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morgoth wrote:
It seems that the biggest problem with the Serpent is that it's not FoC-limited, not that it's too good for its 145 points.

I guess there are better things out there than a 145 points AV12 Transport that deals 4S6AP6 and then TL (4S7AP-) shots within 36" OR 4S6AP6 and then TL ( 4S7AP- + 3S6AP5 ) shots within 24".

Isn't that a bit meh when compared to a Riptide or Wraith Knight (say one Riptide vs a minimum size unit of guardians/DA in a Wave Serpent) ?

If that's the case, then is the only problem that the FoC pushes us to use crappy units and people hate the Eldar for having a great option ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

I didn't do any tournaments, but I recall other Mech Eldar lists doing OK, with WS+ fire dragons, 9 Vypers, 9 Walkers, DA minsquad + WS. It did not seem from the results that Eldar were OP though. Plus they had just nerfed rending on the Harlies correct ?

I mopped up people, but they weren't playing competitively so it's meaningless.

IIRC, the scatter laser wasn't broken as hell, it was the only viable Eldar option to produce enough saturation to get a balanced list.

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

My research into Eldar, when I was deciding what faction to play (before the new Dex), saw them regarded as brokenly bad, with a few good options (WW w/sc, for instance). I mean, everyone thought a t3 5+ with a standard powered 12" gun wasn't worth much. This didn't appear debatable then (although I was new to the community).

Eldar are OP now, but that doesn't mean the other poster was lying about them not always being OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please stop equating "Not all Eldar is ridiculously OP" with "Serpents aren't OP". That is not what most of us are saying.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

I was just making the point that Eldar were *playable* in v5, even though they were clearly having a hard time against other armies at the same level of optimization.

The Riptide and Wraith Knight seem to both vastly outclass the Wave Serpent point for point, which implies two things:

1. There are other units (a lot of them) which outclass the Wave Serpent point for point
2. The problem may not be the Wave Serpent utility vs its point cost, but rather its availability, which may be why the stronger units do not seem to piss you off as much.

If you don't want to figure out what's wrong with the Serpent, keep on asking for some random nerf that will not solve your problem and make a nice unit worse in the process.

morgoth wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

I was just making the point that Eldar were *playable* in v5, even though they were clearly having a hard time against other armies at the same level of optimization.

The Riptide and Wraith Knight seem to both vastly outclass the Wave Serpent point for point, which implies two things:

1. There are other units (a lot of them) which outclass the Wave Serpent point for point
2. The problem may not be the Wave Serpent utility vs its point cost, but rather its availability, which may be why the stronger units do not seem to piss you off as much.

If you don't want to figure out what's wrong with the Serpent, keep on asking for some random nerf that will not solve your problem and make a nice unit worse in the process.

The problems with the Wave Serpent are abudently clear to everyone:

Its the only DT that the Eldar have.... they need alts that would mean units like Banhsees become usable
Its insanely durable and made even more so with the new Jink Rules
It has way too much and too good firepower especially against other transports
Its a super scoring unit to add insult to injury in 7th Ed

Pray tell which units are better than the Wave Serpent as a transport and all round gunship and are not also considered OP?

.

Eldar overpowered?

Wave serpents could be cheaper. They can't cast powers on their Marker Light brothers any more, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

The problems with the Wave Serpent are abudently clear to everyone:

Its the only DT that the Eldar have.... they need alts that would mean units like Banhsees become usable
Its insanely durable and made even more so with the new Jink Rules
It has way too much and too good firepower especially against other transports
Its a super scoring unit to add insult to injury in 7th Ed

Pray tell which units are better than the Wave Serpent as a transport and all round gunship and are not also considered OP?

1. Banshees are broken until they errata the grenades, no amount of DT gonna change nothing. PLUS, having a kickass DT is signature Eldar. Expensive, sleek, efficient.
2. It is insanely durable when it does not fire (145 points of not firing), it is incredibly paper thin when it does (AV12/10)
3. It has little to no firepower when it keeps its shield, decent firepower for 145 points when it drops it
4. There is no scoring in my WH40K. I wipe you off the table or you wipe me off, it doesn't take 5 turns to have a clear undisputed rampage if you play offensive and either player gets an edge.


If the Wave Serpent was OP for its cost, there'd be no jetCouncil, no support choices, only WS.

But it's not OP, it's a very nice way to spend your points on a good unit rather than lackluster ones.

Your enemy is the FoC and the intra-codex balance, not the Wave Serpent.

If you could take good units with good synergy in every slot of your FoC, you wouldn't even notice the Wave Serpents, and there'd be a lot less of them too, because Eldar would have better options.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Tactical Marines are better than guardians or Dire Avengers and they have better options.
Better save, better toughness, better strength, better options, ATSNKF, easier to paint, available in every starter set, etc.

easier to paint and come in a box set, wow what huge advantages on the tabletop marines have.

yeah its such a brilliant comparison - not......

Must not have noticed that (as they have in my Eldar Codex) they also have (which Marines don't)

Dire Avengers are 5pts cheaper
Have LD 9 as standard
Higher Iniative
Pseudo rending weapons which on a 6 ignore both T and Armour.
Battle Focus
Fleet
Counterattack

Oh and of course they can take Serpents rather than a Rhino which the Ws can destroy with laughable ease in one turn.

. PLUS, having a kickass DT is signature Eldar. Expensive, sleek, efficient.

or I love my cheese and can't accept they are too good as everyone else says - or don't care

2. It is insanely durable when it does not fire (145 points of not firing), it is incredibly paper thin when it does (AV12/10)

AV12 is weak - what a load..... compared to what other transport pray tell?

3. It has little to no firepower when it keeps its shield, decent firepower for 145 points when it drops it

More than pretty much any other transport?

4. There is no scoring in my WH40K. I wipe you off the table or you wipe me off, it doesn't take 5 turns to have a clear undisputed rampage if you play offensive and either player gets an edge.

Well thats true if you play Wave Serpent armies and shoot the opponent off the table - and thats the problem with them - again.

I think the main problem with the WS is that instead of bringing it's points down to match its strength, they tried to up it's strength to match it's cost. We didn't want a battle tank, we wanted transport. Alone, a WS is not OP, it's spam ability greatly increases it's strength, however. It's definitely not what makes the eldar codex strong.

DAs are 1 ppm cheaper than Marines (same cost as CSM).
Guardians are 5ppm cheaper, and a lot weaker for it.

(Fairly sure noons pays 18ppm for Tac Marines)

haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

As for the jetseer council, never understood why this was allowed. For the role of the seer council, riding on jetbikes seems very strange thematically. I would love to see the jetbike removed as an option for farseers and warlocks, unless in a special "Saim Hann" detachment.

The wave serpent is a good vehicle, but nothing too crazy compared to other armies options. It can still get glanced to death unless it choose to jink, but then it's offensive capabilities are hindered. Assault troops cannot charge out of it so it's still a delivery system for troops and not an assault vehicle. I would love to see the offensive capability of the shield nerfed a little, but otherwise it's OK and pretty pricey for a transport.

personally, I think small jetbike sqds are the real strength of the eldar list, with amazing speed that can grab an objective easily with the mission cards (and being troops too). That's some powerful stuff right there, even if they don't shoot at all in a game. I'd like to see a rule that forbids taking an objective if turbo boosted, moved flat out or ran. If speed is your goal, securing an objective would not be easy to do.

Bharring wrote:
DAs are 1 ppm cheaper than Marines (same cost as CSM).
Guardians are 5ppm cheaper, and a lot weaker for it.

(Fairly sure noons pays 18ppm for Tac Marines)

Base Squad of Avengers is 65pts, Base Squad of Marines is 70pts

stopcallingmechief wrote:

easier to paint and come in a box set, wow what huge advantages on the tabletop marines have.

not that i would argue this link to my death, heres a link from torrents of fire ranking 6th edition armies through hundreds or thousands of games played. http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos

see that army at the top? says it all dosnt it

Very interesting, thank you. It's definitely a good resource to discuss "Eldar overpowered?".

Here's what I see when I look at that data:

5 Armies are doing good at the expense of all the others.

Against three of those armies, the Eldar is slightly stronger (51% on average).
The SM have been improving a lot, still at 58% win for the Eldar on average, but clearly decreasing, and probably around 54% at the far right of the graph.
It shows that there are a lot of armies feeling the pain of a non-competitive codex, or maybe even non-competitive players.

In my opinion, the top 5 codex are very well balanced against each other, with the worst offender (Eldar) at an average of 51% within the winners' pool, which is very close to the other 4's average (SM 46% Tau 52% Necron 49% Demons 49.75%).

It shows that the Eldar are mostly OP against the non-competitive armies that fare bad against mostly every other army out there, which is certainly a nice-to-have but completely useless in a tournament, where clearly the top 5 Codex seem to be soon tied, and the other armies better wait for another codex or a game-changing something.

I'd love to see some 7th ed numbers though, there's not much point to discuss how OP stuff was in 6th if it's over now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

As for the jetseer council, never understood why this was allowed. For the role of the seer council, riding on jetbikes seems very strange thematically. I would love to see the jetbike removed as an option for farseers and warlocks, unless in a special "Saim Hann" detachment.

Scatter lasers were all the rage for saturation in v5, so I guess they were used, yes

About that jetseer council, it appears to become problematic (haven't tested it, that's what I read) only when including characters from other codex. Which in itself doesn't make much sense anyway, I think that "allied FoC" thing is pretty much a bad idea, an allied character shouldn't be able to join your jetseer council unit, and psykers on motojet looks nice even though it's a bit weird even in a Saim Han context, where you'd more likely have two autarchs.

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

Scatterlasers were hardly ever used? That's news to me, Starcannons haven't been in vogue in 8 years since they went from 3 to 2 shots and increased in price. Scatterlasers have been pretty damn popular, from fourth, through fifth and in sixth.

Very interesting, thank you. It's definitely a good resource to discuss "Eldar overpowered?".

Here's what I see when I look at that data:

Perhaps you should read the notes like this?

If we look at our top four performers, we see that Eldar and Tau generally crushed their opponents’ armies, while with Necrons and Daemons, that wasn’t always the case. When thinking about the dominant builds, this makes sense. Part of Eldar and Tau success was based on doing crippling damage to the opponent in a short amount of time with long range
shooting, preventing them from having the strength to claim objectives later on

7th Ed has made Wave Serpents even more OP than before as not only are they super scoring but they also get to jink even on the first turn and its a better save.

I realise this thread was necroed recently but still read 5 pages and saw all about the wave serpent and seer council being OP (agreed), along with mention of wraitknights/lords and warwalkers. But not once did I see warp spiders mentioned! I know a lot of people don't take them since you can only get a unit of 9 as you MUST buy an exarch with each 5 IRL, however my mate runs 30, and they are INSANE!

Scatter lasers have always been the 'biz', as they were almost exclusively taken on War Walkers to put out a great amount of guided str 6 shots.

As for Eldar being Over Powered, i say meh. I say Wave Serpents are over powered, ridiculously so, that i refuse to play pick up games against anyone with more then 3. This sounds extreme, but can you tell me of an effective way to kill a Wave Serpent as Dark Eldar? Haywire Wyches are FAR to slow, Dark Lances are at their nadir of efficiency Vs Av 12 with a 3+ (!!!!) Jink Save as well as possibly having pens to glances on a 2+. Dark Eldar have quite literally nothing that can handle a Wave Serpent, yet a single Wave Serpent *will* wreck *anything* short of a Talos in a single round of shooting. We have cover saves, you can ignore them. We minus your range? Serpent Shields are range 60!

Please, in all your infinite wisdom, tell me how to counter a Wave Serpent as Dark Eldar. For the life of me i simply can't tell!

That's the thing as well. People say that 'only three' isn't spamming... yes it is! It is by all rights and purposes a battle tank with a transport capacity in a DT slot rather than HS. It may not have been intended to be this way but that is how it plays!

If I took 'only' 3 vindicators then I would be thought of as 'spamming' vindis - and they aren't even anywhere near as good a unit!

Compared to many armies, the Eldar are OP. That's GW's fault for not knowing how to make a good game. Putting a BA army against an Eldar army is at best, cruel.

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

So, essentially what you're saying is nobody used them (which is debatable) until they got changed to do something really good as well as high ROF and decent strength?

Who'd have thought?!!

The amount of whine in this thread is unbelievable.

Not only has someone brought statistics, but I even gave you a proper summary.

So now, the only ones who are still complaining are either not playing one of the 5 good codexes (SM,Tau,Eldar,Necron,Demons) or are just bad at it.

And Sorry mr. Dark Eldar, but statistically, the other 4 good codex are much stronger than Eldar against you, so you should accept that you've got one of the worst codex and live with it. Or change armies.

"Eldar are not OP because you (as a DE player) need to accept you have one of the worst codex" is what im hearing there.
Why should we have to play one of the good codecies all the time? I own a cron army but I also like playing BA and CSM. So I have no right to claim Eldar are OP because I also own these armies. I don't see the logic there.

I disagree, i can handle the other armies just fine. Tau are ineffective without Markerlights, A Riptide is as hard to kill as 5 Terminators to me, Quantum Shield matters not a squat to lances, Wraiths and Bikers die to massed splinter like anything else, Daemons rely on MC while Dark Eldar are rocking Poison, A Beast Pack dominates Tau, Necrons and Space Marines, Vect helps handle Psyker armies . The list goes on, only a fool or someone under a rock would say Dark Eldar are one of the worst codexes, it wasn't long ago when the Beast Pack was dominating the tournement Scene and still continue to do so with a little Eldar Allied Help.

But every unit should have a counter, so please, if you know enough about the Dark Eldar army to blatantly call it one of the worst codexes, then suggest to me how to kill Wave Serpents? Because i am honestly stumped.

morgoth wrote:
The amount of whine in this thread is unbelievable.

Not only has someone brought statistics, but I even gave you a proper summary.

So now, the only ones who are still complaining are either not playing one of the 5 good codexes (SM,Tau,Eldar,Necron,Demons) or are just bad at it.

And Sorry mr. Dark Eldar, but statistically, the other 4 good codex are much stronger than Eldar against you, so you should accept that you've got one of the worst codex and live with it. Or change armies.

I have Eldar army - I choose not to use the cheese units to smash my opponetns and claim I am great player for it

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I disagree, i can handle the other armies just fine. Tau are ineffective without Markerlights, A Riptide is as hard to kill as 5 Terminators to me, Quantum Shield matters not a squat to lances, Wraiths and Bikers die to massed splinter like anything else, Daemons rely on MC while Dark Eldar are rocking Poison, A Beast Pack dominates Tau, Necrons and Space Marines, Vect helps handle Psyker armies . The list goes on, only a fool or someone under a rock would say Dark Eldar are one of the worst codexes, it wasn't long ago when the Beast Pack was dominating the tournement Scene and still continue to do so with a little Eldar Allied Help.

But every unit should have a counter, so please, if you know enough about the Dark Eldar army to blatantly call it one of the worst codexes, then suggest to me how to kill Wave Serpents? Because i am honestly stumped.

Or BA for that matter... or CSM...
Obliterators? Nah - not with a 3+ cover, 60" range high rof good st gun, or 2+ ignore pens.
Assault marines with melta and mbs? Nope - can't catch it.
DE have it worse though. At least BA have attack bikes.

Overpowered? I don't know...a lot of codices are currently very strong.


My problem with the new Eldar dex is that have all of their advantages (i.e., speed) without any of the classic disadvantages (fragility).

They have some of the toughest troops in the game (Wraithguard), pretty much the toughest MC in the game (Wraithknight, which is also incredibly fast...), and the toughest Dedicated Transport in the game (Wave Serpents).


Eldar are supposed to be incredibly fragile. That's always been their thing: high damage output, high speed, low survivability. WK and new Wave Serpent rules (especially given the way Jink works in 7th) totally violate this.

 azreal13 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

So, essentially what you're saying is nobody used them (which is debatable) until they got changed to do something really good as well as high ROF and decent strength?

Who'd have thought?!!

not really, what I'm saying is they were basically the same before yet were not that popular (compared to starcannons, even when ROF 2). The ROF was D6 I think so 50% of the time you had the same or more shots than current. The lack of AP is what stopped many folks from taking scatters, especially with so much power armour around. The addition of the twin linked is hardly an issue since we're talking mostly wave serpents anyway. Sure, on war walkers they're pretty decent, but that was the best load out before...nothing has changed.

The invention of hull points in 6th changed it. Dramatically.

How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

When it comes to the WK I agree that there are sometimes games that I know that my opponent most likely won't kill him, but in a more compepetive games there is always a tool to deafeat him. Either by killing or tarpitting. Grav-guns can kill him, DE can kill him with poison, Tau can kill him with any mass shooting, Eldar obviously can kill him, Orks can tarpit him, GK can instagibb him, Daemons can kill him (but it might depend on the list), Necron can kill him in meele, Tyranids can kill him with some poisonous bugs, haven't faced IG in quite a long time do i don't know about them, Belakor can kill him in meele or via Psychic Shriek. It's mostly the rest of the armies (mostly older armies) that have quite a big problem when it comes to dealing with WK.

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.