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2014/03/10 04:20:18
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
I will say that from a business perspective, assuming that GW has to come out with those DV models in some fashion before they switch starters and that their target audience has limited spending money. You would want to open the gates with the model with bad rules so you would still sell some from wow factor and omgchaos release. Then you would follow with releases of models that people will eventually buy due to good rules or desire such as havocs/chosen and cultists.
This way you get people who would normally have only bought the chosen/cultists to also buy the helbrute due to aforementioned factors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/10 04:38:44
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2014/03/10 05:18:07
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
You're making the classic forum mistake of assuming that the people complaining about the former are the same people complaining about the latter.
And, as mentioned, the fact that this isn't an advancement of the story. It's fleshing out backstory... which many of us are fine with, as story. When it comes to adding rules into the game, even some of us who like having new story would like to have all armies with current edition rules before they go adding new armies into the mix.
2014/03/10 12:51:27
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has. For the most part, they're kinda just... there. They were involved in a search for a chaos relic, got owned by the Dark Angels, and that's... well, that. Even their reason for going renegade, while unique, didn't have anything to do with the larger setting (ANY larger setting) but instead is just their own personal story, as opposed to dragging an entire sector into rebellion or something like that. Unless their codex added something huge (which so far I've yet to hear of), in their current state they might as well just have been someone's non-canon fanfic and it wouldn't have affected any significant portion of the setting (or even really any insignificant portion of the setting) either way whether they were official "canon" or not.
They didn't even interact with anyone BUT the Dark Angels yet. No deals with fallen, daemons, major chaos players, MINOR chaos players even... they're basically just out there by themselves, got thwacked, and that's that. They're the epitome of "filler villain" right now.
Again, maybe the codex will add something? With their current state I find it kinda hard to imagine WHAT it would add, though. It'd take a pretty drastic deus ex to prop them up into something significant in such a short time frame given their current resources (which I'm under the impression is not much), I think.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 04:16:35
2014/03/11 11:12:49
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has. For the most part, they're kinda just... there. They were involved in a search for a chaos relic, got owned by the Dark Angels, and that's... well, that. Even their reason for going renegade, while unique, didn't have anything to do with the larger setting (ANY larger setting) but instead is just their own personal story, as opposed to dragging an entire sector into rebellion or something like that. Unless their codex added something huge (which so far I've yet to hear of), in their current state they might as well just have been someone's non-canon fanfic and it wouldn't have affected any significant portion of the setting (or even really any insignificant portion of the setting) either way whether they were official "canon" or not.
They didn't even interact with anyone BUT the Dark Angels yet. No deals with fallen, daemons, major chaos players, MINOR chaos players even... they're basically just out there by themselves, got thwacked, and that's that. They're the epitome of "filler villain" right now.
Again, maybe the codex will add something? With their current state I find it kinda hard to imagine WHAT it would add, though. It'd take a pretty drastic deus ex to prop them up into something significant in such a short time frame given their current resources (which I'm under the impression is not much), I think.
I couldn't have explained it better.
If the plan was to make them the new "base" renegade chapter tha's a complete lack of inspiration and effort from the guys that wrote their story so far.
Right now they seem just another custom chapter made from scrap by a player that did want it's own warband. Nothing more than that. No reference to any Black Crusade, no reference whatsoever to anything else in the game bar Dark Angels. I cannot see how this "advances the story".
Creating a supplement with a line of BG such as "Huron found a new terrible devastating weapon" would have advanced the story more..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 11:17:40
2014/03/11 14:23:23
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea that they know the Dark Angels secret, and are wracked by mutations.
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
Aye, they know it, so what? Any attempt to tell the truth to the inquisition will result in some sceptical looks at the heretics police records, their mutated asses and heartily laughed at. Even if a suspicious inquisitor digs into the Dark Angels, they can just tell him, how they kicked the slaughter's ass and they try to get some petty revenge by instilling conflict and mistrust. The Tyranids knowing about the Dark Angels would have advanced the plot further
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2014/03/11 14:44:31
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has... .
Nothing wrong with an understated background. It makes them far more credible and interesting to me than Shon'Tu gibberish.
The studio should be kept well away from Huron. The Forge World books are excellent pieces of writing and theme, and nothing the studio are capable of producing would add to that background.
Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
2014/03/11 14:45:38
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
That's absolutely true.
It's just a matter of priority.
Nobody would have complained if they did already release a supplement for Red Corsairs and at least a generic supplement "Traitor Legions" that contains tactics similar to the loyalist ones. Or if we had a supplement for any of the 4 gods. That's because having a supplement for the remaining 8 traitor legions would be too much, it seems...
For me just knowing from an official source that they WILL release them sooner or later would be enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 14:46:39
2014/03/11 14:46:18
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
GW merely expand and flesh out the setting. The timeline doesn't advance beyond the upcoming 13th Black Crusade (more or less).
This Chapter having the Dark Angels most darkly known secret is obviously a big deal for the Dark Angels. It's another point of interest in a wide setting.
Obviously it would have been nice to get something different but perhaps GW want to flesh out The Crimson Slaughter for people that bought the starter set and are new to the game. Who's to say that The Crimson Slaughter won't become the next Red Corsairs in terms of leading the Lost and the Damned.
Nothing wrong with an understated background. It makes them far more credible and interesting to me than Shon'Tu gibberish.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your statements. However, my post was in reply to someone claiming they were a MAJOR renegade chapter, which they clearly aren't.
(although my own opinion is that while minor warbands are fine, getting a codex supplement for a minor warband is rather over-the-top. ...not that getting a codex supplement for a single company is any better, mind you, although the Imperial Fists one did at least advance parts of the setting a bit)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 14:50:41
2014/03/11 15:29:26
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
THE STORY
In the entire galaxy there is nothing more cursed than a traitor.
Excommunicated, hated and hunted, the Crimson Slaughter turned from the Emperor’s Light and have since carved a bloody trail through the Imperium. But before they betrayed their oaths and turned to the worship of the Dark Gods, they were the Crimson Sabres, stalwart and loyal. This is the story of their fall, as Scout Captain Anzo Riegler, a lone voice of reason amidst Chaos, becomes an unwitting pawn in his Chapter's demise.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2014/03/11 15:48:45
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea that they know the Dark Angels secret, and are wracked by mutations.
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
My problem with them knowing about the Fallen is that the entire Dark Angels Legion would be on them in no time, and not just, as in Dark Vengeance, only a small group of Dark Angels/a Company.
but It is a truth universally acknowledged that adding monkeys to things -- ones sex life aside of course -- makes them noticeably better. Even if they be foul xenos ones.
At the risk of damning him with faint praise I've found his audio books/drama to be ... alright -- not bad but not great either.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
I'm still wondering when we'll hear more about this Summer Campaign (in terms of leaks).
thenoobbomb wrote:
My problem with them knowing about the Fallen is that the entire Dark Angels Legion would be on them in no time, and not just, as in Dark Vengeance, only a small group of Dark Angels/a Company.
Well the fact that the Dark Angels (and there Successor Chapters) would be forced to hunt them down would weaken the defence of the Imperium as a whole, what with The 13th Black Crusade on the horizon. The might be a small part of the puzzle, but the could play a massive role in the future. Obviously we'll never know because we won't get past that date, but the possibility is there.
reds8n wrote: Pandorax was most enjoyable
At the risk of damning him with faint praise I've found his audio books/drama to be ... alright -- not bad but not great either.
Might check it out, could be worth it for generic background.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 16:08:15
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
What story has been advanced?
Yea, this. Please tell us exactly how far into M42 the storyline has been advanced.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 16:12:42
2014/03/11 16:18:13
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
THE STORY
In the entire galaxy there is nothing more cursed than a traitor.
Excommunicated, hated and hunted, the Crimson Slaughter turned from the Emperor’s Light and have since carved a bloody trail through the Imperium. But before they betrayed their oaths and turned to the worship of the Dark Gods, they were the Crimson Sabres, stalwart and loyal. This is the story of their fall, as Scout Captain Anzo Riegler, a lone voice of reason amidst Chaos, becomes an unwitting pawn in his Chapter's demise.
That is actually interesting. Though I try to keep a good spirit about all this, if you put "red corsairs" and "astral claws" in the right places, it would fit.
On the "advance the story" thing, I have a point though : Imagine my 4k points ultramarine army, pristine and clean, are suddenly betraying the imperium and going rogue. And become CSM. I know have 4k points of smurf paperweight.
On the "advance the story" thing, I have a point though : Imagine my 4k points ultramarine army, pristine and clean, are suddenly betraying the imperium and going rogue. And become CSM. I know have 4k points of smurf paperweight.
Pretty sure no one at GW is stupid enough (from a business standpoint) to advance the story in a way that an established playable faction/sub-faction (Ultramarines have Chapter-Tactics so they count) gets eliminated, barring the few times they WANT to eliminate a faction (Squats).
...at least, I hope no one's that stupid.
2014/03/11 19:04:16
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
I just finished reading the novel "Crimson Dawn" yesterday. It actually rewrites (it's not a retcon since the same author) some stuff established in Dark Vengeance:
Spoiler:
The entire episode on the planet was a Chaos trick. There was a fake Inquisitor who sent out a distress signal and various chapters (Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and the Dark Angels' Deathwing) pledged aid, but withdrew once the Crimson Sabres committed their entire chapter (Master Gabriel of the Deathwing refers to them as "base curs" and "renegades"). They arrive on the world and find the wreckage of an Imperial Chimaera with the corpses of a squad of Stormtroopers that have been there for decades. They witness what looks like a Chaos ritual that's led by what appears to be a Tzeentch daemon (Bird-skull, robe that changes colors constantly) and only after killing people realize that they've actually slaughtered villagers celebrating Imperial saints - the daemon repeatedly made them see attacking cultists when they were really villagers fleeing in terror, causing the Crimson Sabres to slaughter "enemies" mercilessly. This is what haunts them, and they banish the daemon and burn the corpses to hide all evidence, and go into the Warp to figure out how to atone for what they've done. The book ends with the implication that they are now haunted by these ghosts and the ghosts can possess them, as they are in the Warp trying to figure out what they need to do.
DIFFERENCES FROM DARK VENGEANCE So the entire fall from grace was part of a Chaos trick, and there was no curse given to them for killing cultists, they are basically haunted by innocent people that they were tricked into murdering in cold blood. An underlying theme of the novel is that "change is coming" - Scout Sergeant Riegler gets promoted to Captain, Captain Kranon (the future Helbrute) gets thrown in jail for "cowardice" because for three days the others couldn't reach him, and the Chapter themselves have these visions that make them violent and constantly haunt them, basically like the movie Paranormal Activity.
I hope the codex supplement explains more in depth how they became evil, because right now they're more tragic heroes than villains. They were tricked into committing atrocities, and know that what they did was unforgivable, and are trying to decide how to make amends.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 19:07:20
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2014/03/11 19:34:34
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Actually, something being written by the same writer is still a retcon. Retcons written by the same writer can be accepted a bit more easily than ones that weren't, sometimes. Although in the end, at least for me, it depends on how smoothly the retcon was, how necessary it was, and whether the new background is better than the old or not.
Moving along...
So we start with the original fluff which was them being driven beserk by Khorne in part due to their own fault (their own bloodlust and savagery causing them to slaughter everything so mercilessly that Khorne took notice). They go insane because the voices won't leave them alone.
Now instead they were still apparently savage enough that the other marine chapters withdrew rather than fight alongside them, but they were tricked by Tzeentch and feel sorry about the people they killed. So far it seems implied they go insane from the sheer guilt from the voices.
Meanwhile the summer campaign paints them as devout loyal followers of Chaos trying to enlighten mankind to follow its true natural masters. The new retconned version goes against this even more than the original did!
............sheez.
By itself I think the retconned version could have been pretty good. For a warband getting its own codex though, so far it seems to spit in the face of anyone who wanted a warband that's like, actually loyal and sincere in its belief of Chaos (which, IMHO, probably constitutes most players since that lets them feel more like winners rather than duped losers).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 19:36:09
2014/03/11 19:43:33
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
TiamatRoar wrote: Actually, something being written by the same writer is still a retcon. Retcons written by the same writer can be accepted a bit more easily than ones that weren't, sometimes. Although in the end, at least for me, it depends on how smoothly the retcon was, how necessary it was, and whether the new background is better than the old or not.
Moving along...
So we start with the original fluff which was them being driven beserk by Khorne in part due to their own fault (their own bloodlust and savagery causing them to slaughter everything so mercilessly that Khorne took notice). They go insane because the voices won't leave them alone.
Now instead they were still apparently savage enough that the other marine chapters withdrew rather than fight alongside them, but they were tricked by Tzeentch and feel sorry about the people they killed. So far it seems implied they go insane from the sheer guilt from the voices.
Meanwhile the summer campaign paints them as devout loyal followers of Chaos trying to enlighten mankind to follow its true natural masters. The new retconned version goes against this even more than the original did!
............sheez.
By itself I think the retconned version could have been pretty good. For a warband getting its own codex though, so far it seems to spit in the face of anyone who wanted a warband that's like, actually loyal and sincere in its belief of Chaos (which, IMHO, probably constitutes most players since that lets them feel more like winners rather than duped losers).
Pretty much it's implied that they go insane via a combination of guilt over the voices + possession (they are physically haunted) + being in the Warp, although unless there's something in the supplement to explain the transition or it's basically like Star Wars Episode III where Anakin goes from "What have I done?" to slaughtering children in a very short timeframe; it's almost a caricature - We murdered innocent people.. let's kill everything else to help with the guilt!
Right now they don't even seem like bad guys, they seem more like the Dark Angels - they have a dark secret that haunts them (literally in this case) and want to atone for it, but the rest of the fluff paints them as psychopathic killers who no longer have any redeeming qualities. In fact if they weren't Chaos I could see them being painted in that light.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 19:45:49
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2014/03/11 21:57:27
Subject: Re:New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Wrecker wrote: How bout we start seeing some chosen? Or havocs even!
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's what I want!
With everything leaking being of the Astra whatever persuasion, I think we're out of luck until closer to the campaign release.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2014/03/12 01:58:28
Subject: New Chaos Space Marines Release- March 7 Update - Preorders Up
Nothing really wrong with Crimson Slaughter. But with so many other potential warbands/chapters to choose from, its disappointing to see a new group with little fluff and few fans -get its own supplement.
Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Red Corsairs, ANY of the original traitor legions.. every one of those would have sold more books (and models) then the Crimson Slaughter.
Clearly the shareholders have no idea what GW and the hobby even is. Because gaffes like this should never happen. An opportunity to cash in on their fans' interests squandered in favor of a bland pet warband.
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