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 Jadenim wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that this release, following on from escalation is paving the way for lord of war/super heavy slots in the standard codices? I can just see the IG codex adding a Baneblade at the end of the FOC, likewise a Stompa for Orks.

Not sure how I feel about that...

Why sell one book when you can sell mutliple books?

They just released codex knights, an entire codex for 1 model.

Why not codex stompa or codex baneblade? The horrible financial and rules precedent set by publishing an entire codex for 1 large model is troubling to say the least.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Since no one was getting photo of 15mm DF model next to IK model, I had to use a poor copy paste program...

This is slightly incorrect. The height of the Leviathan is to the top of the torso, WITHOUT a base. The height of the Knight INCLUDES the base. I'd adjust for that.

That's maybe a 1/4" difference? Not enough to matter, though. What is clear is this: a 15mm DF Leviathan is too small to be used as a Knight straight out of the box. With conversion, it could be made taller, as well as having some embellishments on it's base to raise it another inch or so. THEN, I'm sure it will be an acceptable stand-in. But it is obvious that the Leviathan is too small, so why is this such a hot topic?

 tomjoad wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Since no one was getting photo of 15mm DF model next to IK model, I had to use a poor copy paste program...

This is slightly incorrect. The height of the Leviathan is to the top of the torso, WITHOUT a base. The height of the Knight INCLUDES the base. I'd adjust for that.

That's maybe a 1/4" difference? Not enough to matter, though. What is clear is this: a 15mm DF Leviathan is too small to be used as a Knight straight out of the box. With conversion, it could be made taller, as well as having some embellishments on it's base to raise it another inch or so. THEN, I'm sure it will be an acceptable stand-in. But it is obvious that the Leviathan is too small, so why is this such a hot topic?

The knight model's torso is huge, if a count as model wasn't the same dimension from the top down, would that not give count as models an advantage when it comes to small and large blast templates?

Yeah, so maybe the Leviathan would STILL be too small. Regardless, the talk now is about the height, which is clearly and obviously much less than the IK model.

 agnosto wrote:
Looks like it includes the super-heavy walker rules so you don't need to run out and buy another rulebook just to use the one model in this rulebook.

Where is that said?

It will be interesting if it does include the Super-Heavy rules. That really makes it a "normal" 40k model rather than an escalation model and further blurs the lines between what most of us consider standard 40k and escalation 40k.

It does also do the stupid thing GW often do, which is place the same or similar special rules in multiple places, making rule updates all the more convoluted.

Isn't base size the only relevant factor there? Just getting back in to 40k so I'm likely wrong.

Yes it is the base size. Where it might matter is more for line of sight issues

Edit: Found it.

 tomjoad wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Since no one was getting photo of 15mm DF model next to IK model, I had to use a poor copy paste program...

This is slightly incorrect. The height of the Leviathan is to the top of the torso, WITHOUT a base. The height of the Knight INCLUDES the base. I'd adjust for that.

That's maybe a 1/4" difference? Not enough to matter, though. What is clear is this: a 15mm DF Leviathan is too small to be used as a Knight straight out of the box. With conversion, it could be made taller, as well as having some embellishments on it's base to raise it another inch or so. THEN, I'm sure it will be an acceptable stand-in. But it is obvious that the Leviathan is too small, so why is this such a hot topic?

Hot topic because one or any combo of the following : 1.) GW haters who still want to play 40k (huh? yup! ) without using their (gw) models, 2.) $30-55 for DF 15mm model versus $110 (ebay) to $150 (with tax) for IK, 3.) Some people dislike look of IK and like look of DF model 4.) DF wanters don't go to GW to game or use it in tournies

Anyways, GW was smart making the IK over 1.75" taller than df 15mm & 2" shorter than df 28mm one...

I wouldn't play against a 15mm df model unless it was elevated to 6.5" overall ... unfair cover for the shorty otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Breotan wrote:
Edit: Found it.

Spoiler:

that is the 28mm one...8.5" tall & $96 - $120 usd

 krazynadechukr wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Edit: Found it.

Spoiler:

that is the 28mm one...8.5" tall & $96 - $120 usd

Feth it. Man up or stay home.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Looks like it includes the super-heavy walker rules so you don't need to run out and buy another rulebook just to use the one model in this rulebook.

Where is that said?

It will be interesting if it does include the Super-Heavy rules. That really makes it a "normal" 40k model rather than an escalation model and further blurs the lines between what most of us consider standard 40k and escalation 40k.

It does also do the stupid thing GW often do, which is place the same or similar special rules in multiple places, making rule updates all the more convoluted.

Its in the release video; they're thumbing through the codex and you can see the rules. 45 second mark.

 plastictrees wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Since no one was getting photo of 15mm DF model next to IK model, I had to use a poor copy paste program...

This is slightly incorrect. The height of the Leviathan is to the top of the torso, WITHOUT a base. The height of the Knight INCLUDES the base. I'd adjust for that.

That's maybe a 1/4" difference? Not enough to matter, though. What is clear is this: a 15mm DF Leviathan is too small to be used as a Knight straight out of the box. With conversion, it could be made taller, as well as having some embellishments on it's base to raise it another inch or so. THEN, I'm sure it will be an acceptable stand-in. But it is obvious that the Leviathan is too small, so why is this such a hot topic?

The knight model's torso is huge, if a count as model wasn't the same dimension from the top down, would that not give count as models an advantage when it comes to small and large blast templates?

Isn't base size the only relevant factor there? Just getting back in to 40k so I'm likely wrong.

It's a vehicle, hull matters. Think a valkaryie model without wings, if it's in hover model, those wings matter when it comes to blast templates, without wings its hard to hit and blast scatter is more likely to not hit the hull. Height isn't the only factor, overall dimension matters.

I'm cool with count as conversions, I've done many myself but I try my best to ensure the conversion is as close in dimensions to the original model as I can and especially if it's a vehicle. If I was going to make a count as knight conversion I would start by having it on the same base and bits ordering that won't be cheap. Whether or not the end goal was emulation or something radical (different than imperial) I would still try my dambdest to ensure the end result was as close as possible to the dimensions of the actual knight model.

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Anyways, GW was smart making the IK over 1.75" taller than df 15mm & 2" shorter than df 28mm one...

I wouldn't play against a 15mm df model unless it was elevated to 6.5" overall ... unfair cover for the shorty otherwise.

I think that's unfair to GW. I worked on a digital model of my own version of Knight off and on again for 4 years... But over that time when ever someone asked about Knights, particularly their scaling, I had a very thorough analysis I'd reiterate. The jist of it was that the scale of the Epic Knight was the same scale as the vehicles and a different scale than Titans. Those who scaled it based on the epic Titans relative to the FW titans would conclude it was about 9.5"... But when you compared an epic Knight to a epic land raider and used that as a basis for the size you ended up with a 40k knight that was between 6.5" and 7" depending on the variant and whether you included the ornamental spikes present on certain variants. That said 6.5" is the correct size based on the old epic Knight models.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Anyways, GW was smart making the IK over 1.75" taller than df 15mm & 2" shorter than df 28mm one...

I wouldn't play against a 15mm df model unless it was elevated to 6.5" overall ... unfair cover for the shorty otherwise.

I think that's unfair to GW.

I don't care how they got the IK to be smack in the middle of the DF models. I for one am on the GW band wagon, and I think my purchase of my knight, and the codex, will keep me in the good graces of GW. Unfair, scoff...

More likely scenario - GW got lucky with the height of the knight!

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Hot topic because one or any combo of the following : 1.) GW haters who still want to play 40k (huh? yup! ) without using their (gw) models

You seem perplexed at the idea that someone can both dislike GW yet still like 40K. You also seem to have some objection with non-GW models being used in 40K.

Is this the case, and if so, why do you feel this way?

 krazynadechukr wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Anyways, GW was smart making the IK over 1.75" taller than df 15mm & 2" shorter than df 28mm one...

I wouldn't play against a 15mm df model unless it was elevated to 6.5" overall ... unfair cover for the shorty otherwise.

I think that's unfair to GW.

I don't care how they got the IK to be smack in the middle of the DF models. I for one am on the GW band wagon, and I think my purchase of my knight, and the codex, will keep me in the good graces of GW. Unfair, scoff...

I bought it all too, after 4 1/2 years of not buying anything besides FW's books. I'm just trying to say I don't think GW planned its size with regards to the DF model. I believe GW can be malicious and cut throat, I just don't think this is an instance of that. I think this was a sincere attempt to portray a knight, without any of the baggage of prohibiting DF's model. They had a previously established rationale that predates DF's model.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Since no one was getting photo of 15mm DF model next to IK model, I had to use a poor copy paste program...

This is slightly incorrect. The height of the Leviathan is to the top of the torso, WITHOUT a base. The height of the Knight INCLUDES the base. I'd adjust for that.

That's maybe a 1/4" difference? Not enough to matter, though. What is clear is this: a 15mm DF Leviathan is too small to be used as a Knight straight out of the box. With conversion, it could be made taller, as well as having some embellishments on it's base to raise it another inch or so. THEN, I'm sure it will be an acceptable stand-in. But it is obvious that the Leviathan is too small, so why is this such a hot topic?

The knight model's torso is huge, if a count as model wasn't the same dimension from the top down, would that not give count as models an advantage when it comes to small and large blast templates?

Isn't base size the only relevant factor there? Just getting back in to 40k so I'm likely wrong.

It's a vehicle, hull matters. Think a valkaryie model without wings, if it's in hover model, those wings matter when it comes to blast templates, without wings its hard to hit and blast scatter is more likely to not hit the hull. Height isn't the only factor, overall dimension matters.

I'm cool with count as conversions, I've done many myself but I try my best to ensure the conversion is as close in dimensions to the original model as I can and especially if it's a vehicle. If I was going to make a count as knight conversion I would start by having it on the same base and bits ordering that won't be cheap. Whether or not the end goal was emulation or something radical (different than imperial) I would still try my dambdest to ensure the end result was as close as possible to the dimensions of the actual knight model.

Well it's a super heavy walker. As a walker it's the base size right? Something different about super heavy?

 aka_mythos wrote:
That said 6.5" is the correct size based on the old epic Knight models.

Agreed, 6 - 6.5". That is what we figured when doing the calcs for a potential Armorcast imperial knight.

 Alpharius wrote:
More likely scenario - GW got lucky with the height of the knight!

Not sure why Mark stayed away from that size, since he could do the size calc as well as anyone else. He did make a 5.5" resin version though.

Just for a bit more fun, here is another slightly small potential knight. It even has the right weapons!

MechWarrior Dark Age Forestry Mech:

For me personally, I like the Leviathan, would like to support Dreamforge, but have little chance of persuading anyone to ever play Iron Core (assuming I like it myself).

I'm sure that I will also purchase a Knight at some point. I'm not trying to 'send a message' to GW, I just want an excuse to buy a Leviathan (which I have already bought...).

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Hot topic because one or any combo of the following : 1.) GW haters who still want to play 40k (huh? yup! ) without using their (gw) models,

Played DnD, never bought a WotC model, mainly because they are ugly as feth and a waste of plastic.

You can like a univers/game and not the models/company, there is nothing wrong with that.

krazynadechukr Wrote: [
Hot topic because one or any combo of the following : 1.) GW haters who still want to play 40k (huh? yup! ) without using their (gw) models, 2.) $30-55 for DF 15mm model versus $110 (ebay) to $150 (with tax) for IK, 3.) Some people dislike look of IK and like look of DF model 4.) DF wanters don't go to GW to game or use it in tournies

Anyways, GW was smart making the IK over 1.75" taller than df 15mm & 2" shorter than df 28mm one...

I wouldn't play against a 15mm df model unless it was elevated to 6.5" overall ... unfair cover for the shorty otherwise. ]



I would like to address some of these things you say, as both a GW "Hater" and the owner of a DFG Leviathan.

1) I have been playing GW games, and 40k specifically for over 21 years, so if my 2 DECADES of experience points to the fact that GW ran their company more customer focused in the 90's, it is because I have personally experienced this. Not quite sure how 21 years of (not completely) blind loyalty makes ME the hater, but if in lets people sleep better at night to call me names, that's their business.

2) The DreamForge Leviathan was made over 3 years ago, wayyyyyy before GW was even considering doing a knight. I have a resin DFG Leviathan model that they used for the basis of their plastic kit. The DFG Kickstarter for the plastic kits, both 4.5 inch and 8 inch models was over a year and a half ago. Also still before GW had began production of the knight. Conjecture: DreamForge game made a model to fill a demand GW was not filling themselves; for a 40k scale Knight. Conjecture: GW saw the success of DFG, realized that they could have been making money all along, and finally produce their own knight model. Conjecture: GW produce their own knight model in between the 2 scales that DFG uses in order to invalidate the after-market model. DFG prices were set before GW released their Knight, thus GW had the opportunity to price theirs competitively, but chose not to do so.

3) I can't argue this one. People's opinions are their own, and everybody is entitled to theirs. Just as long as people don't confuse their opinion with facts.

4) The people who bought DFG Leviathan did so (almost 2 years ago) knowing that they would not be able to use them in official GW stores or tournaments. The release of GW's official knight model does not change this fact.

Personaly, I like both models, but if the rumors that CSM can't use a knight are true, then there is no need for me to buy GW's "Official" model.

"... one or any combo of the following..."

Calm down.


Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka.
Reds8n

 Zweischneid wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they had a Knight Titan book coming up to go along with the release of the plastic kit and rules.

Funny enough, they do (who would've thought).

Spoiler:

Knights of the Imperium
“I sense the impatience of my armour’s former wearers. I wait, letting the swarms fully take the bait of the servitor convoy. Right now, the beasts will be tearing open the vehicles and slaughtering the servitors. Only a few will have autonomy enough to fight back, but most will not have the capability to even raise a fist in their own defence.
Their deaths will serve a greater purpose.
A series of explosions from the upper reaches of the temple makes the decision for me. The ground shakes as buried reactors go into meltdown.
‘Knights of the Imperium,’ I shout. ‘We ride!’”

Apocalyptic action with massive War Machines
Features House Cadmus, Tyranids and Adeptus MechanicusTies in with the new Codex: Imperial KnightsExplores the traditions and customs of the knightly houses
The swarms of Hive Fleet Hydra descend upon the world of Vondrak, and the Knights of Cadmus answer the call to war. Baron Roland of Cadmus seeks to throw off the yoke of Adeptus Mechanicus control, but the lords of the Red Planet do not easily relinquish their vassals, and they will do anything to ensure that Cadmus remains bound to Mars. With the fate of Vondrak at stake and the designs of a feared Martian adept upon them, can the Knights of the Imperium survive long enough to repel the hated xenos?

Knights of the Imperium is a 128 page, hardback novella by Graham McNeill. Exclusive to games-workshop.com, blacklibrary.com and Games Workshop Stores

Novellas aren't real books, we need to stop pretending they are and paying book price for them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Hot topic because one or any combo of the following : 1.) GW haters who still want to play 40k (huh? yup! ) without using their (gw) models

You seem perplexed at the idea that someone can both dislike GW yet still like 40K. You also seem to have some objection with non-GW models being used in 40K.

Is this the case, and if so, why do you feel this way?

Seems to me that people being unwilling to accept non-GW models in a GW game is really no different from people who are unwilling to experiment with things like Chaos Knights in friendly games. It's about drawing lines on what is acceptable to both players.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Seems to me that people being unwilling to accept non-GW models in a GW game is really no different from people who are unwilling to experiment with things like Chaos Knights in friendly games. It's about drawing lines on what is acceptable to both players.

Nice try, but no. Unless of course you can show where the rules require you to use Citadel Miniatures.

And for the umpteenth time, this issue wasn't about stopping people from using Chaos Knights, it was about people wanting to use Chaos Knights acting incredulous at the idea that using Chaos Knights wouldn't be automatically accepted, or the general idea that just because you can house rule something doesn't mean that everyone should accept your house rules or be lambasted because they want to follow the rules.

So as I said, nice try.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Seems to me that people being unwilling to accept non-GW models in a GW game is really no different from people who are unwilling to experiment with things like Chaos Knights in friendly games. It's about drawing lines on what is acceptable to both players.

Nice try, but no. Unless of course you can show where the rules require you to use Citadel Miniatures.

And for the umpteenth time, this issue wasn't about stopping people from using Chaos Knights, it was about people wanting to use Chaos Knights acting incredulous at the idea that using Chaos Knights wouldn't be automatically accepted, or the general idea that just because you can house rule something doesn't mean that everyone should accept your house rules or be lambasted because they want to follow the rules.

So as I said, nice try.

careful what you wish for. Page 2 of the BRB tells us that all the rules in the book about 'models' are referring to the citadel miniatures used to play the game.

 judgedoug wrote:
Man, I am a huge huge fan of Epic - from Adeptus Titanicus through Space Marine and Titan Legions. I own approximately 60 Titans - a dozen Warhound battlegroups, a dozen Reavers, dozens of Warlords and some Imperators (and over a dozen Gargants and over a dozen Eldar titans as well). I've had every edition of Knight released in Epic from the original awkward Knights in 1989 or so to the redesigned 1993-1994 era.

This kit looks like crap.

The legs are tiny and the torso is about 50% larger than it should be. The side-view pics say it all. What an ungainly turd.

One of the main turnoffs for Warmachine for me is the visual style, especially of the Warjacks. This Knight looks like a Knight Paladin banged a Warjack and produced this awful offspring.

How entirely disappointing.

This exactly.

Got my knight this morning - it arrived yesterday at work but I'm on holiday at the moment so went in today to pick it up.
I got it from Gaming Figures which I am trying to champion because although it doesn't have the best prices, I've found them very reliable & contact you straight away if there's a problem (eg if an item isn't in stock - they give you a choice to cancel, send other items separately, or wait for it to come in stock) - ie great customer service. I have absolutely no affiliation with them & I'm am just one of their customers.
Just thought I'd share.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Seems to me that people being unwilling to accept non-GW models in a GW game is really no different from people who are unwilling to experiment with things like Chaos Knights in friendly games. It's about drawing lines on what is acceptable to both players.

Nice try, but no. Unless of course you can show where the rules require you to use Citadel Miniatures.

And for the umpteenth time, this issue wasn't about stopping people from using Chaos Knights, it was about people wanting to use Chaos Knights acting incredulous at the idea that using Chaos Knights wouldn't be automatically accepted, or the general idea that just because you can house rule something doesn't mean that everyone should accept your house rules or be lambasted because they want to follow the rules.

So as I said, nice try.

Completely agree with you HBMC (what does it stand for??). If I want to use something that's not 100% legit like using the FW Great Unclean One in a CSM army using the Escalation rules, which I did recently, I asked my opponent if he was ok with it. I wouldn't, at all, been offended if he said 'no' but, luckily for me, he said 'yes'. He also went on to beat me in what was one of my most enjoyable games in some time.

HOWEVER - this is all starting to get a bit boring & tedious reading through the back & forth arguments about this issue while I'm trying to find each tidbit of actual news.
I am not a MOD & I might be risking sanction but that's my view. Don't mean to offend.

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We were asked if we could do a size comparison for the Imperial Knights, with a Riptide, Eldar Wraithknight and a Warhound... so here they are fighting it out over Dheneb Capitalis in our events hall.

As I thought, bigger than the riptide but smaller than the wraithknight.