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Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

It doesn't.

It costs 145 typically.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

It doesn't.

It costs 145 typically.

Iranna.

Well yes, I was exaggerating, but still 150 point DT while most cost 40-50. Even the devilfish (which is ridiculously overpriced) 'only' costs 80.

Side by Side of serpent and devilfish.
Bs 3 Av 12/11/10 2 gun drones, burst cannon- may take 8pt 2 seeker missiles, and 10 pt twin-linked smart missile system(replace gun drones)
Bs 4 av 12/11/10 has fast Cannon, catapult, shield, 5pt weapon upgrade, 10 pt cannon upgrade
Holo vs pods: same points cost, pods are better.(don't require movement.

Burst vs Scatter laser- 18" 5/5 heavy 4. 36" 6/6 heavy 4 laser lock. Burst cannon is better as a weapon unless you need increased range or twin linking.(all/most of devil's weapons are already twin linked

Seeker, str 8, ap3, 1 use 72" x2
Smart system- 30"- 5/5 hv 4, homing, ignore cover (can shoot out of los)
2x twin-linked pulse carbine- 18" 5/5 Assault 2, pinning.

Cannon 24" 6/5 bladestorm assault 3
Catapult 12" 4/5 bladestorm Assault 2

Comparing these two serpent has the advantage of +1 to side armour, +1 bs(tau have more twinlinked), The shield can be compared to the smart system, but it has half the range 1 less strengh 5 ap instead of - and can hit outside of line of sight, the serpent has +.5 hits but it is still a gamble. The shield adds a bit of a life span when not being used.
Serpents guns are usually a little bit longer range. Without shield, the devil can put out a higher amount of shots with a burst and smart system.

For 35 points less they do a lot if the shield was invalidated they would be better.
Full upgrade as i described The serpent is about *150 and the tau are rounded to *100. The serpent if the shield was only a shield would have to go down by at least 25 pts-40 to be the defensive version of the devil fish. And the scatter laser would only e affective at 24" range and even then it is only twinlinking 3 shots from a shurikan cannon.


And that's comparing to the supposedly over priced devil fish.

Wave Serpent is AV12/12/10. You didn't mention Devilfish Hull Points(don't know how many there are), it's also a Fast Skimmer, which means a whole damn lot when it's a DT, since your passengers are where they need to be, not just chilling back in your backyard. That's also why Holofields are better in all cases except first turn.

Scatterlaser is a MUCH better weapon. There's no comparison. It twin-links a BS4 vehicle, it has 36" range on a Fast Skimmer chassis and is S6.

Why would you want an 18" gun on a slow-moving vehicle that gets an upgraded cover save if it STANDS STILL. And is a Dedicated Transport, so your passengers, if they're inside, are also standing still doing nothing.

All in all, Devilfish seems like an incredibly bad DT. Maybe not from the profile, but in-game, judging by its stats, it's terrible.

where are access points located and how easy or hard is it to disembark from the transport?

They both have 3 hull points, and the laser lock is only mediocre if their was no serpent shield as i said.
The accesses points are at the back
Bull on the holofields being better, disruption pods are always better because it is always a +1 to cover save while holo-fields make you move for the save. They should both be moving but it is better if you get immobilized or if the other person gets fist turn but if not it is then equal
Being fast only allows it to fire more weapons and or move farther in the the shooting phase.
ps if their is no shield the best range for the serpent would be 24" or the twinlinked scatter laser would be wasted, which is 6" farther away than the fish. The fish also doesnot require line of sight.

So, one has access to slightly better weapons and is faster while the other is cheaper, ignores line of sight and murders light infantry if in range.

Wave Serpent changes from 4th/5th editions are:
Energy Shield -> Serpent Shield
BS3 -> BS4
115pts -> 120pts
Assuming Scatter Laser. Shuriken Cannon and Missile Launcher are pricier now while Star Cannon and Bright Lance are slightly cheaper.

Do note, in 5th edition and earliest 6th edition, the Wave Serpent wasn't bad, just not good enough. Question: does the ballistics skill increase make the transport viable when compared to 4th edition codex? (i.e. weapon prices more balanced and no shots on the shield at all)

 Slayer222 wrote:
They both have 3 hull points, and the laser lock is only mediocre if their was no serpent shield as i said.
The accesses points are at the back
Bull on the holofields being better, disruption pods are always better because it is always a +1 to cover save while holo-fields make you move for the save. They should both be moving but it is better if you get immobilized or if the other person gets fist turn but if not it is then equal
Being fast only allows it to fire more weapons and or move farther in the the shooting phase.
ps if their is no shield the best range for the serpent would be 24" or the twinlinked scatter laser would be wasted, which is 6" farther away than the fish. The fish also doesnot require line of sight.

It does not require LoS only if you trade the gun drone for a SMS for 10 points. Devilfish is good at transporting units (and it has the same sort of back+sides access points as the rino). It has -1 side armour and -1BS compared to the serpent. It also does not have access to the same level of weaponry as the serpent (all S5 AP5 whereas the serpent has access to anti-tank weaponry), and does not have the shield. It's also massively over-costed (before anyone complains about gun-line tau, just look at how much it costs to be mobile).

I thought Disruption Pods worked only if you didn't move?

 Araenion wrote:
I thought Disruption Pods worked only if you didn't move?

No, they give stealth in all but name (it was even FAQed to that effect, so if you can give stealth to a vehicle, it can benefit from both).

Shoot, then it's definitely the better of the two.

The Devilfish's weapon systems aren't nearly as dangerous as the Wave Serpent.

Martel732 wrote:
The Devilfish's weapon systems aren't nearly as dangerous as the Wave Serpent.

Yeah, the devilfish can takes:
A burst cannon
Either 2 gun drons or a TL SMS
And can buy two seekers

Whereas the serpent takes:
A TL Shuriken catapult or a shurikin cannon and
A TL shurikin cannon or
A TL Vright Lance or
A LT Scatter Laser or
A TL Starcannon or
A TL Missle launcher

co'tor i explained those differences previously please read information that was already written.
As for the list of weapons yes lots of options but you can only choose one.
And as i said "if" they removed the shield then we were comparing the viability.

 Slayer222 wrote:
co'tor i explained those differences previously please read information that was already written.
As for the list of weapons yes lots of options but you can only choose one.
And as i said "if" they removed the shield then we were comparing the viability.

I did read it, which differences are you talking about? Also I specifically said or. I was mostly complaining that instead of reducing their price to something feasible, they just made it OP. The tau and eldar were in the same boat before the serpent got it's shooting attack. I was using the devilfish as an example as a cheaper transport, but the 'fish is still overpriced. I wish they just brought down the prices to a feasible level for both of them instead of making the serpent shield the monstrosity it is now.

Don't forget the extra hull point, and the fact the Wave Serpent that doesn't fire it's shields downgrades penetrating hits to glances on a 2+. Kind of a lot of where the points cost comes from.

I think what he's saying is that, sans the Shield, we pay half again the stupidly overcosted Devilfish, for marginally better. With the Shield, of course, we get a broken long-range gunship. Which isn't what it should be.

Bharring wrote:
I think what he's saying is that, sans the Shield, we pay half again the stupidly overcosted Devilfish, for marginally better. With the Shield, of course, we get a broken long-range gunship. Which isn't what it should be.

Exactly. If they just didn't make the shield have it's shooting attack, and just decreased the serpents price it would have been fine, but nooo, GW could never do something as simple as that. They have to make it have a stupidly OP weapon INSTEAD OF THE VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION OF JUST LOWERING IT'S POINTS COST! mutter, mutter...

srsface
Their is no difference in hull points they both have 3

 Slayer222 wrote:
srsface
Their is no difference in hull points they both have 3

Sorry, had it confused with another unit.

My brain is rotting, swear to God.

Even when its not using its hugely overpowered shield gun, the ability to ignore pentrating hits is powerful - especially for a dedicated transport.

Even if it destroyed by glancing hits, its therefore much less likely to suffer a shaken or stunned result which has major effects on any passengers that survivie or even disembark.

Yes, but few people bring meltas or other weapons that can easily penetrate it, so usually even without the shield (for me 80%) it goes down to glances. And in an eddition where glances are the best way to go, (increase mid-high strengh shots), because meltas usually don't give enought shots to be widely effective. Its why their is a rise in plasma weaponry in most meta's.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes, but few people bring meltas or other weapons that can easily penetrate it, so usually even without the shield (for me 80%) it goes down to glances. And in an eddition where glances are the best way to go, (increase mid-high strengh shots), because meltas usually don't give enought shots to be widely effective. Its why their is a rise in plasma weaponry in most meta's.

That maybe because its has good AV for a dedicated transport - I normaly see lots of good armour piercing weapons - from lascannons to melta guns - look especially at the power of the Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau L/R anti-tank guns. Perhas the most common transport used is a Rhino variant (Loyalist and Chaos Marines, Sororitas) - weaker than even an unshielded wave serpent. I see lots and lots of meltas in play myself - both in my own Sisters army and virtualy every Marine army - especially in drop pods

Maybe you should try counting serpents as a devilfish for a few games to feel the difference and than write what's better.

I did something similar, i tried to never shoot the shield, discount the shield and pretend it didn't exist, and tried replacing it with devilfish(however it was a 145 point devilfish...) As a devil fish it performed slightly less but was still usefull for hiding my troops and taking out enemies behind blocking terrain.So other than being overly expensive, and slighly easier to kill, it didn't really affect me much. without the shields defense it seems overcosted by about 30 point to 60. With the shields as solely a defense item it is over costed by 15-30 points.

 Slayer222 wrote:
I did something similar, i tried to never shoot the shield, discount the shield and pretend it didn't exist, and tried replacing it with devilfish(however it was a 145 point devilfish...) As a devil fish it performed slightly less but was still usefull for hiding my troops and taking out enemies behind blocking terrain.So other than being overly expensive, and slighly easier to kill, it didn't really affect me much. without the shields defense it seems overcosted by about 30 point to 60. With the shields as solely a defense item it is over costed by 15-30 points.

Its interesting that you would find it feels overcosted without the shield gun mode, I was comparing it to the Falcon rather than the Devilfish.

At the 145pt range the Serpent (with defence only shield) is packing a twin linked heavy, Holo and Cannon, 2+ pen ignore and 10 capacity.
At the 145pt range (guessed, can't remember the Falcons cost exactly) the Falcon is Pulse Laser, Heavy, Cannon and 6 Capacity.

The Serpent would have a little less firepower but more durability and most importantly due to DT status be available without giving up a heavy slot.

It seems about right to me, it's greater availability balancing out it's greater cost compared to it's punch.

I think the Falcon should also be a Dedicated transport - maybe only for Aspect warriors?

The importance of the anti-glance shield is pretty huge- not only less likely to simply blow up but ignoring the effects on passengers from the 1-3 results on the vehicle damage table is extremely powerful - especially if you have weapons like D-sycthes. Normally a 1-3 result means no shooting for them for their next turn even if they get out or the vehicle is destroyed. That can be a game changer.............with the Wave Serpent having both the shield and the Spirit Stones upgrade means they are extremely likely to still function...............

I find the Shields to fit both roles it is intended for a bit too well as an Eldar player, and there is probably where the balance comes from.

The shield is automatically up first turn, where we have to worry the most about survivability due to not counting as having 'moved' in the prior turn. Add that to it's offensive firepower in all subsequent turns and that is where it becomes a bit over the top.

I recommend making the shield a single-shot system with perhaps a reduction to 36-48" and leaving the survivability mode active in all but the turn it fired it's once-only shot. It keeps it's role as a durable DT, but it doesn't become the godly gunship except for a single alpha-strike. Just my 2c off of the experiences I've had with my Serpents.

The Falcon is a bad comparison, not because it is dissimilar, but because it is not a very well realized tank. Put simply, it's too expensive. The Nightspinner or Fire Prism are both particularly better value, being more specialized, harder hitting, cheaper and only lacking transportation - which isn't exactly something you want to do with a Falcon anyway.

Proposed fixes:

Wave Serpent.
Shield reverts to 4th edition style.
Assault Vehicle.

Falcon.
Dedicated Transport for whichever models it can transport.
Assault Vehicle.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think the Falcon should also be a Dedicated transport - maybe only for Aspect warriors?

Not necessary. Guardians do not come in packs of 6 or fewer models and Wraithguards are Bulky. Only "concern" is with Warlocks, but those aren't very good value off their bikes and Conceal/Reveal can't be used on a Falcon or from a Falcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should probably add that having access to a form of assault vehicle is necessary to make mechanized melee builds viable. These builds need to have a full range spectrum and not only be limited to Banshees, because frankly you can't design a codex around killing Space Marines only - which is what the vocal Space Marine players are complaining about currently, that the current xenos codexes are designed with Marines as the imaginary opponent to be balanced against (not with).