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There really should be a rule against taking a DT that the unit selecting it can't fit in...

Wait what? There isn't? I guess 'cause of Combat Tactics, but... I honestly missed this one.

 Mahtamori wrote:
The Falcon is a bad comparison, not because it is dissimilar, but because it is not a very well realized tank. Put simply, it's too expensive. The Nightspinner or Fire Prism are both particularly better value, being more specialized, harder hitting, cheaper and only lacking transportation - which isn't exactly something you want to do with a Falcon anyway.

Maybe, I find the Falcon to be pretty good but in the new Dex simply overshadowed by the vastly superior Serpent. You are paying Predator Annihilator points for a unit with say a Bright Lance and Pulse Laser, similar survivability but far superior mobility. Alternatively you could load it up with say Scatter Laser and Cannon and you have yourself a pretty tasty Gunboat that can engage all manner of targets.

All this and you have the ability to drop off a small squad of Aspect Warriors or Rangers along your route some of which are scoring units. I agree Eldar need an assault vehicle but I would be very wary of making the Falcon available as a DT, having one MBT troop transport is bad enough without adding a second.

What Predators have you been fielding, that cost so much? Straight las preds are only 140. That's 3 lascannon shots (s9 48"), one of which is twin linked, with av13.

The Brightlance Falcon runs 160 (no ghost walk). 2 s8 48" shots, and 1 s8 lance at 36", but it can move 12" (no twin link).

Dakka Falcon (no ghost walk) runs 170, but can only fire 2 weapons if it moves 12, and only gets all 3 weapons at 24".

Las Pred has slightly better shooting, I would say, than its equivalent (lance falcon).

Las Pred has about the same survivability (av13 is huge, but so is jink, but then the Pred can stay a bit further away)

Falcon is more maneuverable.

About fair, slight bang for buck advantage laspred, IMO.

Non-fast predators are actually kinda hard to use. Especially with all this LoS blocking terrain everyone says should be all over tables.

Everyone says, but who actually plays with that much line of sight blocking terrain at home, or at tournaments. (should is not Is)

Line of sight blocking terrain is really hard to accomplish, I've found. I'm trying hard to make terrain that makes sense for our board, but all I come up with is area terrain or terrain that blocks for infantry. For Predators it's going to be hard to hide and for Falcon-chassis it's even worse.

The Falcon is a DT for the Corsair codex. Granted, I run them in that codex as a troop choice main battle tank (with ShuriCan equipped Corsair inside), but it's not so ridiculous. Maybe the big thing is a functional Holo-Field.
Maybe Holo-Field needs to be nerfed slightly and only provide Stealth (the difference? This would mean that you don't get higher save during Night-Fighting and you can't stack additional protection on it) at a slightly more premium price.

Holo fields don't need a nerf they are worst than the tau disruption pods.

But is that a decent comparison? I find Holo-fields to be mandatory for all Eldar skimmers, it's simply that good.

However, when someone spams serpents they usually don't use holofields. And it is better the fewer vehicles you have because they will be more focused targeted.

Corsairs also pay a boatload more for a Falcon...

Eldar skimmers, aside from the Serpent, aren't very durable. The only av13 available is a 2500 pt walker super (super) heavy. Av12 is great on a flyer, where most decent weapons need 6s to hit, but on a Fast Skimmer, all they get is jink, which makes them fairly easy to kill. Holofields help with this, but only improve the save by 1 (conditionally).

Remember that, while Jink is good, all a non skimmer needs is a little terrain or an interveining model for the same save. Both of which are very easy to do against most targets.

Holofields rock because it turns the standard 2/3 chance of a pen going through to just 1/2. So instead of pens doing damage more often than not, they instead reduce it to 50/50. Its a hedge that takes the larger skimmers into moderately-survivable territory. That its pointed the same for a tiny Vyper Jet bike as a Falcon MBT is odd, but if it were reasonable for the Vyper it'd be a steal for the Falcon.

Also note that, even with the holofield, and the laspred sitting in the open, it still eats either Falcon for breakfast 1-to-1.

160/170 for the Falcon? My codex is at home but I thought they were cheaper, never mind.

You are paying for that mobility though, the Falcon can move 12" and fire a comparable (slightly less against most targets) amount of firepower as the stationary Predator, that is huge, especially since you can also be ferrying around troops. The Predator will rarely score a side hit unless your opponent points that side at him openly (6" move and 1 shot with the other snapping and bad arcs) whereas the Falcon is all turret mounted and high speed, those guys are gonna be scoring side hits fast.

Also, I play with that much terrain. Bunkers, Nid spores (relegated to terrain, so sad), Ruins without windows, some buildings, walls, these are all examples of true LOS blockers most of which can be made with foam board and a rainy afternoon. A static Predator against a mobile enemy can very quickly find itself either compromising targets or firing at reduced capacity in my experience, the mobility of the Falcon counters this very well.

Slightly less? Against AV14, the las pred is moderately better (1/6th to pen 1/6th to glance, two shots plus a twin linked same shot versus 1/3 to pen 1/6 to glance on one shot, and 1/6 chance to glance on two shots)
Its basically 3 shots that hit more often at 1/6 or 1 shot at 2/6 for the pens, but the glances are nearly equal (Pred still glances more, per twin link)

At lower armor targets, the Pred outclasses the Falcon even more. S9 is amazing compared to S8.

And that is a per-model comparison, not a per-point one.

That means we're paying extra points *and* lower survivability *and* lower firepower *and* shorter range for mobility and a 6-man transport capacity. The mobility is nice, and its why I play Eldar, but its not everything.

Also, I only see las preds when I field them myself. There seems to be much better things in the SM codex.

I'm sorry, but this is going to the most least constructive post so far:

If you have a shield on a vehicle that can be fired, surly then it would be able to be fire the width of the board BECAUSE ITS A SHEILD FOREMOST, and only a weapon if the s**t hits the fan

What is next? Assault Termies with stormshields blasting out waves of energy? Reaver Titans unleashing their void shields in a titanic blast to annihilate the entire enemy army?

Shields are defensive, not an assaulting firearm, surly if your close enough to "fire" your shields then your about to get fethed by something that will mulch your transport in CC

Lord solar- You do realize in fluff its a great big energy "beam ish" thing that gets sent out?
I know 60" is crazy, but 6" is also low,

 Slayer222 wrote:
Lord solar- You do realize in fluff its a great big energy "beam ish" thing that gets sent out?
I know 60" is crazy, but 6" is also low,

It also says in the fluff that its only used in Extremis - not as its used now as a general artillery/AA/Light AT gun - so one shot would make more sense, 6-12" seems fair even if points have to go down.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

Do you think the current Wave Serpent is fair and balanced to enable good games - or as I do, not only completely at odds with the actual fluff (see previous posts) but way too powerful (and in the wrong areas) for its popints and easily availbility. Or something else?

Did a Wave Serpent bully you when you were a child?

TyrantJB wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

Do you think the current Wave Serpent is fair and balanced to enable good games - or as I do, not only completely at odds with the actual fluff (see previous posts) but way too powerful (and in the wrong areas) for its popints and easily availbility. Or something else?

Did a Wave Serpent bully you when you were a child?

Nope

Anything actually incorrect about my statement or that Wave Serpents are OP?

18" is fair, because that puts it in charge range of fast moving assault troops.

yes, if you play against guard or necrons serpents have nothing on them. Serpents are also not that good against nids, they suffer from not many shots vs hordes and if someone spams them they have a hard time against av 13-14.

You use them against the Tyranid MCs, not the hordes. Serpents are good against everything, even AV 13, because most AV 13 has 11 on the sides which the Serpent can hit which some maneuvering.

 Slayer222 wrote:
yes, if you play against guard or necrons serpents have nothing on them. Serpents are also not that good against nids, they suffer from not many shots vs hordes and if someone spams them they have a hard time against av 13-14.

it is possible there are a few units that the Serpent is not auto win against - but that makes no difference to how broken it is and how much it needs fixing.

These are not "units" they are armies necrons av 13 is also on side and most necron players stack it so you can't get rear armour, as for auto win, they rarely auto win any games. The game is boring, but not auto win, its boring because you kill serpents and if you kill enough fast it cripples the list and if you don't you loose, I find it reminds people that the game is a dice game. (The serpents is an auto loose against most necrons, guards lists) (tau are also a hard match up.) (Ba is a hard battle if they av 13 wall) as for auto wins, its rarely been the case where they actually cause enough casualties without dying, usually once the shield goes the next turn the serpent dies.

I see the opposite - the Seprpent and its Shield gun - especially in numbers where its OP is increased to extreme proportions.

The fact that it can't deal with the most powerful main battle tanks being seen as a weakness is laughable.

 Slayer222 wrote:
yes, if you play against guard or necrons serpents have nothing on them. Serpents are also not that good against nids, they suffer from not many shots vs hordes and if someone spams them they have a hard time against av 13-14.

Wait, they suffer from not many shots against hordes? Between the Scatter Laser and Serpent Shield?

 Slayer222 wrote:
These are not "units" they are armies necrons av 13 is also on side and most necron players stack it so you can't get rear armour, as for auto win, they rarely auto win any games. The game is boring, but not auto win, its boring because you kill serpents and if you kill enough fast it cripples the list and if you don't you loose, I find it reminds people that the game is a dice game. (The serpents is an auto loose against most necrons, guards lists) (tau are also a hard match up.) (Ba is a hard battle if they av 13 wall) as for auto wins, its rarely been the case where they actually cause enough casualties without dying, usually once the shield goes the next turn the serpent dies.

BA tanks are AV 11 on the side. They are non-issue.

On the table at my group their is so much terrain it is almost impossible to get side shots at tanks, and a ba wall means you won't be getting side shots. as for not alot of shots vs hordes, if you want to stay out of range your only firing the shield, and even with both shield and scatter (my average) was about 3-5 hormagaunts/termaguants that died.

 Slayer222 wrote:
On the table at my group their is so much terrain it is almost impossible to get side shots at tanks, and a ba wall means you won't be getting side shots. as for not alot of shots vs hordes, if you want to stay out of range your only firing the shield, and even with both shield and scatter (my average) was about 3-5 hormagaunts/termaguants that died.

Don't Scatter Lasers have a 36" range? How is staying out of range an issue?

The nid player would always move his mc/units up 6"+base, then giggle to get within 24", i know it was cheating but i got tired of pointing it out after the first 3 rounds, so i adopted my tactics to stay out of 40".
Or move the first one 6+base, then the back one to the front.

 Slayer222 wrote:
The nid player would always move his mc/units up 6"+base, then giggle to get within 24", i know it was cheating but i got tired of pointing it out after the first 3 rounds, so i adopted my tactics to stay out of 40".
Or move the first one 6+base, then the back one to the front.

So what you're saying is "Wave Serpents aren't that good, because my oponent is cheating"?