Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BT originally came out in the Armaggeddon codex back in third. There were also three other armies released in the same book. Kult of Speed being my favorite. It was a good start but like the other three armies in the book, it was more of an insert existing army +1 than a full on Army codex. Then you actually got a full codex update sometime in 4th. That was cool and all and you had some fun toys added in. Now your rolled back into the marine book, pretty much where you started. Your not like the DA, SW, and BA who have had their own codexs since 2nd ed. BT have pretty much just returned home. I'm not one of those all marines in one book haters or supporters, so I myself don't care, but I can see why BT players would and for that you have my sympathy of the situation. However, you can either whine about it for the next 4 years or look at what you do have and charge forward. Maybe its the return of the 2-3 LRC lists that popped up when BTs were first released. I really don't know. Just how bad of an assault unit is a full unit of assault Centurions lead by a tricked out Chapter Master in an LRC? Expensive point wise, sure, but thats why you have other LRCs running cover full of other cheap choppy bits. Will it work? I donno know, I'm in no position to try. I do know people laugh at my 15 man blood claw unit on paper until it hits their lines at full strength thanks to the LRC they were riding in.

However, just a little anecdote for your loss of HTH prowess. I also play Orks. In third thanks to the Waagh special ability my Nobs struck before Marines and orks with marines. With the 4th ed codex, I lost my Waagh and gained furious charge so now my nobs now strike with marines and my boys after marines. With 6th edition and the change to furious charge, my Nobs now strike after marines and the orks now strike simultaneous with Necrons and Tau for gods sake. Since the game is all about rolling as many dice as possible, the +1 strength is lost to all of the lost attacks for every boy/nob who is killed before they ever get to swing. It only took two books to completely gut ork CC effectiveness (we gained a ton of shooting to compensate). We have lost so much that made playing Kult of Speed fun and in truth its now hard to play an effective KOS style army. So like I said, I know your pain a bit, but my trukks are still out there and my wagons rolling forward.

Things change and you just have to change with it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

Deploying standard AlmightyWalrus response:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Crimson Fists and Black Templars are every bit as much "First Founding" as the Imperial Fists Chapter. The fact that there was a Legion with the name of one of them doesn't mean that the Imperial Fists Chapter can claim all the history of the Heresy as theirs and no one else's. The Legions no longer exist; the fact that some Chapters have the same names as the non-existant Legions doesn't matter.

As an example, let's pretend that the Imperial Fists pre-heresy Legion was called the Über Legion. Once the Heresy resolves, they split into the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and the Soul Drinkers. Why would any of these Chapters have a greater claim to status and recognition than any of the others?

The Imperial Fists Legion is the Imperial Fists Chapter just as much as it is the Black Templars Chapter or the Crimson Fists Chapter. The Chapters of the Second Founding ARE the Original Chapters, because there were no Chapters before that.

Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

This, pretty much. Really though, the biggest issue is not so much the Codex but what 6th edition did to assault units/armies. Maybe the army will actually be playable when the game gets updated (although I kind of doubt it)... not really all that positive I know, but my Wolves and Nids are sad about it as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

Which is really amusing, considering that this "just another Power Maul" has its own pillar inside the artifact chamber of Helbrecht's Flagship

On the subject of second founding chapters:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Founding

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

Although in his defense, the Ultramarine’s Master of Sanctity, Chaplain Cassius, is also packing a bog-standard crozius and suit of PA.

Chaplains: we don’t need fancy toys and armor; we’re just going to kill you with our unbridled hate and our symbols of office.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
On the subject of second founding chapters:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Founding

I'm not even going to look at the link; Warhammer wikia allows fan-created stuff as canon (and yes, I know there's no "true" canon). It lacks integrity.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

So basically, you're the Thousand Sons of the codex.

Eh, could be worse, at least your more playable then that, even Ahriman is worse then all your SC's.

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agree, but they updated to fluff about psykers. They love psykers now which doesn't explain why they don't have a librarians. I would also consider the characters about just as bad as the chapter tactics as well.

Wikia is no less valid than your opinion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wikia is no less valid than your opinion.

You linked to it and then didn't say anything. I'm backing my argument up with logic. You're not making any sense at all. I'm not using my opinion as a source to back my opinion up.

The First Founding Chapters still use the same colours and heraldry as the original Legion. They usually are based on the same homeworld and are rooted in the same culture and traditions as the original Legion.

The Second Founding Chapters started form scratch. They pick new colurs, new heraldry (even if that may be inspired by some older conventions), new homeworld, and will invariably also develop their own culture and traditions.

Thus the First Founding Chapter for all intends and purposes is still the originally created Legion, just reduced in size, while the Second Founding Chapters are entirely new entities. The history of the Imperial Fists Chapter dates back to the beginnings of the Great Crusade. The history of the Crimson Fists Chapter dates back to the end of the Scouring.

The Templars are the Fists First Company. Theyve been there all along and more than earned their spotlight. Keep an eye out for their HH stuff soon!

As far as their 40K incarnation is concerned, theyre garbage. I converted my vanilla Marines to Templars to play something a little different. Now theyre the same crap only watered down. So I sold them. Worst games I ever played.

As an Ork player, I feel your pain. BT and Orks are bros 4 lyfe, as evidenced by several posts ITT. If this game was less gak I'd have a Templars army alongside my boyz

One 'fix' I think you should consider is just playing 30k instead.

Black Tide *is* the 30k meta from what I can see, and despite being entirely marines the legion army books are really, really interesting - I'm sure one of them would be a match for the Templars, and if not, just use Black Templars old codex or SM: BT CT.

I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

So basically, you're the Thousand Sons of the codex.

Eh, could be worse, at least your more playable then that, even Ahriman is worse then all your SC's.

eh Ahriman is under rated. people tend to focus on his lack of divination. at the end of the day though he IS a mastery 4 psyker with some reasonably good stuff.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

It doesn't grant a tangible asset that can be used, it merely increases the average of your running distance. The average might increase but they are still limited to 6 inches which is the same as every other marine.

Meanwhile other chapters get completely new abilities or enhancements in their tactics. For instance iron hands get regeneration or scars get an enhanced cover save making them better at something. If the second die from crusader was added to the roll rather than using the highest I think it'd actually be of benefit.

Under RZ they were able to cover huge distances which was a huge part of their signature, but with Crusader they aren't able to cover any more ground then any other chapter is capable of. They might be more consistent in that movement but it's no better in range. A crusader moves 6 inches at max just the same as everyone else but everyone else gets unique abilities or save enhancements which are actual tangible boosts.

Crusader offers no benefit on the charge either in increased range or in consistentcy so it's very limited in application compared to other tactics that will be of benefit every shooting phase,, combat phase , or when taking wounds etc.

Raven Guard for instance grants scout, 1st turn stealth, doubles their jet pack movement in two phases, and grants re-rolls in combat. That's 4 separate buffs all of which directly help them not only get into assault but also improves their fighting ability.



Adamantium Mantle is limited to being attacked by a psyker. If there are no opposing pyskers it has absolutely no benefit, meanwhile all other chapter tactic abilities can be used in virtually every game regardless of what the opponent runs as they are not limited in needing a specific type of opponent to be used.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

As paulson games explained in the post above mine, it doesn't actually do anything to increase melee prowess beyond the rare challenge where it actually matters (most challenges are ROFLstomps in one way or another anyway). White Scars get better at using bikes (their "thing"), Salamanders get better flame weapons and flame defenses (their "thing"), Raven Guard get sneaky and better Jump Packs (their "thing"), Ultramarines get a little bit of everything (their "thing"), Imperial Fists get the siege vibe and disciplined bolter lines (their "thing"), Templars get... rerolls in challenges? What about the rest of the Crusader Squad? Are they just scrubs who aren't specialized in close combat in any way beyond "having a chainsword"?

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

The tactics don't DO anything?

 paulson games wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

It doesn't grant a tangible asset that can be used; it merely increases the average of your running distance. The average might increase but they are still limited to 6 inches which is the same as every other marine.
Meanwhile other chapters get completely new abilities or enhancements in their tactics. For instance iron hands get regeneration or scars get an enhanced cover save making them better at something. If the second die from crusader was added to the roll rather than using the highest I think it'd actually be of benefit.
Under RZ they were able to cover huge distances which was a huge part of their signature, but with Crusader they aren't able to cover any more ground then any other chapter is capable of. They might be more consistent in that movement but it's no better in range. A crusader moves 6 inches at max just the same as everyone else but everyone else gets unique abilities or save enhancements which are actual tangible boosts.

>Yes that is a benefit; You can move Faster, the chance of you running 1” has been cut in half.
>So you should be as fast as Eldar?
>So the fact that you lost a Special move makes the new Move worthless?

Crusader offers no benefit on the charge either in increased range or in consistency so it's very limited in application compared to other tactics that will be of benefit every shooting phase,, combat phase , or when taking wounds etc.

>No, but your HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT does.
>No, but CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS does

Raven Guard for instance grants scout, 1st turn stealth, doubles their jet pack movement in two phases, and grants re-rolls in combat. That's 4 separate buffs all of which directly help them not only get into assault but also improves their fighting ability.

>Stealth for One Turn for anything on a 25mm base basically, this does not benefit their Jump Pack equipped units, Terminators, Bikes, or Centurions.
>Yes Raven Guard gets TWO mediocre units that benefit from double Jump Pack rule.

Adamantium Mantle is limited to being attacked by a Psyker. If there are no opposing Psykers it has absolutely no benefit, meanwhile all other chapter tactic abilities can be used in virtually every game regardless of what the opponent runs as they are not limited in needing a specific type of opponent to be used.

>So, you gain no benefit for fighting Tau or other Black Templar Armies.

Let’s see what you get:
Army Wide Rules:
>Crusader: A better than average chance of Running more than 3”.
>Adamantine Will: 5+ Save vs. Psychic Save
>Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: ALL Characters have Mastercraft and Rending in Challenges.

Limited Use:
>Sweeping Advances: I+1d6+1d3 [This under Limited use because Terminators and Centurions Can Not Sweeping Advance]
>Crusader Squads: With the choice to take a Hidden Power Weapon and the ability to not have a Character within the Squad allowing you to deny the Challenge System.

What your Special Characters give you:
HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT
>Crusade of the Wrath: Army Wide once a game Hatred and Fleet during the Assault Phase. So Re-Rolls to Hit to go along with your Fleet.
>The lmperium's Sword: His Unit gets Furious Charge.
CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS
>Unmatched Zeal: 6” of Fearless and Hatred.
>Rites of War: 12” LD10 for Moral Checks.
>It Will Not Die: Regeneration
THE EMPEROR' s CHAMPION
>Fearless: Fearless for the Unit he is in.
>Can now be your Warlord.

Except for maybe the Rites of War I do not see a Useless Rule. I see lots of rules that make you better at Assault than Shooting.

By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

What army does it look like I play? Squats?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

What army does it look like I play? Squats?

Cool Squats!

That was not directed at you, but Black Templar Players in general.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

You don't always need to play with something to know it is horribly overcosted. Example: Sanguinary Guard from BA. Of course, eventually, I did play with them and they died like little bitches to plasma vets just as I knew they would.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

You don't always need to play with something to know it is horribly overcosted. Example: Sanguinary Guard from BA. Of course, eventually, I did play with them and they died like little bitches to plasma vets just as I knew they would.

Ok, I like to use a scientific approach to things. Math can tell you what the result should be.
Once is a Fluke
Twice is Coincidence
Three times is proof