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macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?

Other transports (primarily Razorbacks) weren't made of tissue paper in 5th.

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

To add to that, the chimera is basically only taken to ferry veterans or IS somewhere. It is easily killed, which by extension leaves the vulnerable guardsmen to foot slog and die in route to their target. It really had no business getting a price increase.

The WS has Jink at a 3+ (holo-field), which makes popping the shield a freebie. It means first turn use the shield and twin-link with scatter laser. d6+1 strength 7 hits that ignore cover is enough to kill most regular transports with glances never mind that it can pen. Next turn jink if you get shot and use the turn to turbo boost your troops in. Rinse and repeat.

The jink change is only really a nerf to bikes. It is a huge buff to wave serpents and ghost arks. Especially WS because since they are twin-linking with the scatter laser they can usually get around it. People say ignore cover is common, but it is not as much as you think. Especially not on anti-tank weapons. The three big ones right now are Tau, Guard and Eldar.
Guard needs an order to do it. Tau needs marker lights. Eldar have a build in to their WS. Hence the problem. It is a vehicle that does everything and is super durable and can be spammed like hell.

Eldar themselves are not really OP, just top tier especially now that the bike star is nerfed. Its just really the wave serpent that is broken. It is too the point not one I know uses any of the other vehicles (falcons, prisms, night spinner), because why bother when the WS is basically more powerful than nearly every tank in the game. Everyone takes the same thing, WS with holo fields and scatter laser. And every game they last forever. Much longer than most vehicles at their point level.

The codex has too much re-roll to hit, and too good defensive options on their vehicles, but it also lacks good AA options and some kind of assault vehicle.

A tiny bit OP? Yes. Unbeatable? Not really, no.

I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

I have a mech Eldar army and hold my own fairly well in my local, rather competitive meta / arms race.

Lately I'm being told that I need to drop my 2 fire prisms and get 2 Wraith Knights as well as getting a Jet-Council organized to make the most of the Eldar's strengths.

Is this going over the top or just what one needs to do when you consistently face Tau w/ 2-3 Riptides, Necrons, Nurgle w/ Helldrakes, Marines with Imperial Knights and 3-6 chapter masters with orbital strikes. and soon I am sure be facing various Daemon factories.

Honestly it makes me enjoy the games of Kill Team we've played with my marines a lot more.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I have a mech Eldar army and hold my own fairly well in my local, rather competitive meta / arms race.

Lately I'm being told that I need to drop my 2 fire prisms and get 2 Wraith Knights as well as getting a Jet-Council organized to make the most of the Eldar's strengths.

Is this going over the top or just what one needs to do when you consistently face Tau w/ 2-3 Riptides, Necrons, Nurgle w/ Helldrakes, Marines with Imperial Knights and 3-6 chapter masters with orbital strikes. and soon I am sure be facing various Daemon factories.

Honestly it makes me enjoy the games of Kill Team we've played with my marines a lot more.

I think you can get advice for your list in other parts of the forum, but in general a fully competitive list is required to compete with ... a fully competitive list. Not sure whether the WK and jetCouncil are necessary though.

 Happyjew wrote:
I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

Except for Necrons apparently...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm105/flatterkatz/forumimgs/irony.jpg

Their arrogance is matched only by their firepower!

Its not arrogance to think yourself better when you clearly are?

... Are we talking Necrons, Eldar, or Dakkaians?

(Your meta doesn't sound fun)

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Excuse you, kind sir, Necrons. Necrons are older, and have more advanced technology. But, nothing is ever really based on fluff, now is it?

krodarklorr wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Excuse you, kind sir, Necrons. Necrons are older, and have more advanced technology. But, nothing is ever really based on fluff, now is it?

Great news tbh, the fluff doesn't make sense, so the game would be very hard to understand, let alone play.

I can't believe the number of ancient / eldar / elder / asgaard and other super ancient super awesome races that are so awesome they disappear or get to the brink of extinction.

When you think about it, our very pitiful race has never been close to extinction, so why should smarter races face that problem ??? Is it the ancients' curse ? WTF !!!!! anyway uhm.. off-topic.

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

You can have two Chimera's for every WS.

 Daba wrote:

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

You can have two Chimera's for every WS.

And those WS would murder the f**k out of these Chimeras in ~3 turns of shooting...

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?

The IG chimera fleet lists of yesteryear largely worked by simple mass. Their strength was that you could just field a lot of them and overload enemy AT capability. They weren't super mobile, the chimeras themselves didn't put out all that impressive firepower, and aside from smoke launchers didn't really have anything to enhance survivability.

I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

This requires sitting behind terrain and (largely) not moving, whereas a Wave Serpent can sit in the open and sport a 3+ cover save after moving halfway across the board. And the Wave Serpent can choose not to shoot and keep those shields if it really needs to secure an objective.

 Happyjew wrote:
I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

Blood angels here. Have fun insta killing our 4 wound chapter master that somehow doesn't have eternal warrior despite being 1500+ years old before he strikes at initiative 1 with a power axe.

Or yknow, you could just outnumber us badly due to overpricedness.

Not OP, just strong.

The entire codex (with a few exceptions) is packed with competitive choices.

Perhaps the Serpent is the only overpowered unit in the codex. The rest of it are just strong choices that all happen to come from the same book. Many units would easily be 'best in slot' in almost any other codex. Most FOC sections are half full with what people call competitive choices. You can almost accidentally write a strong list by picking random stuff. I actually have to TRY to write soft lists to play friendly games.

HQ - Farseers - Cheap psychic support, best value psyker/hq in the game. With the change to the buffmander joining MC's, he's now the most useful buffing model in the game. Okay, maybe Tiggy beats him out. Warlocks are 35 point psykers with a bunch of cool powers. Cheap source of warp charges.

Elites - Fire Dragons - A whole squad of Melta's for 22 points each. Other armies would love these, but they barely get gametime in a tournament list.
Wraithguard - S10 shooting, Ap2 flamers that can cause instant death, all on a T6 3+ fearless model. That has the option to be troops. And move and shoot.

Troops - Jetbikes. Hands down best troop choice in the game. Jink nerf hurt them a bit, but scoring changes didn't. Avengers and Guardians deserve mention, faux-rending on troops choices is incredibly useful. Troops choice is also where the Serpents come in. The best transports in the game, are now scoring models with a 18' flat out, harder to explode, 3+ jink, everything twin-linked and S7 ignoring cover.

Fast Attack - Warp Spiders. Faux-rending S7, 2d6+6+d6+2d6 movement per turn, and still shooting. Thats an average of 23.5 inches. Nothing that isn't a flyer moves that fast and shoots while doing it. Swooping Hawks get all the cool rules. No scatter deepstrike, skyleap, battlefocus, blind, ignore cover, kill stuff in the movement phase, haywire, and fleet. Precision deep strike onto an objective? yup. Shred any infantry when they get there, too. Shining Spears perhaps deserve a mention too. 7th edition has made them a decent choice.

Heavy Support - T8 MC's, Str10 shooting from Knights, and D-cannons. Jink ignoring missiles, spammable S6 shooting, and rending barrage. You really can't go wrong here.


Basically, if you play Eldar you can take X points of things that are not; Yriel, some pheonix lords, Banshees, Harliequins, Rangers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, and have a competitive army. Not an overpowered one.

Belly wrote:
Not OP, just strong.

The entire codex (with a few exceptions) is packed with competitive choices.

Perhaps the Serpent is the only overpowered unit in the codex. The rest of it are just strong choices that all happen to come from the same book. Many units would easily be 'best in slot' in almost any other codex. Most FOC sections are half full with what people call competitive choices. You can almost accidentally write a strong list by picking random stuff. I actually have to TRY to write soft lists to play friendly games.

HQ - Farseers - Cheap psychic support, best value psyker/hq in the game. With the change to the buffmander joining MC's, he's now the most useful buffing model in the game. Okay, maybe Tiggy beats him out. Warlocks are 35 point psykers with a bunch of cool powers. Cheap source of warp charges.

Elites - Fire Dragons - A whole squad of Melta's for 22 points each. Other armies would love these, but they barely get gametime in a tournament list.
Wraithguard - S10 shooting, Ap2 flamers that can cause instant death, all on a T6 3+ fearless model. That has the option to be troops. And move and shoot.

Troops - Jetbikes. Hands down best troop choice in the game. Jink nerf hurt them a bit, but scoring changes didn't. Avengers and Guardians deserve mention, faux-rending on troops choices is incredibly useful. Troops choice is also where the Serpents come in. The best transports in the game, are now scoring models with a 18' flat out, harder to explode, 3+ jink, everything twin-linked and S7 ignoring cover.

Fast Attack - Warp Spiders. Faux-rending S7, 2d6+6+d6+2d6 movement per turn, and still shooting. Thats an average of 23.5 inches. Nothing that isn't a flyer moves that fast and shoots while doing it. Swooping Hawks get all the cool rules. No scatter deepstrike, skyleap, battlefocus, blind, ignore cover, kill stuff in the movement phase, haywire, and fleet. Precision deep strike onto an objective? yup. Shred any infantry when they get there, too. Shining Spears perhaps deserve a mention too. 7th edition has made them a decent choice.

Heavy Support - T8 MC's, Str10 shooting from Knights, and D-cannons. Jink ignoring missiles, spammable S6 shooting, and rending barrage. You really can't go wrong here.


Basically, if you play Eldar you can take X points of things that are not; Yriel, some pheonix lords, Banshees, Harliequins, Rangers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, and have a competitive army. Not an overpowered one.

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

What is irritating is that the Serpent Shield is the best of all worlds- It gives a great save vs penetrating hits, has massive range, ignores cover, good strength, and apparently is a weapon for the advantages (twin linking for target lock) but not the drawbacks (cannot be affected by weapon destroyed)

krodarklorr wrote:


I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

No. The Eldar Codex is what every codex should aspire to be like.

Maybe some of the excesses need to be curbed (MINOR downpowering of the Serpent Shield, some kind of limitation on Jetbike Warlocks?) and one or two units very slightly improved (Banshes, non-serpent tanks), but the overall quality of almost every unit being one you want to take and trading off another is exactly what you want in a codex.

 Daba wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:


I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

No. The Eldar Codex is what every codex should aspire to be like.

Maybe some of the excesses need to be curbed (MINOR downpowering of the Serpent Shield, some kind of limitation on Jetbike Warlocks?) and one or two units very slightly improved (Banshes, non-serpent tanks), but the overall quality of almost every unit being one you want to take and trading off another is exactly what you want in a codex.

While I understand what you are saying, and even agree with it, that still doesn't change the fact that the Eldar Codex is so far ahead of the curve versus the other armies, it has to be considered OP. Only when all other armies (or at least most of them) are handled in the same manner can you really say the Eldar are NOT a bit OP.

krodarklorr wrote:

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

To be honest, this should be the definition of a GOOD codex - unfortunately because so few codices live up to this ideal, Eldar are overpowered compared to almost everything else!

It would be really nice if the future codexes became more focused on internal balance, making actually difficult and interesting to pick between units...instead of the usual, "well, this is clearly the best heavy...oh, and this is obviously the only decent fast attack"...

 Fos Kenos wrote:
It would be really nice if the future codexes became more focused on internal balance, making actually difficult and interesting to pick between units...instead of the usual, "well, this is clearly the best heavy...oh, and this is obviously the only decent fast attack"...

Screw balance! The game is so unbalanced, it might as well just be one unbalanced thing after the next at this point, and then somewhere it find equilibrium. Chaos wants its Thousand Sons Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers with 4 attacks standard while dual-wielding chain axes, pistols or perhaps a two handed chain sword!

I don't want balanced. I want what my army is supposed to have and the levels they are supposed to be. For example, Defy should probably be as strong as a Wraithknight. He's not, but if we were being real, he'd be ripping vehicles apart and firing that battlecannon point blank with a grin on his face and a Mark on his hide.

I think this idea of "balancing" a game that is built on war (which is never balanced) is the reason we have such an unbalanced game in the first place. Especially with passionate writers giving their all to their favorite groups (like Eldar and Space Wolves). What do they call them? Fandex? Well lets make them ALL fandexs so no one is left out.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Riptide + Buffmander? Fine if I get my 360* Heldrake back + some other much needed fixings through out the codex. Would this give us bigger Codex's more models and a lot more to think about? ABSOLUTELY. Why is that a bad thing though, except that GW couldn't keep up with the demand at that point? Which I would still think would be a good thing. Demand goes up, causes production to go up, causes demand to be pleased. This just sounds like good business to me. <<

I'm sure there are x, y, and z factors I haven't thought about yet (like someones Fandex being the ultimate point for point counter to something/everything else) but again, it comes back to the players to make those games work and where tournament is concerned, well dun care. Tournaments are structured, ruled and what not themselves and can reign in these Fandex's if TO's wanted too, which is kinda what they do anyways.

Food for thought, I guess. Going way far the other way.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
What is irritating is that the Serpent Shield is the best of all worlds- It gives a great save vs penetrating hits, has massive range, ignores cover, good strength, and apparently is a weapon for the advantages (twin linking for target lock) but not the drawbacks (cannot be affected by weapon destroyed)

However, Serpents are still very vulnerable in cc.

Fast moving armies like Daemons or Bikers can this to their advantage.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

While I understand what you are saying, and even agree with it, that still doesn't change the fact that the Eldar Codex is so far ahead of the curve versus the other armies, it has to be considered OP. Only when all other armies (or at least most of them) are handled in the same manner can you really say the Eldar are NOT a bit OP.

Statistically, it is on par with the rest of the 5 top codexes, and more decisive against weaker codexes because of the glass cannon nature of the army lists. That's it. There's no statistically visible OP-ness, no reason to whine against Eldar more than you'd whine against Tau or Sm or Necron or Demons, no reason other than when an Eldar kills you, he does it right.

So if you'd rather have bland battles with 34% losses on one side and 47% on the other side, go ahead, have *all* glass cannon armies removed, make all those players sad, and you still won't have any more balance, because you're barking at the wrong tree.

I will of course revise my position if someone has other numbers than those I've already analyzed, but so far, there isn't a shadow of doubt with regards to "Eldar overpowered?".

Moreover, this idea that every unit in the Eldar codex is good is rubbish. Yes, many of those units *can* be used and *may* be useful in a non-competitive game, but you will never win a tournament with those units.

That is not to say that there is not a third tier, with things like the banshee, composed of units you'd rather never take in anything else than a 100% fluff game, which were overly abundant in the previous Eldar codex, and are apparently very present in other codexes at this point.

But that's a problem of bad internal balance, and it's applicable to every race.

Lastly, if your army is not one of the top 5, you've been screwed and you statistically don't stand a chance in a competitive match. So stop whining, get another army or forget competitive until your next dex, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hedgehog wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

To be honest, this should be the definition of a GOOD codex - unfortunately because so few codices live up to this ideal, Eldar are overpowered compared to almost everything else!

They are not. Statistics of the top 5 pool show SM 46% and climbing, Necron 49%, Demons 49.75%, Eldar 51%, Tau 52% .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Riptide + Buffmander? Fine if I get my 360* Heldrake back + some other much needed fixings through out the codex. Would this give us bigger Codex's more models and a lot more to think about? ABSOLUTELY. Why is that a bad thing though, except that GW couldn't keep up with the demand at that point? Which I would still think would be a good thing. Demand goes up, causes production to go up, causes demand to be pleased. This just sounds like good business to me. <<

I'm sure there are x, y, and z factors I haven't thought about yet (like someones Fandex being the ultimate point for point counter to something/everything else) but again, it comes back to the players to make those games work and where tournament is concerned, well dun care. Tournaments are structured, ruled and what not themselves and can reign in these Fandex's if TO's wanted too, which is kinda what they do anyways.

Food for thought, I guess. Going way far the other way.

1. The dead horse is dead, you can no longer Riptide + Buffmander.
2. The old Heldrake is gone, good thing too.
3. Fandex is not a reality, otherwise you'd see it in the statistics.

You have just blown your own argument away.

If there are Codexes that can not fight Eldar - which there are - then they are OP (which they are) QED.

Perhaps if people like you stopped defending cheese units all the time we might be able to get some agreement on fixing the problem units.

Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

 Daba wrote:
Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

Thank you.

Don't mind Morden though, he's already resisted the call of reason quite a few times.

morgoth wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

Thank you.

Don't mind Morden though, he's already resisted the call of reason quite a few times.

Yeah the majority of people who understand and agree that the Wave Serpent is massively OP and worse now in 7th Ed are obviously playing a different game.................

Again the only point of comparison is that OP unit A is not as broken as OP unit B - not that they are both broken or work together......sheesh

I think looking solely at tournament results skew the perception of a given army's power level. Tournament winning lists generally adhere to the select few efficient power builds for each army, so if one army has a single build that is grossly OP, it might have more success than a army that has a number of power builds that are just highly OP. To me, it becomes far more clear from a more casual perspective.

To beat a casual Eldar list, many armies often have to resort to tournament style builds to have a real chance. Does a casual Chaos Marine list really stand a chance against an army that can spam psuedo-rending shooting with its basic troops, as well as loads of other shooting AP2 without even trying? What about a single unit of wraithguard with d-scythes running around in a WS? The carnage that single unit can cause to a power-armour army all by itself is incredible, and can be very difficult to counter for these armies. A single wraithknight can swing a casual game so far out of whack, that its over by turn 3. My group has one Eldar player in the mix, and he doesn't even try to put out a tournament worthy list, and we all struggle to even keep in the running (Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Chaos Daemons make up the other armies in our group).

The Eldar codex itself is masterfully done when it comes to internal balance and synergy. Just about EVERYTHING has a use and has an appropriate points cost (for the most part anyway), even the less popular units such as Swooping Hawks and Fire Prisms. The only one that is less than great are Banshees. I put them in the same boat as Khorne Bloodletters, useful in certain situations, really good as a backline counter-attack unit, but overall, there are better ways to spend the points. The only other codex that comes close when it comes to internal balance and synergy is Chaos Daemons, and even that book has its share of clunkers.