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They didn't get the nickname "Space Cheese" on accident in my local area. It just shows how bad Tau/Eldar/Daemons are, because compared to other meqs, Wolves are 100% cheddar.

Play Space Wolves counts as Templars and be done with it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Play Space Wolves counts as Templars and be done with it.

LOL. I couldn't bring myself to do that in 5th with BA.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

And how do you get that 10/5 Squad anywhere? It's either Land Raider or walk, which is the issue.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

PPM is exactly what we are talking about, not a plastic pushing scenario where I may or may not be able to arrange the situation you describe.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

PPM is exactly what we are talking about, not a plastic pushing scenario where I may or may not be able to arrange the situation you describe.

Then this is all in a vacum that means nothing.
If it was just bout PPM why take out the dice

Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

Not over many games, it can't. The mathhammer will catch up to you. Just like right now, BA will probably lose 65-70 games out of 100 against SW. If you and I play twice, and we each win once, you might say they are even, but over 100 games, you can see that they are not. There is no way I can "put together" BA to be good against SW.

Righteous Zeal was an extremely fluffy rule, and it wasn't until the 5e faq that it became a scoring liability.

What made Righteous Zeal nice is that it gave BT extra movement to clash with opponents quicker while simultaneously making them a threat in both your turn and theirs. Combine this with the ability reroll attacks army wide and they were very competent in melee, even with their basic troops.

Now? Don't bother. 4e also didn't use the laughable TLOS rules, so you could actually run hordes across the board without being shot to pieces through minuscule gaps between terrain features.

Righteous Zeal is really easy to fix (post faq nerf)- simply combine it with standard LD tests. If you pass you Zeal forward, so it doesn't trigger off single wounds anymore. Combine this with the Crusader USR to allow extra running distance, and you get a truly mobile foot army. Sprinkle in some close combat love (rage, furious charge, rerolls, what have you) and I would actually play Black Tide instead of Black (insert different chapter here)

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

Not over many games, it can't. The mathhammer will catch up to you. Just like right now, BA will probably lose 65-70 games out of 100 against SW. If you and I play twice, and we each win once, you might say they are even, but over 100 games, you can see that they are not. There is no way I can "put together" BA to be good against SW.

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:


Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

"I deny your challenge." Whoops, looks like that Chapter Tactic isn't going to help you be better at fighting now, sorry about that.

And you tell the character who didn't accept the challenge to stand still, do nothing, and get wailed on by the rest of the squad, while your challenge character gets to beat on that character's squad with his boosted stats and equipment.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Righteous Zeal was an extremely fluffy rule, and it wasn't until the 5e faq that it became a scoring liability.

6th edition actually.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Righteous Zeal is really easy to fix (post faq nerf)- simply combine it with standard LD tests. If you pass you Zeal forward, so it doesn't trigger off single wounds anymore. Combine this with the Crusader USR to allow extra running distance, and you get a truly mobile foot army. Sprinkle in some close combat love (rage, furious charge, rerolls, what have you) and I would actually play Black Tide instead of Black (insert different chapter here)

Agreed. It's not even hard and doesn't have to break any existing rules.

Martel732 wrote:
Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

Good Yes, Great no.
It give them Favored Enemy of a type chosed at the start of the Game, for me it is usualy ends up being Infantry. If I can get them close and the Assualt I am looking at over 60 Re-Rollable hits.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

Good Yes, Great no.
It give them Favored Enemy of a type chosed at the start of the Game, for me it is usualy ends up being Infantry. If I can get them close and the Assualt I am looking at over 60 Re-Rollable hits.

Rerolling ones to-hit. Preferred Enemy isn't reroll to-hit anymore.

Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

The priest added 16 hits and you also now get the re-roll on Damage so those 36 hits I pulled off about 30 wounds iirc.
This is not a one time thing, it happens over and over, game after game.

 Anpu42 wrote:

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Or instead of spending points on the Wolf Priest to make a substandard (compared to Grey Hunters) unit work, you can take Grey Hunters and then a divination Rune Priest or Thunderwolf Lord.

I really didn't like what Phil Kelly did with the Space Wolves. Basically, although they supposedly have a range of choices, really there're only a few options worth taking.

Rune Priests
Grey Hunters
Long Fangs

Thunderwolves as a unit are fairly overpriced for their ability, although a Wolf Lord on thunderwolf is awesome.

Anything else, including even the "legendary" thunderwolves are basically page filler.

Re-rolling 1s, if we use Blood Claws charging, 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks, half hit for 30 hits, a sixth should be 1s, so 10 1s, re-rolling those should give 5 hits for a total of 35 hits, against marines that would be 17.5 wounds instead of 15. Is an extra 2.5 hits worth the cost of the Wolf Priest?

Statistical aberrations do happen, but those aren't something to base army list selection on.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

The priest added 16 hits and you also now get the re-roll on Damage so those 36 hits I pulled off about 30 wounds iirc.
This is not a one time thing, it happens over and over, game after game.

Does the priest let you reroll ALL misses, or just "1"s? Because that's a big difference.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Or instead of spending points on the Wolf Priest to make a substandard (compared to Grey Hunters) unit work, you can take Grey Hunters and then a divination Rune Priest or Thunderwolf Lord.

I really didn't like what Phil Kelly did with the Space Wolves. Basically, although they supposedly have a range of choices, really there're only a few options worth taking.

Rune Priests
Grey Hunters
Long Fangs

Thunderwolves as a unit are fairly overpriced for their ability, although a Wolf Lord on thunderwolf is awesome.

Anything else, including even the "legendary" thunderwolves are basically page filler.

Re-rolling 1s, if we use Blood Claws charging, 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks, half hit for 30 hits, a sixth should be 1s, so 10 1s, re-rolling those should give 5 hits for a total of 35 hits, against marines that would be 17.5 wounds instead of 15. Is an extra 2.5 hits worth the cost of the Wolf Priest?

Statistical aberrations do happen, but those aren't something to base army list selection on.

Yes you are correct and I do play every Space Wolf Unit in the Book, but sometimes it is fun just to pull out my Blood Claws.

Trying to beck on topic again:
>I truly see no reason Black Templars can not be and Assult based Army.

The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.