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Bharring wrote:
Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?
...

Because not only are Wave Serpents currently very overpowered but if you not only reduce the Cheese Shield but you actually give something back whilst also making another unit viable that's got to be a good thing - hasn't it?

Suite wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Well, it seems I'm the only one running a Seer Council on foot but I can't figure out, why this unit should be dissolved. The Warlocks function as a bodyguard/council/what have you now which is in the fluff canon. The only issue is the horrendously low price on the Jetbikes option. Bump it up to 25-30 points for Farseers and Warlocks (because they do profit so much more of it than an Autarch).

Putting them on foot or making bikes prohibitively expensive seems like a good compromise. I admittedly truly despise the seer council as I've been fighting it for three editions now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?
...

Because not only are Wave Serpents currently very overpowered but if you not only reduce the Cheese Shield but you actually give something back whilst also making another unit viable that's got to be a good thing - hasn't it?

Despite most my negative posts, I'm all about making EVERY unit viable in EVERY list. I have no problem with assault buffs and making banshees a "thing" again. But that means the other choices have to be made not auto-takes.

Scatter Lasers I think are just fine how they've been implemented. As was posted before, there are only a handful of units in the codex that can take advantage of the Laser Lock rule.

I'm surprised some people are advocating for such an extreme nerf to the Wave Serpent. I agree it's probably a bit too powerful, but knock it down too much, and you've thrown the internal balance of the codex completely off-base.

I also think the Wraithknight is just fine where it is. In the world we live in where the Riptide is only 180 points, a 240 point Wraithknight seems fairly on-target. Nerfing the T of the Wraithknight to 7 doesn't make a lot of sense either, since you've got T8 Wraithlords.

Here'd be my suggestions:

HQ:
Avatar points reduced to 170
Other than Eldred, most of the other Phoenix Lords could use a 15-20 point reduction, IMO. I'm not going to go through all of them.

Powers:
Fortune: If a unit fails a saving throw, a unit with Fortune may re-roll the failed save. However the dice roll needed for a successful save on the re-roll is always 4+. This 4+ save cannot be modified in any way. (Basically this rule change removes 2++ and 3++ saves, changing them to a 2+, 4+ or a 3+, 4+. It would also have the side benefit of allowing a 6+, 4+, or 5+, 4+) I understand this rule change would be pretty controversial, considering other Codexes have methods of getting 2++ saves that have not been FAQed. I would honestly prefer that Games Workshop FAQ the BRB to state that anytime a reroll is granted, a success on the re-roll can never be more than a 4+.

Troops:
Serpent Shield change to 36" range.

Elite:
Harlequin: reduced by 2ppm to 16
Howling Banshee: Furious Charge, Acrobatic special rule also allows Howling Banshees to charge the turn they disembark from a Transport (thanks to another poster for this idea!)

Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter: Vector Hunter grants a 5+ Jink Save at all times.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: (I don't even... ugh) The best I can come up with besides completely scrapping all the rules for this is to just give it a 4+ Invulnerable Save as if it was a Warlock. The fighter is so bad I don't think anyone would complain.

Heavy Support:
Falcon: Either decrease points by 20, or make Turret weapons twin-linked (cost of Falcon is not aligned with that of any of the other grav tanks)
Wraithknight: New special rule - Wraithknight may fire up to four weapons in the shooting phase, at -1 BS. Wraithknight may not fire Overwatch in the following turn.

"I'm surprised some people are advocating for such an extreme nerf to the Wave Serpent. I agree it's probably a bit too powerful, but knock it down too much, and you've thrown the internal balance of the codex completely off-base. "

Play against them some more. Frankly, I don't care about the internal balance of Eldar when we have codices like CSM running around.

A 20 point drop in the Falcon would make a significant drop in the Serpent's shooting less crazy. Shouldn't the Falcon be the better gunboat?

Note: I had put my propsed changes here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568278.page

Although I think that needs an update. Treating the Serpent Shield's range as 6 (or even 12) seems like such a great solution.

Troops: Serpent Shield change to 36" range.

Won't change anything - its still broken. Range 12" may make it palatable and even better if its one shot

Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

Bharring wrote:
Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

I want to see the Eldar in desperate straits from time to time. Better than "LOL, turn 3, you've got no models left!".

Bharring wrote:
Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

Considering it's a shield fired as an ad hoc weapon I'd say 12" sound about right.

As the other poster said, a "Weapon" that causes an Eldar hover tank to have to maneuver within 12" to use isn't much of a weapon. You're pretty much guaranteeing that the Wave Serpent will be destroyed next turn. If you'd turn the Serpent Shield into a "Sacrificial Lamb" weapon of last resort, then I'd expect an appropriate power boost to the shield or a point drop from the Wave Serpent. Honestly making the Serpent Shield 12" would simply mean that no Eldar player would use it.

There are many other things you could do to "fix" the Serpent Shield. Personally I think a range reduction to 36" so that the Wave Serpent must at least be within long-weapons range of whatever it is shooting at is a pretty good change. It means the Wave Serpent can't fire the Shield with impunity from across the table. However, Fire Prisms have 60" range as well, and I don't see anyone complaining about them really.

1) Limit the number of Wave Serpents that can be taken as Dedicated Transports to 3 per detachment.
2) Reduce the number of shots from the Serpent Shield to D3+1
3) Remove the "Ignores Cover" special rule.
4) Make "Firing" the Serpent Shield an upgrade that must be paid 20 points for. So a normal "Naked" Wave Serpent comes with a Serpent Shield that can never be fired. It's a simple transport that ignores most penetrating hits. You can convert it to more of a "Battle tank" with an upgrade. This would allow an Eldar player to still have access to inexpensive and reliable transports for Guardians and Dire Avengers, but increase the cost of more offensive loadouts.

Personally, I don't think the Serpent Shield is really that bad unless you're facing an army of 4 or 5 of them. The weapon is extremely luck-based.

Murrdox wrote:
As the other poster said, a "Weapon" that causes an Eldar hover tank to have to maneuver within 12" to use isn't much of a weapon. You're pretty much guaranteeing that the Wave Serpent will be destroyed next turn. If you'd turn the Serpent Shield into a "Sacrificial Lamb" weapon of last resort, then I'd expect an appropriate power boost to the shield or a point drop from the Wave Serpent. Honestly making the Serpent Shield 12" would simply mean that no Eldar player would use it.

It's not a weapon though, it's a shield. It's even in the name. It's purpose, which it does very well, is to allow Wave Serpents to not suck, unlike most other transports in the game.

How about Range 12" with the same stat line - and any unit which is assaulting the unit hit by a Shield counts and having disembarked from an assault vehicle (even if the Shield hit was from a different vehicle).

Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.


One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

"Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons. "

Even with average rolls, Eldar can kill 15+ marines from 36". AP - weapons are just fine if you generate huge amounts of wounds.

You'd need over 10 Serpents to kill 15 Marines in one round with just the shield..... (4.5 avg shots, 8/9 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail armor saves - works out to 15/14ths, or slightly over 1 dead per shield...)

Fluffwise, using the shield is a powerfull oh crap button. It should be very risky, which makes the shorter range (12 or 6) even better.

And please don't cap them at 3! One of the reasons I wish they were needed is so that I could take more of them and still have a fun game!

I'm throwing in scatterlasers. I know they are AP 6, but they contribute greatly to the volume of fire. The shields' real trick is pounding AV 11-13 and FMCs after being twin linked.

Da_Boss wrote:

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

Death mission is hilarious and I love it, and it's doubly hilarious on Eldrad because he's got the only Force Weapon in the codex. Besides, 1 power that is sub-par on a table where every other power is Captain Insane-O is fine. At WORST, you primaris power out to what is a very quality primaris power.

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

You left out how it was a one time use item, that severely depletes the units survivability once it is fired.

If your going to address something, make sure you bring everything to the table.

I may have ended up on the opposite side of the table to Martel several times recently but some of what he's saying here is true.

The Serpent is a little too good for it's points. With Scatter Lasers and Cannon (how I run mine) it will put out:

4 Twin linked S6, from the Scatters = 3.56 hits
3 Twin Linked S6, from the Cannon = 2.67 hits (These Pseudo-Rend of course)
4 (average) Twin Linked S7 from the shield = 3.56

That's 8.16 wounds on anyone with T4 or less done while moving 6" a turn at 24" or it can just fire the Shield and Scatter for 5.19 with a 12" move at 36".

As such 15 marines is 6 Serpents, less with rends.

By itself this is good (not crazy, but good) but look at the strengths of those shots, 7 S6's and 4 S7's, it will also hp to death light vehicles and flyers while remaining invulnerable to S5 or less and packing a 5+ or 4+ cover save. It's a punishing volume of fire that can engage a multitude of targets.

I don't think it needs a massive nerfhammer but it does need a rebalance, maybe shorter range or lower strength, not 12" because at that point your Serpent (as has been mentioned) is dead meat. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't an option in pretty much every slot as a dedicated transport. I'd happily see them cheaper and weaker and see the Falcon get a buff to make it the gunboat as at the moment they are surplus to requirement.

The Jetseer council may be great but individual Warlocks in guardian squads are god awful, I run them for fluff reasons but they are so bad. Any solution would need to have differing effect on the two groups for real balance.

Acrobatics making vehicles assault is something i preyed would be in the dex and wasn't, I support that whole heartedly.

I must admit I don't really know the Wraithknight, I love the model but it is so derpily big it just feels the wrong scale for the game to me. Is the problem with it mobilty, firepower, durability? It is a shedload of points after all.

"The Serpent is a little too good for it's points. With Scatter Lasers and Cannon (how I run mine) it will put out: "

Little too good is not the exact statement I would have used, but close enough.

Agreeing just how far it is over the line will be a discussion that rages until the 7th ed Eldar dex drops

They will however kill 1/4 to 1/3 of their points in marines every turn while remaining mobile, can be spammed due to their slot and are capable of engaging all but the heaviest armour and can on top of all that put out enough shots to bang up hordes. I love the idea of elite super high tech Eldar but either it's potency is too great or it's points too low. One of those points needs tweaking and it's probably easiest if it was potency.

Edit: More to say.

 djones520 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

You left out how it was a one time use item, that severely depletes the units survivability once it is fired.

If your going to address something, make sure you bring everything to the table.

Not a range 60 " it doesn't and it still has jink and holo fields and AV12 IIRC- such a "weakly defended vehicle" ??

The suggestion is that it becomes one shot - its not currently - or not when people played against me - I'll have to look at my Codex when go home?

Make it a proper assault vehicle and maybe drop the points a bit - not a devastating killing machine fielded in hordes.......

It is not, currently, a one-use item. It doesn't seem to be one fluffwise.

At 60", its killing one marine (A little less not twin linked) a round. That is < 10% the vehicle's cost, per round. Certainly not a good ROI. There are great long-range uses for it, but Marines aren't it.

At 36", things get better, but it still wouldn't get its points back in 7 rounds shooting (4*(8/9)*(5/6)*(1/3) + 4.5*(8/9)*(5/6)*(1/3)).

Getting the damage you're talking about, it already needs to start within 30", and move 6" within 24". In the 3+ rounds the Serpent takes to get its points back, the Marines should be able to do something, but basic TACs are a bad matchup.

It is very OP, but let's not overstate it's ability. If we do that, we can't have an intelligent conversation about it.

What about the Serpent screams 'assault vehicle'? I'd love to have one, but I'm not seeing it.

I was looking at the Wave Serpent and analyzing it to try and determine how many points it should actually be worth, as-is.

It's really not all that easy.

A Predator with a lascannon turrent and sponsons costs about the same thing. You can also get two Broadsides loaded down with missiles for the same price. They put out as much-if not more firepower than the Wave Serpent is capable of.

Add about 40 more points to your average Wave Serpent cost and you've got a Riptide. If you add say 20 more points to the cost of a Wave Serpent because of the Serpent Shield, are you really 20 points away from being as awesome as a Riptide?

A naked Fire Prism overall only costs 10 more points than a naked Wave Serpent. Now, think about that for a second. Both tanks are the exact same chassis. Look at the equipment differences.

Wave Serpent: twin-linked Shuriken Cannons, Serpent Shield, 12 model transport.
Fire Prism: Prism Cannon.

The Prism Cannon is a pretty awesome gun. The Eldar Codex math is essentially saying that the Prism Cannon is worth a twin-linked S-Cannon, 12 Model Transport, the Serpent Shield, and then 10 points on top of that. If anything, I think that over-values the Prism Cannon.

The Wave Serpent probably gets a points discount, simply because Games Workshop tends to discount the costs of Troops and Troop transports compared to other FOC slots.

Really for me the issue is rending on like every unit in addition to the fact of battle focus. I'm sorry but both is crazy... they should have one or the other (the only exception being warpspiders) . Finally yes the Wave serpent shield is quite plain ridiculous I'd be happy with D3+1 shots str7 No Ignore cover. Then yes the fact jetbikes cost so little and easily decide matchups with so little as a turbo-boost across the field is plain nuts. Either they need to increase the cost of the unit or increase the minimum squad cap up to 5 so that people can't just take units of 2-3 jetbikes and score on every objective. The wraithknight should be reduced by 1 wound and I agree should lose fearless. Everything else is fine.

The Serpent doesn't cost 145 points. The least it costs is 195 or 210 points. If they were 20 points more expensive, people would STILL spam them and nothing would change. Lists that can't handle 5 Serpents won't be able to handle 4, either and lists that have no problem with them will have even less of a one. To reiterate: Making Serpents more expensive changes absolutely nothing.

What it needs is a shield with range 18" and cost 15 points less. It NEEDS to still be able to function as a DT for those that play such lists, but to actually transport stuff, not stand back and shoot. And for that, you really can't make it more expensive or otherwise no one will use it, except for Serpent spam lists.

Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

As far as Seer Councils go, just say no single Farseer can have more than 3 Warlock bodyguards. Problem solved.

 Araenion wrote:
The Serpent doesn't cost 145 points. The least it costs is 195 or 210 points. If they were 20 points more expensive, people would STILL spam them and nothing would change. Lists that can't handle 5 Serpents won't be able to handle 4, either and lists that have no problem with them will have even less of a one. To reiterate: Making Serpents more expensive changes absolutely nothing.

You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

 Araenion wrote:

What it needs is a shield with range 18" and cost 15 points less. It NEEDS to still be able to function as a DT for those that play such lists, but to actually transport stuff, not stand back and shoot. And for that, you really can't make it more expensive or otherwise no one will use it, except for Serpent spam lists.

I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

 Araenion wrote:
Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

Make the Wave serpent an Assault Transport.

That would be the icing on the cake...