more of a MSU approach (with lictors and/or more ObSec ripper swarms).

Or run 4 flyrants with Leviathan + Skyblight. Hey, it's not Leviathan+CAD at least.

BTW, the void shield on the bastion is not projected. It only protects the bastion itself. With the exception of drop pod meltas, I don't think it is really worth it against the majority of the armies out there.

tag8833 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.

i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.

Going CAD limits me to 2, Adding Skyblight gets me to 3 which is good. I'm just not sure about the Harpies.

I don't want to go Leviathan because of the crappy warlord traits, and I feel like I need the bastion, because I've heard terrain is unreliable, and its hard to keep a single Venom alive long enough to get FMCs Airborne, and Leviathan doesn't allow a fortification.

You can make the Warlord your Skyblight flyrant.

 krootman. wrote:

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

What are the missions being played at this event?

I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.

Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.

I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.

So I had a non-competitive game today against the new necrons. I realize the vast majority of this thread seems to be min / maxed tournament lists / players (who knew there were so many tournaments...), but it seems the most relevant thread to post. I honestly can't believe how resilient basic warrior blocks are. I could not put more than 3 down a turn, even when my scatter dice were on fire. Immortals were worse with the 3+ armor. Can anyone foresee any tactics to use against them these days? I realize it could have been much worse with wraiths or ghost arks thrown in, but it still seemed incredibly overpowered that his models would just ignore half of what I threw at him with reanimation.

Brief run down of the game below:

We played a special mission for a campaign game, he deployed in a 2 foot square in the center of the board, to one side, while I had deployment along the other 3 board edges, 6" in. His list was roughly 2 Triarch Stalkers, 3 tomb blades, 2 10 man squads of immortals with gauss blasters, 2 10 man squads of immortals with tesla, 2 15 man squads of warriors, a lord with warscythe, and a cryptek. He had some of the guys in a Decurion detachment, while 2 squads of Immortals weren't (I may be wrong, this is an estimation of his 1500 point list).

I had a Flyrant, wings, 2 TL Devourers, Regen, and Hive Commander, Venomthrope, Lictor, 11 genestealers w/ broodlord, 20 termagants w/ fleshborers, 20 termagants with devourers, 3 warriors w/ barbed strangler, Exocrine, Mawloc w/ regen, and Tryannofex.

The objective was to have as many points within 6" of the center of the board at game end, and I had my Flyrant and Exocrine in CC on the objective at the end, with the Tyrannofex marching down a flank picking off immortal squads. He had about 8 immortals and 1 warrior with the lord left in the center with 1 Stalker. I honestly think really lucky rolls in the last 2 turns of the game swung the outcome back into my favor.

The new Necrons - especially that of the Decurion detachment in the new codex - is built for resiliency. I am finding the offense isn't as great, especially against flying MC's or MC's with 2+ saves, but their durability is outstanding. However, they lack the mobility as they once did with night scythes. You can actually hold them in their own deployment zone (at least the majority of the army) with a more aggressive Tyranid ground force. If he is running a primarily walking army, then your best bet is to lock them up in combat with your gribblies or even with the TMC's. Prevent them from getting to the objectives and then you can take them yourselves.

We need a ground army to face Necrons in assault, sadly ground nids aren't exactly competitive from a TAC pov. Also Flayed Ones should beat the crap put of anything we have on CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another different topic, I run a Lictorshame list (with the spore field formation) against a Battleweagon Ork list in Vassal. The Ork player conceded on the beginning of my third turn after a Mawloc nuked his MANZ.

That being said, he made a lot of mistakes and if he had played smarter I'm not sure I could have bested him.

What's the optimal set up for Sktytyrant? I'm going to a 1250 tournament with some friends and was wondering how best to run it (shall also be using three Dakka Flyrants). I would feel bad about three Flyrants, but my opponents are bringing super heavies, FBSC and other power combos

 krootman. wrote:

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

What are the missions being played at this event?

I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.

Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.

I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.

I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.

I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.

 krootman. wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

What are the missions being played at this event?

I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.

Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.

I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.

I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.

I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.

I think you guys might be talking past one another, it sounds like you are talking Sky Tyrant, and he is talking Sky Blight. Sky Blight has three Broods of Objective secured Gargoyles. (That re-spawn )