Sarouan wrote:

Don't you think that's the reason why they did a Kickstarter? So that they can do it on their own?

That's why I believe it's important to talk with the people behind this and decide if they can be trusted or not. It's easier to get to them with this Kickstarter...since they need to convince people to back it, after all.

It's just that talking about it here...I don't believe they come to Dakka if they want to get in touch with their fans. I mean, this is not exactly the place you have in mind when you think about Super Dungeon Explore...

 cincydooley wrote:

I think the reason they did a KS is because they literally couldn't have done it, financially, without it.

I'm trying to make an informed decision, and I believe others here can benefit from the discussions all of us have to better inform their decisions.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

No, I don't agree with this at all. A business owner always gets paid for their time. They're not a charity. Their time is worth something too, and "breaking even" isn't the point of running a business. They want to enjoy what they do, and make a profit as well. If you think they're making too much money off of it don't back.

 DaveC wrote:
Now that's a stretch goal people have asking for for along time happy days

Anfpd that's two Loot stretch goals in a row although will probably be available to buy as well.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Now that's a stretch goal people have asking for for along time happy days

Anfpd that's two Loot stretch goals in a row although will probably be available to buy as well.

Neat, hope they do one for Hearts as well.

 greenskin lynn wrote:

i'm liking the freebie stretch goals so far, and don't mind so much the paid add-ons, though i'm just going to let my basic 100 pledge ride

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Spoiler:

nkelsch wrote:

 -iPaint- wrote:


I get the feeling that people are becoming more and more entitled with miniatures and gaming projects as Kickstarter itself ages. They're expecting tons of freebies, lots of stretch goals, and constant feedback from creators. It's really disappointing to see the fun and excitement completely sucked out of a campaign due to the negativity, whining, and general "me me me"
attitude that plagues the KS comments and updates sections. Seems like people just can't be satisfied with what they're getting any more....

Also, it's great to see all the doom and gloom predictions a few days into a month-long campaign.

~iPaint

The issue is: someone is literally saying "Give me an interest free loan and in 10-18 months I will give you your money back in product."

If you want to make full MSRP profit on your models, then *YOU* assume the risk, you front the capital or get a loan and pay the interest.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want deep discounts. We all know what it actually costs to make these products, we also know what they sell it to retailers to so we feel like we should be rewarded for our 'interest free loan' and want product at that 40-45% discount of MSRP that retailers get it at. That is not entitlement since they are asking us for our money. If they want large profit, then they need to release this at retail and I will pay retail for the benefit of having it immediately. In fact, I wish I could get it right now the way they promised 9 months ago for 2014 Q1 release...

EXCLUSIVES are one of the ways Kickstarter campaigns hedge their profit... You may not be getting as deep a discount, but you get stuff you *CAN'T* get at retail. If they want to do no exclusives, so be it, but you immediately see the response... "Not an exclusive? I don't need to get it now then, I will wait for retail". If those add-ons were exclusives, every single one of the 2000 backers would have immediately added 10$. RIght now, there are 2203 backers which means 220,300$ is for 100$ pledges. that is 31k of add-ons or 'doubles'. That is an average of 14$ per backer on add-ons... It is clear people are not pledging the add-ons in force.

I am not saying exclusives are 'required' or even 'good' but it drives pledges... and when your core discount is weak, that is a hard sell. People are more tolerant of paying overpriced add-ons which help dilute the loss on the core set when the core set is a retailer discount.

So don't give me the "Support a company, the honor of backing this KS' Bullcrap. They are asking for an interest free loan and to have us assume the risk... 10% discount from MSRP is not a good deal for 9+ months of our waiting. Overpriced stretch goals which lack value lack incentive to pledge.

Also: while I don't care about exclusives, if someone said something was, it needs to stay that way. If you want to have no exclusives, fine. But don't make them and then renege on it because you miss-managed your company, got caught with your pants down with a competitor's product and are broke and see a way to sell exclusives for more cash. Exclusives help KSs as you can deeper discount your core set and then guarantee overpriced add-ons to recoup that cost. You have to drive down the core value to get people in.

A-friggin-men.

I don't even sniff at a KS unless its going to be 30% off or more. If I can get this for 20% off retail at Miniature Market on release, why the hell am I buying it 12+ months in advance for 10% off? And don't give me the "we cant sell it cheaper" BS. If Miniature Market is selling it for 20% off, they bought it for 50% off. So you can sell it for $50 to them, but not $60 to me a year in advance?

Or you could just never buy it all if the kickstarter doesn't get funded. There's that too. A discount is nice, but why don't you always just wait for retail for a deeper discount? If you always only join kickstarters for a discount that's fine, but understand that's not what kickstarter is for.

What its "for" is up for debate, but IMO its not to make a large profit a year in advance of actually delivering product. The infrastructure of new molds, design, etc is what the product manufacturer should got, not all that AND to line their wallets. A good campaign roughly breaks even after operating costs, with the benefits being you got an interest free loan and get to sell your product at retail.

Again, why is a backer now treated less well than a distributor/store a year later?

No, I don't agree with this at all. A business owner always gets paid for their time. They're not a charity. Their time is worth something too, and "breaking even" isn't the point of running a business. They want to enjoy what they do, and make a profit as well. If you think they're making too much money off of it don't back.

 cincydooley wrote:
Hey Cyporiean--

Can you comment at all on how they'd do 3D acrylic like that? I'm looking at this from an "acrylic counter" perspecitve (like litko or warsenal); are there other ways to do acrylic that is multidimensional?

 cincydooley wrote:
Hey Cyporiean--

Can you comment at all on how they'd do 3D acrylic like that? I'm looking at this from an "acrylic counter" perspecitve (like litko or warsenal); are there other ways to do acrylic that is multidimensional?

 Cyporiean wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Hey Cyporiean--

Can you comment at all on how they'd do 3D acrylic like that? I'm looking at this from an "acrylic counter" perspecitve (like litko or warsenal); are there other ways to do acrylic that is multidimensional?

Acrylic is just another type of plastic, so you'd pour it into a mold.

 cincydooley wrote:

Gotcha. As I don't much moulding, does it require metal moulds? Are you fine using regular spin cast moulds with it? Like I asked before, why use acrylic VS the plastic they already use?

No judgments here; genuinely curious.

Just realized that when they say "acrylic" they could mean "polyester resin" which would make a lot of sense.

 Sarouan wrote:
It's like going to the bank asking for a loan. You never go for pleasure, you do it because you have no other choice. Crowdfunding is a way to gather money without having the exorbitant rates (or just having a big no-no as anwer, 'cause the bank doesn't believe in your success).

It's not a honor, it's a gift of trust from their backers. There is always a huge risk of having it totally wasted, and it's understandable to be very careful before pledging.

There is nothing wrong about not believing in this Kickstarter. This will be your choice and that's respectable in itself.

It's just that I don't see why complaining about it existing at all if you don't have the intent to pledge. After all, you're not forced to; if you decide to keep your money for yourself, it suits yourself and that's perfectly fine. It's just that I believe only those who back this project are right in their ranting if something goes wrong. The others are only making noise for nothing.

nkelsch wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

No, I don't agree with this at all. A business owner always gets paid for their time. They're not a charity. Their time is worth something too, and "breaking even" isn't the point of running a business. They want to enjoy what they do, and make a profit as well. If you think they're making too much money off of it don't back.

But yet they ask for charity via KS?

If they want to 'run a business' and 'make a profit' then they front the cash or get a loan and assume the risk. Having everyone else assume the risk and then them getting all the reward in the form of profit is a bad deal for us, the backers. We are the investors, and for us fronting them cash, an interest free loan 9-18 months in advance, then we want the return on investment. If the KS gets their molds made, development time recouped, artists paid and inventory for retail, they shouldn't be expecting or trying to profit on top of that. They can 'profit' when they get to retail and their own money is paying for the inventory which they can sell for MSRP.

We should be getting product at almost the same rate retailers would via normal distribution points. They better end up making enough LOOT add-ons to increase the value or they may see a wicked backslide. They are getting better, but are not quite there yet.

 cincydooley wrote:

I just want to clarify that I'm not in the "don't have the intent to pledge" camp; I'm simply very torn. I love the game. I playtested the new rules and think they're great. I very much like John, Deke, Chris, and Ross as people. I want them to do very well. And I want them to give me some compelling reasons to back. Here, I think many of us (nklesch specifically) are doing a lot of our risk-benefit analysis as a groupthink. I know it helps me.

Ninja Pop as a business simply makes me leery because of the past history AND because they haven't published anything "on their own" yet.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
SPm isn't asking for charity- they're asking to fund a project. They're askng for money in return for a product, and the future support of the project. Kickstarter is not your standard loan- the backer assumes the risk of losing the money they donated, and the project creator public humiliation if they don't follow through. Financial suicide if you will.

Also, are you saying that they should provide this product for free? Their hard work means nothing? No one works for the "privilege" of providing you a product. People are compensated for their time. That cost will be added to the kickstarter.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

As to this portion, no one is saying that paying salaries and wages isn't part of the KS money. However, that is entirely factored into their production costs. The point being made was this: KS is not usually seen as a vehicle for a company to make excess money, usually seen as profits. The purpose of KS is to generate money to produce the product. This in turn drastically reduces the production cost margin, as there are no loans, interest or debts to pay back, increasing the profit margin on the product once it is sent to market. That is where the company should be making its profit. So, many KS backers view a company that doesn't respect its backers enough to give them some kind of "bonus" or "reward" in the form of insanely cheap game components thrown in for giving them the money to produce their product, to be miserly or unappreciative. No one expects them to work for free, or to not feed their children, or to give over their core goods away for free. But to make money above and beyond what they need to get their game to market, and to rake that money in and not respect the people who gave it to them seems supremely snobby and unappreciative.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
SPm isn't asking for charity- they're asking to fund a project. They're askng for money in return for a product, and the future support of the project. Kickstarter is not your standard loan- the backer assumes the risk of losing the money they donated, and the project creator public humiliation if they don't follow through. Financial suicide if you will.

Also, are you saying that they should provide this product for free? Their hard work means nothing? No one works for the "privilege" of providing you a product. People are compensated for their time. That cost will be added to the kickstarter.

Nobody is saying they're asking for charity. They are offering their product in return for you to fund their company. They have no problem with financial suicide though, as evidenced by their 2 other KSs. Public humiliation doesn't enter into the picture either. They aren't even ashamed that their other 2 KSs are horribly late. It doesn't publicly bother them, and they have become angry at conventions when people have brought this up to Ninja Pop. It just is.

"Also, are you saying that they should provide this product for free? Their hard work means nothing? No one works for the "privilege" of providing you a product. People are compensated for their time. That cost will be added to the kickstarter."

As to this portion, no one is saying that paying salaries and wages isn't part of the KS money. However, that is entirely factored into their production costs. The point being made was this: KS is not usually seen as a vehicle for a company to make excess money, usually seen as profits. The purpose of KS is to generate money to produce the product. This in turn drastically reduces the production cost margin, as there are no loans, interest or debts to pay back, increasing the profit margin on the product once it is sent to market. That is where the company should be making its profit. So, many KS backers view a company that doesn't respect its backers enough to give them some kind of "bonus" or "reward" in the form of insanely cheap game components thrown in for giving them the money to produce their product, to be miserly or unappreciative. No one expects them to work for free, or to not feed their children, or to give over their core goods away for free. But to make money above and beyond what they need to get their game to market, and to rake that money in and not respect the people who gave it to them seems supremely snobby and unappreciative.

 Sarouan wrote:


Well, good for you if you feel that way. But honestly...what do you expect us, backers, to say in answer? Who are you really trying to convince, apart those who think like you and would never have backed this project anyway?
.