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I was somewhat bored today, so I decided to pick my top 3 units from across all codices. I originally was against using monstrous creatures, but the Riptide, Wraithknight and DP are just too important to leave out. Plus, Tyranids need a shot to make someone's list! I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough about some of the less popular codices to pick the best, but these are the ones that seem to perform for the respective slots. I am much more familiar with the newer codices that have been released, Eldar especially so I'm probably a little biased on them (Since 2001 here!). This is just a fun discussion to see what others think, there are no right answers.

Rules:

1.) Top 3 units for each FOC slot. (Any order)
2.) No AV units (Helldrakes, tanks, etc.)
3.) No supporting units that can't be purchased under the unit's codex entry (Can't add a prescience psyker, markerlight help, etc.) Obviously, things like exarchs or sergeants are allowed.
4.) HQ isn't a category. This could just get too out of hand if it was as there are too many options and support vs. beatstick HQ vastly affects armies.
5.) No transports/drop pods. Units that can Deepstrike, Outflank, Infiltrate, etc are allowed. (Perhaps unfair to some things, but it changes the dynamic too much)
6.) Try to limit the FOC games. Nobz, Paladins and Plague Marines can all become troops, but require an HQ selection to do so. Say 1 max? (Mine is the DP for HS)
7.) The units exist in a vacuum. This is the hardest rule to explain. Think of a unit that you would feel comfortable running against almost any other unit for a similar point cost.
- For example, I like Eldar Guardians a lot, but they are generally fielded best with a Wave Serpent or if spammed, with a Fearless providing character. That means they aren't in a vacuum at that point. Additionally, units don't have to be maxed out. You see that I picked Eldar Jetbikes on my list, but not a max squad. The setup that I chose is what I think is best for it's point cost against other units for the same point cost.

Elites -

Tau Riptide - 190
-EWO, Ion Accelerator, FB

Ork Lootas x15 - 225

Space Marine Sternguard x10 - 240


Troops -


Eldar Wind Rider Jetbikes x6 - 122
-2x Shuriken Cannons

Grey Knight Strike Squad x10 - 260
-2x Psycannon, psybolt ammo, 2x Daemon Hammer

Space Wolf Grey Hunters x10 - 160
-2x plasma guns


Fast Attack -


Necron Wraiths x6 - 270
-Whipcoils

Warp Spiders x10 - 210
-exarch, fast shot

Raven Wing Black Knights x6 - 257
-1x grenade launcher, melta bomb


Heavy Support -


Chaos Daemon Prince - 335
-MoT, ML3, Wings, Warpforged armor, Greater Reward

Eldar Wraithknight - 240
- Heavy Wraithcannons

Tau Broadsides x3 - 282
- 6x missle drones, HYMP, SMS, EWO

What's the point if we can't include synergies and transports? Screamer stars are too good to live, for example, but remove the Grimoire and the HQ units supporting it and that's no longer the case.

He wants to get an assessment of independent units, not power combos.


But I'm curious as to why no vehicles? That really limits things.

I think excluding HQ's and combo's is dumb.

Fast attack
Flesh hounds from Daemons codex have a place here. They can do pretty much anything really fast besides killing high av stuff and like certain MC.

Someone had a post recently about an HQ tourney where your max was 200 points and it was going head to head on a small board. That was one of the most unique reads and I hadn't seen that thread before which made it fun, unlike the 100+ pages of SoB tactics, another "Wraithknight loadout question", or a week full of Tyranid questions because the codex just dropped.

It was just food for thought and gets you learning more about the game. In this world, Lootas made my list. That's pretty cool as I didn't really know what they did before, but 225 points of them vs 225 points of almost anything else someone would send at them a pretty close (if short), fight.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's the point if we can't include synergies and transports? Screamer stars are too good to live, for example, but remove the Grimoire and the HQ units supporting it and that's no longer the case.

Because things would just turn into a "would this deathstar unit work?". There are plenty of those threads that pop up on a week to week basis. Imagine if your codex was filled with the units I just posted. How much variety would there be rather than the monobuilds that we keep seeing?

jy2 wrote:He wants to get an assessment of independent units, not power combos.


But I'm curious as to why no vehicles? That really limits things.

It's hard to exclude some transports and not others. Allowing transports means that it's not about what unit of groundpounders are good. FOC slots would be filled with whatever allowed you to bring a Wave Serpent, Night Scythe or Vendetta. Obviously the Helldrake would make it. I realize some codices don't get much outside tanks for Heavy Support, but I think there is enough to work with across all armies.

jakl277 wrote:I think excluding HQ's and combo's is dumb.

Fast attack
Flesh hounds from Daemons codex have a place here. They can do pretty much anything really fast besides killing high av stuff and like certain MC.

"Which beatstick is best" has happened a couple times recently. Belakor, Skarbarand and Swarmlord were pretty much the top 3. People theorycrafting over who replaces Swarmlord isn't necessary. Utility is pretty interesting but you aren't going to open that door without people coming in with "zomg Belakor would mop the floor with any of them!". And the point differentials are just too high. When HQs can be useful at ~100 points (Coteaz, Rune Priest) and powerful ones are ranging upwards of 300+, well you get the picture. Flesh Hounds were definitely on the short list, but didn't make my top 3.

Strange that the aforementioned Wraithknight loadout question will get more discussion almost a year after the codex drops than something like this. But oh wells, the crowd has spoken; banish this thread to ignominy!

invertigo22 wrote:
But oh wells, the crowd has spoken; banish this thread to ignominy!

Indeed.
This was stupid as soon as you excluded vehicles.

 skoffs wrote:

invertigo22 wrote:
But oh wells, the crowd has spoken; banish this thread to ignominy!

Indeed.
This was stupid as soon as you excluded vehicles.

That's not polite. No reason to be rude. If you don't like his idea, no one is forcing you to participate.

edit: I found it to be an interesting thought-experiment.

 Dracos wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

invertigo22 wrote:
But oh wells, the crowd has spoken; banish this thread to ignominy!

Indeed.
This was stupid as soon as you excluded vehicles.

That's not polite. No reason to be rude. If you don't like his idea, no one is forcing you to participate.

edit: I found it to be an interesting thought-experiment.

I'm almost certain it was sarcasm, skoffs isnt really the one to be impolite and jump to injults.

I think that if you included vehicles but made DTs an independant slot this would be good since currently IG have no way to compete in this thing since almost all of their great units are tanks

Speaking of IG im going to toss in the good ol 51 man powerblob with commisar upgrade, it probably clocks in around 4-500 ppints but whos counting

I guess ill be the first to start...

for the CSM codex:

Elites:
Noise Marines
Plague Marines
Termicide Squads

Troops:
Cultists
CSM (Those are the only two troops)

Fast Attack:
Spawn
Raptors/Bikers (cannot decide which one is better)

Heavy Support:
OBLITERATORS
Havoc squads
the rest are tanks

Eh, rules are pretty much useless... No vehicles? You just avoided some crucial units. Also, what is "best" unit? Without points cost I guess to your "vacuum" rule? Oh, I read it now: "unit that you would feel comfortable running against almost any other unit for a similar point cost." Sooo, it means just by reason of firepower? Becuase big part of strenght of some units is its versatility, deepstrike etc.

Because you can almost say that IG guradsmen win for the costs of your troop choices they can put on table blob tearing whole "specops" (MEQ) choices etc.

But yeah, it can be interesting, but the rules of "game" are on one side vague and mysterious and on other simply strange (no vehicles?).

Im not so much bored Actually, I should work now

No points limit in the rules? Brilliant!

30 death company
60 thunder hammers, 30 jump packs
Check mate!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh... and lemartes added in there in the same force org slot...

No Marbo in the elite?

your army will loose.

Im gonna toss in grots since for the points there are no other troop choices that can match it iow no other troops choice costs just 40 points

Can't really have a discussion on the best units from each codex with so many pointless rules.

There is no heavy support choice in the Guard codex that doesn't have an AV value.

It also conveniently skirts the issue of some the choices that are so far and away the best in each slot. The best FA choice for CSM is the Heldrake by a lightyear. The Vendetta is the Guard's best FA choice for that matter as well.

Haha wow guys if you can't play by the rules the OP set, just ignore the thread. Its that easy.

I like the idea of making a list where you can pick whatever units you like from any list as long as it fits the rules above, its a fun idea, sorry if my post came off as negative. I just think points would have to be imposed somewhere.

 Dracos wrote:
Haha wow guys if you can't play by the rules the OP set, just ignore the thread. Its that easy.

I'd love to participate, but how can I discuss my lovely IG heavy support slot (everyone's favourite slot) when they're all vehicles?

No points limit list
Elites:
10 th/ss termis (BA)

6 dev cents (seige assault vanguard)
Grav, hurricanes, omniscope

Riptide (tau)
Maxed out with ion

Troops
30 death co (BA)
60 thunderhammers 30 jps
Lemartes

10 assault termis (carcharadons)
Lcs

10 deathwing termis (DA)

Fast attack:
6 wraiths (Necrons)
Whip coils

10 warp spider (eldar)
Exarch maxed out

10 vanguard vet (BA)
10 pfs, 10 mbs, 10 ss

Heavy support:
Wraithknight (Eldar)
Maxed out

Deamon prince (deamons)
Maxed out with wings

3 carnifex (tyranids)
Dakka fexes

 A GumyBear wrote:
Im gonna toss in grots since for the points there are no other troop choices that can match it iow no other troops choice costs just 40 points

Termagaunts ^^

Psudo troop henchmen 12pts.

How about we just disregard OP's "rules" and everybody just list things they think are good?

The top in each slot for Necrons would be-
HQ: Destroyer Lord
Transport: Nightscythes
Troop: Immortals
Elite: Deathmarks
Fast: Wraiths
Heavy: Annihilation Barges

Hmmm, some want to do some Mathhammer on 10 NobBikerz with Banner, Cybork, Mad Doc (with Grot Orderly), and 9 PK's versus 30 Dual Hammer Death Company, with and without Lamer-tease?

Orks Shoot, HoW, and Int 36 Str 9 attacks vs DC getting assaulted could be first test.

Then if DC get to assault, Orks Overwatch and such.

Unfortunately I don't own the ork dex, so don't know how they get those attacks at initiative, or what that banner, cyborg and mad doc with grot orderly does...
If hitting at initiative you are talking 18 hits, 15 wounds (im assuming) if they get the charge. Then the remaining dc get 45 st8 concussive attacks, (are nobs ws5?) If so thats around 23 hits (or 30 if they are ws4), 19 wounds on the nobs. You get fnp right being at t5? So 13 wounds. Pretty close if the nobz get the charge. This is of course assuming the death co and orks all get in range with pile in move.
This may be totally out btw since im not familiar with ork rules.

Amoras wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Im gonna toss in grots since for the points there are no other troop choices that can match it iow no other troops choice costs just 40 points

Termagaunts ^^

Oh ya I forgot they just got that points drop, but too bad your gants will be running away since they have no synapse!

No combos, transports, AV units or HQ? That's like everything that's good about Imperial Guard.

Troops:
PCS
+Chenkov
4x Flamer

PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
PIS
Lascannon
Plasma Gun

HWT
3x Lascannons
HWT
3xLascannons
HWT
3x Lascannons
HWT
3x Lascannons
HWT
3x Lascannons

SWS
3x Plasma Gun
SWS
3x Plasma Gun

Conscripts:
+30 Conscripts


That's a ton of Dakka. Spam as needed. Edit: You can take more than I initially posted! This troops choice will cost you the princely sum of 1445 points if my lack-of-sleep addled brain is accurate.

So that's 110 men, 21 Lascannons, 12 Plasma Guns and 4x flamers. With Chenkov you can respawn those 50 conscripts as needed so you can use them as a mobile screen for your actual soldiers.

I'm actually the guy who posted about the 200 pt HQ tourney (which is happening 2/1).

I love this concept. If the HQ tourney goes well, and we're expecting that it will, we'll probably move onto a small Elites Tourney or Fast Attack Tourney.

Also, from a Mathhammer standpoint, a fully kitted out, single Troops choice IG Platoon would completely destroy 30 Dual Thunder Hammer wielding Jump Pack Death Company Marines. Once the Marines get close, a single round of shooting can kill all 30 with slightly better than average rolls. And if they do survive to assault and they win, your platoon is broker into multiple smaller units, so they'll just shoot, shoot, shoot.

For Elites, I wouldn't discount Tau Crisis Suits. Sure you only get 3 suits, but you can add 6 drones and you can kit them out to take all comers with no issue. 3 Crisis suits will take out a Riptide like it's made out of paper if you're playing them properly, and their mobility negates his mobility.

A fully kitted out IG platoon. 5 plasma gun, 5 lascannon and 35 las guns and 5 power axes) Lets say death co not in cover.
10 plasma gun shots in rapid fire range will kill 2.8 death co.
5 lascannon will kill 2.1 death co.
70 lasguns in rapid fire range will kill 2.6 death co.
Thats a single round of shooting. (All got rounded up btw so lets discount .1) thats 7.4 death co... not quite the 30 you said.
But lets be fair, the IG would have got another round of shootingin none rapid fire range. Thats another 4.7 death co dead. The death co now charge. Overwatch kills another 2.5 death co (I can show the maths if you like). So 14.6 dead death co, call this 15.
16 HoW hits kills 11 guardsmen. Lemartes kills a further 3. Now 31 hit back (power axes come later). Kills 1.1 death co. 14 death co now hit (at the same time as power axe sarges). 5 st 9 attacks each rerolling to hit and rerolling to wound. Thats 62 hits. 60 wounds against the remaining 36 guardsmen. Bit the sarges do hit back before they die, killing another 2.5 death co.
So all guardsmen dead after they have managed to shoot 3 times and all managed to strike in combat. Death co attacked only one round. 12 death co and lemartes left standing.

Not quite wiping out the death co in 1 round of shooting...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats a mathammer standpoint.

I factored in Orders. You get more than 70 lasgun shots.

Btw the maths is slightly out as I did not give the guardsmen their armour save to the HoW attacks... but ive ran the figures again and those 3 extra guardsmen make no difference at all to the outcome.

*more than 70 rapid fire shots anyways.