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Herzlos wrote:

I don't think there is a logic issue. I hate multiple rule-books, and whilst I'd like some Catachan flavour if it's not in the main codex I won't bother with it. If they launched a Codex: Catachan or a stand-alone supplement then I'd take it, but I'm not going to bring MRB, Codex & supplement.

That's OK, then, it was this idea of "Needing a supplement makes me sad" rubbing up against the idea of "I'd rather just field them as vanilla guard". And it's like, if you're going to do that, you don't need a supplement, so leave them to people who'll use them. But I get what you're saying.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Weremoles riding werewolves riding giant mutant wolf-moles.

Strapped to the torso of a robot that is inside a giant robot, then !

I think the reason most people would rather have extra rules in the main codex instead of supplements is because nobody likes paying $50 for what will ultimately be mostly recycled fluff with 5 pages of rules.

Well obviously, but that's kind of another issue. I don't think the current crop of "Supplements" are good. That doesn't mean the concept has no meaningful/advantageous future.

 Bull0 wrote:
Well obviously, but that's kind of another issue. I don't think the current crop of "Supplements" are good. That doesn't mean the concept has no meaningful/advantageous future.

Good god, no. Supplements are potentially one of the most exciting things GW have (re)introduced to 40K in some time. The potential for generating goodwill and customer satisfaction, while providing extra income and stimulating model sales is frankly boggling.

Unfortunately GW's MO in the last year or two seems to be some pretty solid ideas backed up by flawed execution, which they are a perfect example of.

I love the supplements because of the fluff dumps in them.

I'd love them at half the price and in softback.

Realistically I'm buying them to use the rules during a game, so the 32* pages of (potentially regurgitated) fluff doesn't have much value beyond an initial read, and the "showcase of glorious Citadel miniatures"* is a complete waste of time, whilst the hard back makes it a nuisance.

Even at that, there's less fluff than an £8 novel, and a couple of cards worth of rules, when for the same price I can buy any number of hard back rule books for other systems.

*Taken from the Iyanden Supplement page.

Though I'd still rather they just put the fluff back into the main codex where it used to be, instead of using it as a cynical excuse to sell me 2 books. £90 just for the books to play is pushing it a bit (£30 for "Warhammer 40,000: The Rules", £30 for a Codex and £30 for a supplement). I've got into entirely new games systems with full rules and factions for less than that (X-Wing, Bolt Action, Empire Of The Dead, Flames Of War, Saga).

Herzlos wrote:

Even at that, there's less fluff than an £8 novel, and a couple of cards worth of rules, when for the same price I can buy any number of hard back rule books for other systems.

I'd rather have the fluff in the rule book. I dunno if you've ever been a playtester for a GW product, but sometimes the discussions where stats exist because of outdated fluff rather than game balance can get a bit heated and it helps if you have an 'official' GW product that refutes what they're saying.

That's a pretty obscure requirement to have the fluff in the same book that you need to game with. I've never playtested for GW (I was under the impression that cut back on that to prevent leaks), but I'd rather have some sort of rules-only set for gaming with, preferably with reference cards or spiral bound pages so that I don't need to rely on weights to keep the book open at the correct page.

Edit: I'm very tempted to get the hard cover ripped off and have the book re-bound on spirals for gaming with, with the fluff bound separately. It just seems like such a waste to buy a £30 book and end up with something that's less than a dozen pages long.

Herzlos wrote:
Edit: I'm very tempted to get the hard cover ripped off and have the book re-bound on spirals for gaming with, with the fluff bound separately. It just seems like such a waste to buy a £30 book and end up with something that's less than a dozen pages long.

That was the best thing I ever did with the MRB.

Supplements are a great concept on paper and if GW was a good company they could have reinvigorated the entire franchise with it. However the product is top heavy with too much fluff (something that requires no effort to put in really given how simply it's written), boring and few real unique rules, and are far overpriced. Making the entire supplement thing ultimately useless.

Which is a shame, because $6.99 ~20 page supplements for Catachans, Vostroyans, Iron Guard, Valhallans, Mordians, etc would have been great.

 Harriticus wrote:
Supplements are a great concept on paper and if GW was a good company they could have reinvigorated the entire franchise with it. However the product is top heavy with too much fluff (something that requires no effort to put in really given how simply it's written), boring and few real unique rules, and are far overpriced. Making the entire supplement thing ultimately useless.

Which is a shame, because $6.99 ~20 page supplements for Catachans, Vostroyans, Iron Guard, Valhallans, Mordians, etc would have been great.

Man I would buy every supplement for IG if they put them out at that price, even if there's just a small blurb of fluff, a small painting guide, and rule entries.

 Harriticus wrote:
Supplements are a great concept on paper and if GW was a good company they could have reinvigorated the entire franchise with it. However the product is top heavy with too much fluff .....

Suppliments are the perfect place for faction specific fluff. The problem with them is that they simply don't bring much of worth to the game.

I would love both doctrines for the IG regiments and IG codex supplements. The Imperial Fists and Iron Hands got that treatment, so why not do the same to Catachans and Steel Legion/Vostroyans/you name it?

Vanilla guardsmen with doctrines in the main codex, own army list in their own supplement. Much win. Wow.

 Harriticus wrote:
Which is a shame, because $6.99 ~20 page supplements for Catachans, Vostroyans, Iron Guard, Valhallans, Mordians, etc would have been great.

I'm sorry, but that would be terrible.

The current Marine Codex (and the FW HH books for that matter) have shown us that you can do multiple armies in a single book without the need for pointless expansions and supplements. The Marine Codex contains what many other books (Eldar, Guard and especially Chaos) should have - fluff and rules sections for multiple different factions. It's not a difficult thing to do, and the fact that they don't do it more often is a sign of either greed or incompetence. Maybe both.

Rostere wrote:
... the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands got that treatment...

And it made Iron Hands players so happy to receive their multi-page complete fluff ret-con. Besides, neither army needed a supplement as the core Codex already had specific rules for their army. And those supplements were limited "one company" supplements, detailing the history of a single part of the whole Chapter. More of those is a bad thing IMO. If they're going to do more supplements, make them meaningful ones and not throwaway arbitrary fluff expansions that detail a single bit of a greater whole. The Farsight Enclaves gave lots of information for a real faction of the Tau, and not some random Cadre of Fire Warriors. The Iyanden gave information for an entire Craftworld, not some specific Warhost within a Craftworld. More of that (if we must have more of anything). Less of the single-company nonsense.

Less ADHD too.

We get one Eldar, two Marine, one CSM, three Tyranid....

At least we may have others in the future, but thanks to their bonkers release policy, we don't know.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Well obviously, but that's kind of another issue. I don't think the current crop of "Supplements" are good. That doesn't mean the concept has no meaningful/advantageous future.

Good god, no. Supplements are potentially one of the most exciting things GW have (re)introduced to 40K in some time. The potential for generating goodwill and customer satisfaction, while providing extra income and stimulating model sales is frankly boggling.

Unfortunately GW's MO in the last year or two seems to be some pretty solid ideas backed up by flawed execution, which they are a perfect example of.

Supplements creating variant lists such as Nurgle Plague army of CSM or a something similar are interesting.

Supplements that add in units that should have been in the main codex, or force you to buy them to make a weak codex actually viable (thus generating more revenue) are terrible/despicable.

Digital only supplements also run the risk of creating a 2nd class citizen when it comes to gaming. Don't have a digital reader? Looks like you're way outta luck, putting you at a competitive disadvantage. Not a fan of that. Reminds me of the 2nd edition equipment cards. I remember playing a game and getting ambushed with cards that came in magazines I had no idea existed and had no assess to, and I never want to go back to that situation again; I stopped playing until 3rd.

 Moopy wrote:
Digital only supplements also run the risk of creating a 2nd class citizen when it comes to gaming. Don't have a digital reader? Looks like you're way outta luck, putting you at a competitive disadvantage. Not a fan of that. Reminds me of the 2nd edition equipment cards. I remember playing a game and getting ambushed with cards that came in magazines I had no idea existed or could assess, and I never want to go back to that situation again; I stopped playing until 3rd.

This old chestnut again. You know who else forced supplements on people right? Oh wait...

Do you have a computer? Than you can get a supplement. It isn't that big a deal. How many people play 40k and don't have access to a computer. It isn't like printing out the rules pages is that much of a chore. There's what 4-5 of them in most supplements.

I have no idea who forced supplements on people, so why don't you tell me?

How many people play 40K and don't have a computer? I'd say plenty.

 Moopy wrote:
I have no idea who forced supplements on people, so why don't you tell me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
"Another instance of reductio ad Hitlerum is asking a question of the form "You know who else...?" with the deliberate intent of impugning a certain idea or action by implying Hitler held that idea or performed such action.[4]"

The first paragraph was a joke. The second one was the one you should respond to. Geeze, kids these days.

 pretre wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
Digital only supplements also run the risk of creating a 2nd class citizen when it comes to gaming. Don't have a digital reader? Looks like you're way outta luck, putting you at a competitive disadvantage. Not a fan of that. Reminds me of the 2nd edition equipment cards. I remember playing a game and getting ambushed with cards that came in magazines I had no idea existed or could assess, and I never want to go back to that situation again; I stopped playing until 3rd.

This old chestnut again. You know who else forced supplements on people right? Oh wait...

Do you have a computer? Than you can get a supplement. It isn't that big a deal. How many people play 40k and don't have access to a computer. It isn't like printing out the rules pages is that much of a chore. There's what 4-5 of them in most supplements.

I tried printing them out but they came out wacky, because of all the drop down boxes and so on if printed like 4 pages for 1 page. Printing them sucks big time. And so is lugging your desktop to gaming club.

 Moopy wrote:
How many people play 40K and don't have a computer? I'd say plenty.

Really, because I don't know any. Granted, that is my own personal experience, but I've never met someone at a shop/etc that didn't own or have access to a computer, smart phone or other computing device. Beyond that, I don't know anyone in the US at least who doesn't have access to a print shop, internet cafe or other place you can go to print 4 pages of text for a nominal fee.

And they are a damn sight easier to get a hold of and use than trying to track down back issues of white dwarf were.

I guess jokes don't have to be funny anymore. : /

And I'm older than you Pretre.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I tried printing them out but they came out wacky, because of all the drop down boxes and so on if printed like 4 pages for 1 page. Printing them sucks big time. And so is lugging your desktop to gaming club.

Drop down boxes? ePubs don't have drop down boxes... Are you talking about the iTunes version or something? I don't even think those have drop down boxes.

You just write down the numbers of the pages you want. Go to print and put in the page numbers you want printed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Moopy wrote:
I guess jokes don't have to be funny anymore. : /

And I'm older than you Pretre.

Good for you. Apparently, you lost your sense of humor in your long slog towards your advanced age.

edit: In case you weren't familiar 'kids these days' is also a colloquial expression and doesn't necessarily mean that the person you are talking to is a kid. I feel like I'm having to explain a lot about how humans communicate to you...

It got shot off in the war.

Please stay on topic. -Mannahnin

I believe the Imperial Guard codex will be more than just Imperial guard- Like how Tau Empire has Kroot and Vespid, IG might include Auxila, Navy, and Mechanicus.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Which is a shame, because $6.99 ~20 page supplements for Catachans, Vostroyans, Iron Guard, Valhallans, Mordians, etc would have been great.

I'm sorry, but that would be terrible.

The current Marine Codex (and the FW HH books for that matter) have shown us that you can do multiple armies in a single book without the need for pointless expansions and supplements. The Marine Codex contains what many other books (Eldar, Guard and especially Chaos) should have - fluff and rules sections for multiple different factions. It's not a difficult thing to do, and the fact that they don't do it more often is a sign of either greed or incompetence. Maybe both.

Agreed.

The only thing that could tempt me to collect an IG army would be plastic Steel Legion infantry. Or plastic DKoK (but that'll never happen).

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
I believe the Imperial Guard codex will be more than just Imperial guard- Like how Tau Empire has Kroot and Vespid, IG might include Auxila, Navy, and Mechanicus.

Doesn't the current IG codex already have all of those? I thought that abhumans, naval officers, flyers, priests and techpriests weren't technically part of the Imperial Guard. Come to think of it; are commissars part of the guard, or a separate part of the departmento munitorum?