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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




In the case of warhammer 40K, math is completely predictive over a large number of samples. I don't need to use the Sanguinary Guard to know they suck. Their pts/W ratio is far too low. I can use previous experience to be predictive and fit that with the math.
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
In the case of warhammer 40K, math is completely predictive over a large number of samples. I don't need to use the Sanguinary Guard to know they suck. Their pts/W ratio is far too low. I can use previous experience to be predictive and fit that with the math.

In you local Meta as you have Described it, Yes.
In my Local Meta 2+ Save units do real well.
So both of our data is Crorrect and Wrong at the same time, that is why I like to head what others are saying.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Does plasma not exist in your meta? If not, that's not a very representative meta.

I'm assuming a certain level of skill at list building in my predictions. 2+ saves without gimmicks in general are garbage in 6th edition.
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
Does plasma not exist in your meta? If not, that's not a very representative meta.

I'm assuming a certain level of skill at list building in my predictions. 2+ saves without gimmicks in general are garbage in 6th edition.

Yes, I run Plasma SPAM List and my other opponent uses Melta/Las-Cannon SPAM.
We also don't Run around the battlefield in the open. We use Terain and Vehicles for cover. I usaly can get withing 12" of what I want to take out and him the same.

I have been looking at the Black Templars and what I think they are capable of and will give them a try a few time when I get the chance to see if my Theories are Correct/Partialy-Correct/Wrong.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If you run plasma spam and you think 2+ saves are good, I just don't know what to say to that. Even if you gave Sanguinary Guard cover, which BA can generate on demand btw, so I don't give a feth about about the table, a 5+ cover save on a 40pt/W model is AWFUL.
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
If you run plasma spam and you think 2+ saves are good, I just don't know what to say to that. Even if you gave Sanguinary Guard cover, which BA can generate on demand btw, so I don't give a feth about about the table, a 5+ cover save on a 40pt/W model is AWFUL.

Remember Rule #1: there is always an exception to the Rule.

You can’t hit what you can’t see.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

Becouse sometines you have to leave the cover. An assualt from behined a building using my Jump Packs to get within 5"-7" and then Assualt. The odds of being hit be enough Plamsa to whipe out the squad are slim to none.

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?

I play the game diffrently.
We just blast the out of each other and still have fun.

I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




 Anpu42 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

Becouse sometines you have to leave the cover. An assualt from behined a building using my Jump Packs to get within 5"-7" and then Assualt. The odds of being hit be enough Plamsa to whipe out the squad are slim to none.

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?

I play the game diffrently.
We just blast the out of each other and still have fun.

I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.


I think at this point you are just trolling.

Plenty of BT players have provided their personal experience and provided countless examples of why BT just dont cut it (from a Chapter Tactics and BT Playstyle Perspective) with the new book, myself included.

It IS that bad. We have seen it and experienced it first-hand.

It's easy for someone to say 'I just adapt and overcome' when they play an army that isn't largely useless on the tabletop. It's pretty telling when you realize there is hardly anyone talking about BT (save BT players lamenting what we once had), or most BT players have sold their army/play counts-as Templar for a more effective Chapter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:11:02


 
   
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No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.


That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




XenosTerminus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.


That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.


I would agree. I mean, BT shoot decently, but I don't think that's what BT players are looking for. Hell, I turned the BA into a shooting list, but it's still lame.
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




Martel732 wrote:
XenosTerminus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.


That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.


I would agree. I mean, BT shoot decently, but I don't think that's what BT players are looking for. Hell, I turned the BA into a shooting list, but it's still lame.


Yep. That is how it was in 5th/early 6th as well- the new book hasn't changed the fact BT has been more effective as a shooty army, it's just that we hoped GW would actually give us Chapter Tactics in order to make a reasonably effective CC army (which we could do before, even if shooting was better).
   
Made in us
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Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

More or less correct.
We play the Units we like to Play. Not becouse they are the Best. It is a diffrent Meta, that does not make me a Toll or a Bad Player, just Diffrent.

As for the "Proof" of Black Templars are bad all I have seen is.
"I tryed them and they Sucked."
No reasons as to why from experiance, No BatReps, No Examples, just "They Suck"" or "They Can't Assualt Anymore!"

I whant to know why, not be told "They Just Do Becouse They Can't Do What They Used To Do!"

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

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I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:21:49


 
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

You are one of the few who has told me why your Marines Die in droves.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Anpu42 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

You are one of the few who has told me why your Marines Die in droves.


It isn't too hard to find threads complaining about no cover ion accelerators. Or taking 7 serpent shields to the face very turn. Or bale drakes. Or plasma vets. (Older threads, but they still wreck meq face)
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




 Anpu42 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

More or less correct.
We play the Units we like to Play. Not becouse they are the Best. It is a diffrent Meta, that does not make me a Toll or a Bad Player, just Diffrent.

As for the "Proof" of Black Templars are bad all I have seen is.
"I tryed them and they Sucked."
No reasons as to why from experiance, No BatReps, No Examples, just "They Suck"" or "They Can't Assualt Anymore!"

I whant to know why, not be told "They Just Do Becouse They Can't Do What They Used To Do!"


There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?
   
Made in us
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






XenosTerminus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.


That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.


Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.

I think people need to stop relying so heavily on what they think BT should be ran like and stop relying on the chapter tactics rules. Some lists really revolve around them, like the white scars, but others, you just use the units that make sense in the book and then when you can, you take advantage of the chapter tactics. Like Imperial Fists, they get to reorll ones on bolters, which I know is the main shooting attack of the marines, but really, this is only marginally useful as it doesn't work for the sternguard vets. And their devastators get tank hunters, but I honestly don't see a lot of people taking devastators anyway.

Someone else said they are watered down space marines...HOW?! they ARE space marines. And they get to run further and get rending in a challenge, and can deny the witch on a 5+. Use Helbrecht for an Ultramine style one-use special rule. Its actually like their version of the Waaagh special rule. But to say that you guys are losing horribly using this rule set leads me to believe that you are losing not because of the rulebook, but because of your interpretation of the codex and inability to play it well. People see the chapter tactics rules and think they have to spam whatever involves that rule. Here's a tip, don't spam it. Use it when it comes up to devastating results, but don't force it. Because usually, running is not an optimal choice. But when you need to run, it is so nice to be able to get that extra dice. Challenges don't always come up everyturn, but when they do, rerolling and rending can make a huge difference. Think of their chapter tactics as passive abilities. You play a normal list, and then just take advantage of the perks when they come-up. Unlike some other lists where you would plan to have a bunch of melta-guns/flamers to make use of Salamanders special rules or plan to take a bunch of bolters for IF chapter tactics. Because the BT chapter tactics are so broad, you can literally run any type of list you want and can still take advantage of their special rules. Because Deny the witch and their challenge special rules can also be considered largely defensive.

But still, the Chapter Tactics don't play as big of a part of the army as some of you are making it out to be. It is more about the units, your placement, and your strategy than relying on one or two special rules. We have all the same units as those other space marine chapters, actually more because of the crusader squad option and the ability to take an LRC as dedicated. All this moping over the new BT codex seems undeserved in my eyes. People selling their armies. Good riddance. The Black Templar are not for the fearful or weak of heart

No Fear! No Pity! NO REMORSE!

DR:80+S++G++MB--IPw40k12#+D++++A++/fWD013R++T(T)DM+

"War is the greatest act of worship, and I perform it gladly for my Lord.... Praise Be"
-Invictus Potens, Black Templar Dreadnought 
   
Made in se
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Sweden

 Anpu42 wrote:


I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.


You play a Chapter that has the best MEQ Troops choice in the game, which is good because it CAN adapt. How the hell do you magically adapt a Crusader Squad to take on Daemonettes, Monstrous Creatures or even a wave of Hormagaunts in CC? You have the option of backing off and shooting, because you have both Bolters and CCW/BP. Crusader Squads don't. They're not a threat.

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.

 Icculus wrote:
XenosTerminus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.


That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.


Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.

I think people need to stop relying so heavily on what they think BT should be ran like and stop relying on the chapter tactics rules. Some lists really revolve around them, like the white scars, but others, you just use the units that make sense in the book and then when you can, you take advantage of the chapter tactics. Like Imperial Fists, they get to reorll ones on bolters, which I know is the main shooting attack of the marines, but really, this is only marginally useful as it doesn't work for the sternguard vets. And their devastators get tank hunters, but I honestly don't see a lot of people taking devastators anyway.

Someone else said they are watered down space marines...HOW?! they ARE space marines. And they get to run further and get rending in a challenge, and can deny the witch on a 5+. Use Helbrecht for an Ultramine style one-use special rule. Its actually like their version of the Waaagh special rule. But to say that you guys are losing horribly using this rule set leads me to believe that you are losing not because of the rulebook, but because of your interpretation of the codex and inability to play it well. People see the chapter tactics rules and think they have to spam whatever involves that rule. Here's a tip, don't spam it. Use it when it comes up to devastating results, but don't force it. Because usually, running is not an optimal choice. But when you need to run, it is so nice to be able to get that extra dice. Challenges don't always come up everyturn, but when they do, rerolling and rending can make a huge difference. Think of their chapter tactics as passive abilities. You play a normal list, and then just take advantage of the perks when they come-up. Unlike some other lists where you would plan to have a bunch of melta-guns/flamers to make use of Salamanders special rules or plan to take a bunch of bolters for IF chapter tactics. Because the BT chapter tactics are so broad, you can literally run any type of list you want and can still take advantage of their special rules. Because Deny the witch and their challenge special rules can also be considered largely defensive.

But still, the Chapter Tactics don't play as big of a part of the army as some of you are making it out to be. It is more about the units, your placement, and your strategy than relying on one or two special rules. We have all the same units as those other space marine chapters, actually more because of the crusader squad option and the ability to take an LRC as dedicated. All this moping over the new BT codex seems undeserved in my eyes. People selling their armies. Good riddance. The Black Templar are not for the fearful or weak of heart

No Fear! No Pity! NO REMORSE!


Yes, we can take dedicated transport Land Raiders. Whoop-dee-doo.

And yes, I can run any list I want and take advantage of the BT Chapter Tactics, but that doesn't really matter when the tactics themselves have a neglible impact on the game. Further, the entire thread has been more or less one long explanation for why playing a "normal" (i.e., for BT, CC) list doesn't work, even WITH the Chapter Tactics. As you say yourself, most of the time the Chapter Tactics doesn't matter. You can't plan around the CT, which means it's BAD. At least Imperial Fists players know that they'll get more bolter hits.

 Icculus wrote:

Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.


I think you'll find that we think that BT are supposed to be able to get into CC at all. When the only way to get into CC is via Land Raider, the army doesn't work as a CC army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:56:43


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:


Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.


6th Edition is the 'shooty' edition. The Templars were treated no differently than any other CC focused army. I think the new Tyranids Codex pretty much proves GW has no intention of letting any army be purely CC oriented. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is the way the game will be for the next few years.

Grey Knights 7500 points
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Baneblade
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Sweden

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.


6th Edition is the 'shooty' edition. The Templars were treated no differently than any other CC focused army. I think the new Tyranids Codex pretty much proves GW has no intention of letting any army be purely CC oriented. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is the way the game will be for the next few years.


Guess why we're complaining. At least the 'Nids have FMCs, fleet, and +3" run distance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:57:49


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:


I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.


You play a Chapter that has the best MEQ Troops choice in the game, which is good because it CAN adapt. How the hell do you magically adapt a Crusader Squad to take on Daemonettes, Monstrous Creatures or even a wave of Hormagaunts in CC? You have the option of backing off and shooting, because you have both Bolters and CCW/BP. Crusader Squads don't. They're not a threat.

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.


Same- BT in 6th have been largely dissapointing unless your opponent purposely handicaps themself.

Adapting at this point is playing the army in a way that may not fit a playstyle that:

A) Fits Templar to begin with

B) Suits our personal taste
   
Made in us
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.


I saw your 1000 point list. It look pretty terrible honestly. Your lone HQ and warlord, a chaplain, was in a 5-man assault squad. This is bad for several reasons. The chaplain has 3+ armor and few wounds. So he is fairly fragile, so putting him with 5 standard marines is not giving him any cover. Also, the zealot special rule allows re-rolls to hit on the assault. You should probably put him with a much larger group, or with a more resilient group that would actually make it to cc. Like either a crusader squad in a LR or with some terminators.
You also had two drop pods and one rhino, and the drop pod guys had some heavy weapons, and the rhino squad had close range weapons. I can tell you that your army would get destroyed by most, if you haven't found that to be true already.
But you also said in that post that you didnt want anyone to criticize or change the list, you just wanted to talk strategy. Strategy is largely based on 4 things.
1. Your list
2. The enemy army
3. The terrain
4. The mission

So we could only discuss one of those 4 things with you. The rest of the strategy is on the board at game time.

And we can get in to CC with Land Raiders, drop pods, and deepstriking. And depending on the board, footslogging is also an option for TH/SS terminators as long as drop pod came in that same turn to take the pressure off of them. I have successfully gotten my units in to melee using all three of these options.

DR:80+S++G++MB--IPw40k12#+D++++A++/fWD013R++T(T)DM+

"War is the greatest act of worship, and I perform it gladly for my Lord.... Praise Be"
-Invictus Potens, Black Templar Dreadnought 
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

XenosTerminus wrote:
There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I don’t completely agree with the whole “Squatting Thing.”
[This might be personally preferences talking]
They could have rolled every Space Marine Chapter except for Space Wolves and Grey Knights into once Codex and made it work.
[SW and GK just have to much unique stuff in them to make a cohesive codex]
They could have also tripled there money and put out one Full Codex for each Chapter.
They decides though to roll Black Templars into the Marine Codex, to me this was a bad idea for many reasons, but the rules are not all of them.

The current version of the Black Templars are written for 6th Edition so some rules had to go to fit. When I read the 6th Edition BRB and saw the Crusader USR, I knew then and there, this was going to be the core of the Black Templars Codex. I knew that Religious Zeal was going to be changed if not outright removed. What I did not expect is the removal of the Vows.

Now in my local Meta, everything they got will make a difference and I know my Meta is not the only one. in the more “Competitive Environment” it probably wont make a difference because every Codex that has come out in the last 3-4 Years has made the 2+/3+ Save worthless. With looking at that, all of the Marine Armies are junk.

I don’t think there was anything that GW could have done to make Black Templars fit into 6th that would have made ANY Black Templars Army/Player Happy.

And yes I am in the “Suck It Up and Move On Crowd” I just try to validate what you have and try to figure out how to make it better rather than just keep posting “Suck It Up and Move On”

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




 Anpu42 wrote:
XenosTerminus wrote:
There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I don’t completely agree with the whole “Squatting Thing.”
[This might be personally preferences talking]
They could have rolled every Space Marine Chapter except for Space Wolves and Grey Knights into once Codex and made it work.
[SW and GK just have to much unique stuff in them to make a cohesive codex]
They could have also tripled there money and put out one Full Codex for each Chapter.
They decides though to roll Black Templars into the Marine Codex, to me this was a bad idea for many reasons, but the rules are not all of them.

The current version of the Black Templars are written for 6th Edition so some rules had to go to fit. When I read the 6th Edition BRB and saw the Crusader USR, I knew then and there, this was going to be the core of the Black Templars Codex. I knew that Religious Zeal was going to be changed if not outright removed. What I did not expect is the removal of the Vows.

Now in my local Meta, everything they got will make a difference and I know my Meta is not the only one. in the more “Competitive Environment” it probably wont make a difference because every Codex that has come out in the last 3-4 Years has made the 2+/3+ Save worthless. With looking at that, all of the Marine Armies are junk.

I don’t think there was anything that GW could have done to make Black Templars fit into 6th that would have made ANY Black Templars Army/Player Happy.

And yes I am in the “Suck It Up and Move On Crowd” I just try to validate what you have and try to figure out how to make it better rather than just keep posting “Suck It Up and Move On”


I am glad you see our plight, and I wish I was more optimistic about things like you are. Fortunately our playgroup house rules and homebrews, so BT can actually be played effectively as a melee army (after core rule fixes and balancing with all armies).

But if/when a vanilla game of 6e needs to be played and I bring Templar? There are really no reasons to play them with BT chapter tactics. The loss of Librarians and emphasis on shooting really make picking Ultrasmurfs or another shooting oriented chapter a no brainer.

Hell, my other SM army is DA, so you can imagine how utterly self-loathing I am at this point as GW has continued to simultaneously crap on what I play from edition to edition. I am used to it and I do move on/adapt, but it's not nearly as enjoyable as it could be.
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

XenosTerminus wrote:
I am glad you see our plight, and I wish I was more optimistic about things like you are. Fortunately our playgroup house rules and homebrews, so BT can actually be played effectively as a melee army (after core rule fixes and balancing with all armies).

But if/when a vanilla game of 6e needs to be played and I bring Templar? There are really no reasons to play them with BT chapter tactics. The loss of Librarians and emphasis on shooting really make picking Ultrasmurfs or another shooting oriented chapter a no brainer.

Hell, my other SM army is DA, so you can imagine how utterly self-loathing I am at this point as GW has continued to simultaneously crap on what I play from edition to edition. I am used to it and I do move on/adapt, but it's not nearly as enjoyable as it could be.


Meta is also a big part. My group is what a lot of what others call a “Friendly/Fluffy”. We have one Tau player with ONE Riptide. Our Chaos Daemon Player has this weird Nurgle List, the main reason he wins if the portal of unending daemon spawn. Out Nid player does not use Flyrants and One Tervigon.
Mostly it is Marine on Marine action.
Even my Space Wolves are mostly Fluffy using Bolter Armed Scouts, Lone Wolves and my Long Fangs do not have x5 Millie Launchers.

The old group was all about the Flavor of month unpainted armies made of Cheese. I have not seen that group in forever and now are probably seeing TauDar Quad Riptide on TauDar Quad Riptide Action.



Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Icculus wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.


I saw your 1000 point list. It look pretty terrible honestly.


That's rather impressive, considering I've never made a 1k points list. Ever.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

Page 77 of the new codex states that BT are a successor chapter.

My blog... http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com

Facebook...
https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est/

DT:60+S++++G++++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k89/d#++D+++A++++/eWD150R++++T(T)DM+++ 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Page 77 of the new codex states that BT are a successor chapter.


Yes. And?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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