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 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Oh yeah that rule. Sounds like you are using Serpent shields to hull point them out. The smallest fiddle in the world is playing for the Eldar. Maybe you could take less Wave Serpents and bring a Crimson Hunter, like I have to often take a Stormraven/talon. Alternatively, you can use your Jetseer Council to table their ground troops.

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Necron flyers don't have quantum shielding...

 Galorian wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Necron flyers don't have quantum shielding...

I was gonna say......

 Slayer222 wrote:
I'm actually fine with marines sucking. I would really like them to be bottom tier army instead of middle of the road. After all the poster time its good that the xenos, tau, eldar, nids, (hopefully orks), and so on get some attention. Yes i know 3+/2+ saves aren't as good as they used to be, hell i play grey knight and don't spam henchmen and every model counts but against general fire/ 2/3 of the fire eldar give out they still get their save since the wounding is only on 6's. All this pseudo rend was given probable to deal with the t9 monsterous (biomancy) creatures like every other codex got we just happened to get it on our shuriken weapons that used to suck so badly that eldar players used to cry. ( but after marines get kicked around for atleast a year or two then i would say its okay to let them get back up, to bad they had to make them middle of the road oh well).


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we also don't have any other options for dedicated transports.



As for dedicated transports "weapon platforms" look at razor backs. (not saying they are op). They can take las and a twin linked plasma cannon, and have 2 for the price of our serpents. Yes they loos the shield but no one is counting the shield defensively in this scenario. They also have 1 less av to front /side but now have 2x the amount of hull points in the army. Giving the fact that you can plump them in cover to atleast get a 5+ cover save These two vehicles can put out serious damage for a dedicated transport.

First off, where was CSM's answer to T9? Second of all, where is all this T9? DP? They can only get to T8 with luck, Nurgle? He can get to 9... by way of luck. Nids? They could get to 9... on a lucky role... until their codex is updated... so where are these T9 units? I've seen extra low ap weapons and MC with stupidly good saves and phenomenal guns with great mobility the majority of the time usually with a decent invuln save.

Anyways, seriously? You want SM, BA, SW, GK, DA, and CSM to all suck? 6 armies!? Really? Also guess what. You know the poor Tau? Well in 4th they weren't so poor. Poor Eldar? Ever remember the days of Eldar skimmer spam? Or maybe 2E Eldar broken fun? Don't you remember the chaos daemon white dwarf of joy? The flying Necron circus with wraiths at the beginning of 6th edition? Along with that, CSM hasn't had a high tier codex sense 3.5E and has housed such bitterness, rage and fury throughout much of 4th, 5th, and even 6th but nooo they got the held rake so who cares?

Here is the thing, no army should be better or worse than another, wishing it is idiocy. This game is for fun, what is fun about having to suffer years as an inferior codex? That just brings bitterness. And what? If all SM codices suffer for years as drastically inferior, does that not validate for them too to be superior to Xenos and daemons? Which will then continue the cycle of grudges and bitterness?

EDIT: I'm not saying the Eldar codex isn't flawed. It is. It has some bad holes Pocking through it, but it also is one of the top two codices currently. It has several broken lists and overall has better synergy and also overall better units. That isn't saying they don't have disasters like... banshees... Nor so I deny I still don't get why they would give guardians range 12" guns. And DA? Why would you not put them in a wave serpent? It solves pretty much all of their flaws and problems and places them in the best transport in the game. Tau's? Ain't got nothing. Rhinos( what a joke? Razorbacks? Yeah those were good last edition. The wave serpent just wins it all. A fast skimmer, super mobile, extreme dakka, extremely durable with a decent AV but more importantly a jink save that can be made better with an upgrade? Who can blame them for deploying it?

Exalted StarTrotter.

Martel732 wrote:
Exalted StarTrotter.

Indeed. Me too.

Seriously, all I (we) want is for codices to be roughly equal. This is not remotely the case right now.

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

False that is only things with the quantum shielding rule. That includes ghost arcs, annilation barges, triach stalkers? but most definitely NOT night scythes. They are AV11 always

edit: ninja'd

That means Nightscythes are totally hosed against Eldar. Hey Necron buddy! Take a number with my BA!

martel piss of, i have told everyone my lists on multiple forums and i run 2 night wing interceptors and limit my self to 3 serpents, 2 for troops and 1 for fire dragons, and if falcons where dedicated transport i would take that instead for my fire dragons to have a better theme, but they aren't. And shut up about the fiddle when players literally gut themselves and used the codex since the time when is sucked and it took skill to actually beat anyone. And now many players still gut themselves just to have diversity and fun so if you want me to battle you with a cheese list that will make you cry fin but other than that look at the player and list history before comenting. Go to eldar necessary changes and see how i would gladely loose the shield to 18" range or over nerfes if they fixed some other things in the codex for more balance.



And for the guys saying the necrons flyers don't get the shields, the guy presented the codex in front of me and it said that the flyers had the shields so... where does it say differently. I would really like to know because he brings the most flyers (imperial guard/necrons) and it would be sweet if we could find a way to knock his flyers down a level(atleast the necron ones.)

If you ever read my posts, I say that players shouldn't have to self-nerf. Eldar can crush Necrons with the tools they have. My marines don't even have the tools to do this.

Having looked at my local necron players book multiple times I can say that night scythes do not have the quantum shielding. They do have living metal which makes them ignore shaken or stunned results after a roll (pretty sure thats how it works). So I do not know what to tell you but I know for a fact that night scythes do not have AV13 at any point

Bharring wrote:
It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

The Jetseer Council fails if it cannot bring their spells through. For instance, Shadows in the Warp (Nids) gives a malus of -3 and this will become a big issue when the Seers come too close to a synapse creature.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

The Jetseer Council fails if it cannot bring their spells through. For instance, Shadows in the Warp (Nids) gives a malus of -3 and this will become a big issue when the Seers come too close to a synapse creature.

I'd pay money to see that I hate the Jetseers so much. Nom nom nom Nids!

 Slayer222 wrote:
And for the guys saying the necrons flyers don't get the shields, the guy presented the codex in front of me and it said that the flyers had the shields so... where does it say differently. I would really like to know because he brings the most flyers (imperial guard/necrons) and it would be sweet if we could find a way to knock his flyers down a level(atleast the necron ones.)

Then your friend either didn't read his own codex or was lying through his teeth at you and counting on you not actually reading the pages he was flashing your way.

I've been playing Necrons for a while now and ordered my scythes the moment an actual model was released and I assure you that they do not have quantum shielding.

Yeah read the codex on my pdf and compared it to the death from the skyes and the "flyers" don't have it. I also corrected him 2x on his repair barge not creating models aboe the original max, and that on a pen his quantim shields actually go away.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yeah read the codex on my pdf and compared it to the death from the skyes and the "flyers" don't have it. I also corrected him 2x on his repair barge not creating models aboe the original max, and that on a pen his quantim shields actually go away.

DAMN! That's quite the laundry list...

Hey, look! The Eldar are back on top when you play by the actual rules.

Martel732 wrote:
Hey, look! The Eldar are back on top when you play by the actual rules.

Pfff.... Actual rules?

What kind of sick deviant plays by THOSE??

Now I really want quantum shielding on my scythes :(

I wouldn't say Eldar are overpowered, but rather they are a good codex plagued by two broken units: the Wave Serpent and the Jet Seer Council. I field only 1 Wave Serpent and no Jet Seers, and nobody brings up "Eldar=OP" when I win. Call it self-nerf, I call it trying other lists.
With sincerity, if the Wave Serpent would cost more and the Seer Council denied Jetbikes (unless Warlock splits off), then people would find the Eldar codex to be "just good" and not OP.

 ScabiusBile wrote:
Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

Damn straight.

Let me get my TEQ Power Weapon Wielding Eldar warriors of doom inside the belly of the Wraithknight, storm across the field and unload all that death in your face.

In case you haven't noticed, the Land Raider has AV14 and is a transport.



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 Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

-Dire Avengers get a good deal for a nice stateline, the ability to run and shoot (this is a pretty big deal, actually), and high-strength, assault weapons which are good at drowning units in shots AND getting through heavy armour (hell, any wound you score on most MCs is going to be AP2) and can glance AV 10 to death. To top it all off 4+ armour is good against AP- to AP5 and you're not loosing out as bad as 3+ armour units when something AP3 or better decides to shoot at them. In my experience AP4 weapons are relatively rare--the only really common ones I see are the Autocannon and Psycannon, and if your opponent is shooting your Avengers with those then you've won the game or you're hopelessly loosing.

-Tactical Marines pay a point more than Dire Avengers for a less-impressive gun with either 6" more range, but half the shots, or equal damage output against light infantry and AV 10 at 12" , but struggles with heavier armour (especially 2+). The marines get +1 S/T (the Strength doesn't really matter), Frag and Krak grenades (in general Tactical Marines don't want to be on assault duty, though), and Power Armour as advantages over the Avengers. Unfortunately the opponent is actually getting more of their points' worth out of killing Marines with his Battle Cannons and Baleflamers than he is when he uses those against Dire Avengers. Whereas the Dire Avenger's 4+ armour is just right in terms of efficiency, 3+ armour is just way to easy to ignore or drown in cheap shooting to be a more efficient use of points than the Dire Avengers' focus on killing power.

The only other thing that Marines have going for them is their ability to dabble in other roles (a la Combi/Special/Heavy weapons)--but this costs yet more points and often times these weapons are used against something which boltguns aren't efficient at killing. When X Marines fight X Dire Avengers the marines stand a good chance, but I think Dire Avengers are much more efficient overall--in short it feels like I'm getting a pretty good bargain when I take Dire Avengers, but I feel like I'm paying some sort of Imperial Points Tax when I take Marines.

Tactical Marines are better than guardians or Dire Avengers and they have better options.
Better save, better toughness, better strength, better options, ATSNKF, easier to paint, available in every starter set, etc.

3+ save means you take 33% instead of 50% losses on AP5+, 33% instead of 100% on AP4, and 100% instead of 100% on AP3-
T4 means you take 50% instead of 66% losses on S4, 66% instead of 83% on S5, and 83% instead of 83% on S6+
It also makes your base profile only take ID on S8+ instead of S6+ for the Eldar.

So yes, it does not save you from bad tactical decisions, and it may not look as sexy as eldar troops, but the fact is that MEQ has an incredible statline compared to Eldar sissies.

There *may* be an issue with the Wave Serpent spam, against lists that lack AV fire and thus cannot take advantage of the dropped shield, I'll check that when I get back to the game.


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 Mr Morden wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

You keep changing the boundaries to make the Eldar look bad (which is hard to do) - so now the Marines are in cover and the Eldar aren't - but then you are missing out on one of the many issues with Cheese Serpents - they ignore cover..............

The so called "tax" on the serpent is usually small Scoring units which you have to take anyway in order to claim objectives etc - so its not a tax but actually a way of having your cake and eating it. Compare the Serpent with the Rhino or Razorback which the Serpent also is able to shred with its super death kill shield gun

They have the same basic weapons, same BS - except of course the Eldar get Rending and Assault 2, yes its 6" less range but they have battle focus to let them choose what range they are at. Both get armour saves against primary weapon. If the Marines want to get in CC they have to use Bolt Pistols, both are same WS and BS but the Eldar strike first in Close Combat - which is huge if they have someone with a power weapon and force shield, like a DA Exarch?

base 10 man Tac squad is 140pts with no upgrades, Base 10 man DA squad is 130pts with no upgrade, now no one plays either like this.......but that's a straight comparison.

The big problem is the Serpent - as you say why use anything else - that means either the other transports are reubbish (which they are not) or the Serpent is OP - which it patently is.

Are you comparing a 145 points (Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, TL Scatter Laser) Wave Serpent of doom with a 35 point Rhino ?

On another note, does anyone know how a 145 points Tactical Marine squad equipped for TAC / AV will fare against a decked out Wave Serpent ?

On another note, does anyone know how a 145 points Tactical Marine squad equipped for TAC / AV will fare against a decked out Wave Serpent ?

It does very bad . its 1 Missile Launcher shot vs what ever the serpent has .

Eldar are top tier. I would say OP. Do they need a nerf? No. They just need to give some other codex some love. I for one would hate to be a Dark Angels player.

I miss my 5th Ed nids. Ahh Drop pods w Zoans and Doom. That Terv spam up the middle. No one could dela w that. A SitW that actually hurt psykers.

Drop pod, plasma + combiplas, and that Tac squad is doing a hull point or two and forcing the player to either kill the Tac squad or move the Serpent too much to shoot all-out.

On rear armor, they're torching the Serpent.

CSM marines are the same points as DAs. 3+ and t4 are both simply better than 4+ and t3. The margin is debatable, but it is undeniably better. Besides, there are a lot of high-ROF ap4 options to both of my armies.

Honestly, bolters do serious damage to Footdar. Just stop letting them dictate engagement terms.

Everyone agrees the Serpent needs a nerf, the council needed (and may still need) a nerf, and the WraithKnight is at least really good, probably OP. But please start looking at the rest of the army more fairly. There are a lot of Eldar armies that don't abuse those.

 Mythra wrote:
Eldar are top tier. I would say OP. Do they need a nerf? No. They just need to give some other codex some love. I for one would hate to be a Dark Angels player.

I miss my 5th Ed nids. Ahh Drop pods w Zoans and Doom. That Terv spam up the middle. No one could dela w that. A SitW that actually hurt psykers.

Wraithknights need a price hike and a lower Strength stat (10?? Seriously?! Even the Transcended C'tan doesn't get that, and he's a goddamn miniature god), Serpent Shield needs to be nerfed hard (cut the range down to 6" or 12" and it might just be reasonable).

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

It seems that the biggest problem with the Serpent is that it's not FoC-limited, not that it's too good for its 145 points.

I guess there are better things out there than a 145 points AV12 Transport that deals 4S6AP6 and then TL (4S7AP-) shots within 36" OR 4S6AP6 and then TL ( 4S7AP- + 3S6AP5 ) shots within 24".

Isn't that a bit meh when compared to a Riptide or Wraith Knight (say one Riptide vs a minimum size unit of guardians/DA in a Wave Serpent) ?

If that's the case, then is the only problem that the FoC pushes us to use crappy units and people hate the Eldar for having a great option ?


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 Ravenous D wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

I didn't do any tournaments, but I recall other Mech Eldar lists doing OK, with WS+ fire dragons, 9 Vypers, 9 Walkers, DA minsquad + WS. It did not seem from the results that Eldar were OP though. Plus they had just nerfed rending on the Harlies correct ?

I mopped up people, but they weren't playing competitively so it's meaningless.

IIRC, the scatter laser wasn't broken as hell, it was the only viable Eldar option to produce enough saturation to get a balanced list.

A fast moving army can put serious pressure on a Serpent spam. I was first thinking about a flying circus to underpin this but its now weaker due to the new swooping/gliding restriction.

Nevertheless you need to keep the enemy at arm's length since the Serpents are very vulnerable in cc.

Serpents benefit from the jink rule in turn 1 when going 2nd. Its no longer necessary to look for cover since they can jink anyway.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

They're also a dying race where each casualty is a critical loss...

Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

Agreed Fluff-wise you can say this and that about who is stronger thats fine. When it comes to gaming and rules all armies should have equal standing and not have anything over the top, not even one uber kill deathstar in each codex. IMHO each player with any codex choosing 1 HQ and 2 troops at equal points value,should go toe to toe. Tactics and occasional good or bad dice should be the only factor that determines a massacre over a draw.

in short each codex should be developed with a draw in mind. thus creating a game based on tactics....and maybe a bit o luck