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2) At highly competitive level (which given the blatant black and white conclusions you make should be a fair assumption) and tournament level you will very, very rarely find anyone who hasn't brought enough AA to handle the immediate threat of flyers, so there will likely not be such a situation. Even if their AA is unsuccessful you can bet that the Vendettas will not get priority from snapfiring AT unless their situation is very dire.

At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels. Making them cheaper does very little to make them viable. HP 2 vehicles in 6th are just bad, even War Walkers aren't that great despite being the best of the bunch.

I'm not sure if Vendettas will be that competitive anymore either as a +40 pt increase is pretty significant. Honestly, from these rumors it doesnt feel as if IG will have any place in competitive 40k regardless so maybe it won't matter which one is best.

I just can't believe there is a discussion on taking HKMs, who does that? I haven't seen one of those in.. well pretty much ever.

Looks like The Lord commissar has gone from the gw website

The searchlight nerf was to be expected since gk/inq chimera don't come with one stock. A random 20% price increase on Chimera is pretty damn rude and unexpected. The vendetta needs a nerf, but the Chimera is very well balanced for 6th ed.

The wynern is brutal and cheap, but if they remove a bunch of tanks tanks with no models players that went through the effort of conversions will be pissed.

I'm starting to worry we are going to get the nid treatment.

So much whinging in this thread. All I can see is a new codex that's shaping up pretty well, particularly excited about the Pask rules and new orders.

Anyone who wants to sell their chimeras as a result of this 10 point price increase, PM me and I can offer you above-ebay rates.

I think GW really dropped the ball so far.....

Everything that was viable in the last codex got MOAR expensive, and the part that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned yet is that Infantry Squads are still the same price (50 pts.)

So mech spam is more expensive so I can field less vehicles
Vendetta spam is more expensive so I can field less vehicles
Infantry are same costed (with possibly less options)
Artillery is gone

and so far we have less expensive Sentinels.... yay

The only hope I have left (and given GW's track record I dont see them being this insightful) is that those awesome orders that are the fundamental core part of the Imperial whasisname CAN BE ISSUED INTO DUDES IN A VEHICLE.

if not...well welcome to Tankaggedon because thats the only competitive option as of yet.

but my wallet thanks you GW, since now everything is more expensive, I dont need to purchase models from a modeling company.... well played Nottingham... well played.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The searchlight nerf was to be expected since gk/inq chimera don't come with one stock. A random 20% price increase on Chimera is pretty damn rude and unexpected. The vendetta needs a nerf, but the Chimera is very well balanced for 6th ed.

The wynern is brutal and cheap, but if they remove a bunch of tanks tanks with no models players that went through the effort of conversions will be pissed.

I'm starting to worry we are going to get the nid treatment.

I'm a little bit puzzled as to why they would remove anything from a codex, especially something that encourages people to buy and convert models.

Probably just another example of GW making atrocious business decisions...

KommissarKarl wrote:
So much whinging in this thread. All I can see is a new codex that's shaping up pretty well, particularly excited about the Pask rules and new orders.

Anyone who wants to sell their chimeras as a result of this 10 point price increase, PM me and I can offer you above-ebay rates.

Maybe people are upset that models they've bought are no longer a usable unit. Its fine that you're happy, but a lot of Guard players will find portions of their army unplayable, which is not something to be praised or applauded.

If half of these leaks turn out to be true, GW will have truly dropped the ball yet again. No reason for unit cuts like this, and also demonstrating they have no clue how to balance their own game.

Sad really. I'm just disappointed. I was hoping this codex would have got me excited, but now...eh.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'm a little bit puzzled as to why they would remove anything from a codex, especially something that encourages people to buy and convert models.

Because it encourages them to scratchbuild or buy models and/or conversion parts from third-party manufacturers. GW's fundamental rule right now is "every unit has a kit, every kit has rules", with no conversion or counts-as. So if there isn't a plastic kit on the shelf labeled X then unit X has to be removed from the codex, and every box on the shelf must have rules to use it straight out of the box. This is why units with no current model are removed from the codex, and box of random scenery bits now has its own special rules.

 Blacksails wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
So much whinging in this thread. All I can see is a new codex that's shaping up pretty well, particularly excited about the Pask rules and new orders.

Anyone who wants to sell their chimeras as a result of this 10 point price increase, PM me and I can offer you above-ebay rates.

Maybe people are upset that models they've bought are no longer a usable unit. Its fine that you're happy, but a lot of Guard players will find portions of their army unplayable, which is not something to be praised or applauded.

If half of these leaks turn out to be true, GW will have truly dropped the ball yet again. No reason for unit cuts like this, and also demonstrating they have no clue how to balance their own game.

Sad really. I'm just disappointed. I was hoping this codex would have got me excited, but now...eh.

What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.

 Peregrine wrote:

2) At highly competitive level

There is no such thing in 40k, really. The rules have always been atrociously balanced and they were not even designed for competative games in the first place. Yes 40k would greatly benefit from a functionally balanced ruleset but in reality that still wouldn't allow for truly competative games given the complexity of the dozens of unit types, weapon systems, vehicles etc in 40k. GW is showing no inclination to even play test its rules never mind create a tournament friendly wargame so expecting a balanced codex is frankly naive.

Getting over exicted about something as marginal as a 30% increase in the cost of power weapons is really not worth the effort.

If you want a competative wargame then something like Infinity would suit you better than 40k ever will.

KommissarKarl wrote:

What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.

Sure, you can use FW rules to field griffons and such, but why shouldn't people be upset that GW cut long standing units that could have just as easily remained in the codex? Not to mention the hacking of certain SCs that were at least fun to use and offered some different ways of playing. Instead of balancing them, they just cut them in the laziest move possible.

The whole thing strikes me as lazy. Obviously I'll wait for the product in my hands before I judge it fully, but losing out on those arty options and those SCs is not a good move in the slightest.

I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.

 Blacksails wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.

Sure, you can use FW rules to field griffons and such, but why shouldn't people be upset that GW cut long standing units that could have just as easily remained in the codex? Not to mention the hacking of certain SCs that were at least fun to use and offered some different ways of playing. Instead of balancing them, they just cut them in the laziest move possible.

The whole thing strikes me as lazy. Obviously I'll wait for the product in my hands before I judge it fully, but losing out on those arty options and those SCs is not a good move in the slightest.

This; laziness and greed. What they don't remove entirely, they'll throw into a dataslate and force you to pay out the nose yet again for it. Who would've thought 40K had the codex equivalent of DLC?

KommissarKarl wrote:
I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else.

This would be a good argument, except there are a lot of TFGs who whine and cry every time you try to use a FW unit. Now if I want to use my Medusa I can't just put it on the table and play the game, I have to have the same old fight about whether we should play 40k by the normal rules or TFG's special version of 40k where my army isn't legal.

 Maxurugi wrote:
I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.

Well, if you want to be a rules lawyer, sure, feel free to attempt to use obsolete books because GW hasn't explicitly said that the new IG codex replaces those old rules. But good luck getting anyone to play against you.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Maxurugi wrote:
I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.

Well, if you want to be a rules lawyer, sure, feel free to attempt to use obsolete books because GW hasn't explicitly said that the new IG codex replaces those old rules. But good luck getting anyone to play against you.

A book is obsolete only after its successor is released. Also, it's not too difficult to release updates for that books. I suggest blaming GW for stuff like that.

 Peregrine wrote:
This would be a good argument, except there are a lot of TFGs who whine and cry every time you try to use a FW unit.

And who will whine and cry whenever you try to use a Griffon/Medusa/Colossus even though the rules. Haven't. fething. Changed.

Chimera won't end up being sold, they will be shelved except for 3 inquisitorial ones with duel hb and psybolts. It's not that they are unplayable, it's that they can't compete with other options.

If valks still carry 12 I see them being more popular then vendettas.

The #1 problem I see with the new dex is it won't be able to compete with forge world static artillery like sabres, thudds, andheavy carriages especially when dirt cheap comissars become available. It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.

The guns can't move voluntarily, and ignore any effect which forces them to move. The order would only allow the crew models to reposition a bit after shooting.

Oh good, looks like my Ratlings are still as usable. I'm looking forward to pulling my Sentinels off the shelf too.

Sure seems like GW is trying to make Taurox less unworthwhile by making other transport choice less worthwhile.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
So I preordered my MT codex through the store and guess what.... the store got 1 taurox 2 boxes of scions and thats it...

WTF GW? Preorder means you know exactly how many you need and where....

Yeah but GW only lets you preorder a week or so out, not nearly enough time to print and ship to meet demand.

They could actualy tell fans and stores in advance, but where's the fun of that.

Well, for those annoyed at the complainers for doing their predictable routine just think back to any codex release people didnt complain about... (there are none) Even when eldar and tau dropped. Just goes to show they will say anything sucks. Let them be.

Someone is doing a cool Taurox modification in the blog world.

http://macharianthunderguard.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/taurox-conversion-lowering-ya-ride-part_6.html

I personally like the model as is but this guy is (by many gamers standards) improving it. Looks cool.

 shingouki wrote:
Just got back from my local GW with my scions.They will look great as Chaos troops imo.They had a painted up Taurox and it looked a lot better than the pics do.It came across as more of a SWAT vehicle/snatch land rover to me,the inside was pretty cool too.It's a smaller vehicle than it looks in the pics.

Wait, i read on Natfka that Tempestus troops could only be taken as allies for the usual Imperials and Taus+Eldars.

Can they be taken with CSM in the end?

that would be cool for my Blood Pacts.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
The only hope I have left (and given GW's track record I dont see them being this insightful) is that those awesome orders that are the fundamental core part of the Imperial whasisname CAN BE ISSUED INTO DUDES IN A VEHICLE.

If they copy the wording of the "Voice of Command" rule from Militarum Tempestus, then embarked units can't take orders.

I still dont know what the internet rage is about. Same old GW same ol folks buying the kits and limited editions like candy bars hanging around expecting different results. Insanity and im just glad I dont have to buy anything new. Except of course the new rules. But its not like im playing competitively anyway. So if I want to play 2nd ed I will. If I want to use the models I have I can. I want to use them for a different game system I can.

No one is forcing any of you to buy anything.

Find a good gaming group and move on.

You are not bringing up anything new in this thread, the nid thread, or the past 700+ pages of discussion of when codexs have changed, editions have changed, etc.

I swear I don't get you guys. I'm always ready to lambast GW but this doom and gloom opera I'm reading is kind of puzzling. With GW shafting play spaces, not caring about tournaments and stuff like that why you care about having to buy Taurox or whatever other crap GW comes with this week?

Especially Peregrine. I don't understand your position Peregrine. This is a game, as such we are not forced to play it against our will. You have a nice FW army and have been a champion that FW rules are core rules now, so why you now appear to be unable to do the same and ? TFG, TFG it's always TFG that refuses to play FW... then find another person to play I'm sure you can if you try.
Here in Japan the player base around Kobe was all high and mighty because I prefered using mainly 3rd party figures instead of GW and banned me from playing at the "local" shop (that sold those cool UrbanWar figures btw, so they wanted my money but not my presence...). I took my bussiness elsewere found another group that didn't care about it to play and contacted similarly minded players to play the way I'm comfortable with.
My friends back in Spain are doing the same, when GW closed the battle bunker and ended the tournament scene they organized and found places to play and along the way dumped a huge amount of ballast in the form of GW impossed restrictions.

So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home? feth GW, play the game the way you and your opponents want. There is no longer a Chapter Approved way since GW closed their "fortress" gates to the heathens that want to enjoy 40K differently. With the current state of things it's up to us to use allies, dataslates, FW, missions... or not. Want to play a Taurox and hate the damned apocotruck, use a count us from other company. The new IG dex lack of arty is a pile of manure use Krieg rules or IA whatever. Want to bring Knigts but the official one is too expensive, Dreamforge has a nice count-as... there are many possibilities if we care to arrange them instead of waiting for GW to do it for us.

M.

PS: About the new IG, yeah I'm miffed about some of the changes but then I'm not that concerned because at my low skill level (and for reasons above)I was not that dependant on Valks/dettas or other real competitive lists so I can shuffle stuff around and won't be forced to buy anything I didn't already want to buy... that boils down to one new ST box

 Miguelsan wrote:
I swear I don't get you guys. I'm always ready to lambast GW but this doom and gloom opera I'm reading is kind of puzzling. With GW shafting play spaces, not caring about tournaments and stuff like that why you care about having to buy Taurox or whatever other crap GW comes with this week?

Especially Peregrine. I don't understand your position Peregrine. This is a game, as such we are not forced to play it against our will. You have a nice FW army and have been a champion that FW rules are core rules now, so why you now appear to be unable to do the same and ? TFG, TFG it's always TFG that refuses to play FW... then find another person to play I'm sure you can if you try.
Here in Japan the player base around Kobe was all high and mighty because I prefered using mainly 3rd party figures instead of GW and banned me from playing at the "local" shop (that sold those cool UrbanWar figures btw, so they wanted my money but not my presence...). I took my bussiness elsewere found another group that didn't care about it to play and contacted similarly minded players to play the way I'm comfortable with.
My friends back in Spain are doing the same, when GW closed the battle bunker and ended the tournament scene they organized and found places to play and along the way dumped a huge amount of ballast in the form of GW impossed restrictions.

So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home? feth GW, play the game the way you and your opponents want. There is no longer a Chapter Approved way since GW closed their "fortress" gates to the heathens that want to enjoy 40K differently. With the current state of things it's up to us to use allies, dataslates, FW, missions... or not. Want to play a Taurox and hate the damned apocotruck, use a count us from other company. The new IG dex lack of arty is a pile of manure use Krieg rules or IA whatever. Want to bring Knigts but the official one is too expensive, Dreamforge has a nice count-as... there are many possibilities if we care to arrange them instead of waiting for GW to do it for us.

M.

No they want a business to tell them to do that, not other people. They cant do anything on their own initiative, they have to be told. They are just angry because no company is telling them what to do, or telling them to do it the way they want. Simple really.

 Miguelsan wrote:
So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home?

Because playing at home pretty much doesn't exist in the US, unless you have friends from outside of 40k that also happen to play 40k. Most games here are pickup games in a store, and there's an expectation that you play by the standard rules as published by GW. Plus, saying "you can fix all of the problems GW created by putting your own work into the game" doesn't excuse the fact that GW's original product was garbage, or in any way mean that we shouldn't criticize GW for it.

(Of course the one "no house rules" exception is if you have too many TFGs in your community and they declare themselves to be in charge of deciding what you're allowed to play.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Even when eldar and tau dropped.

Yeah, I wonder why. Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that those two armies have blatantly overpowered units and, in the case of the Tau codex, nerfed other stuff to make room for the overpowered nonsense? People aren't complaining because the IG latest codex isn't powerful enough, we're complaining because looks like yet another $50 book of garbage from GW.

I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:

In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.

And what do you think happens here? Do you think in Japan we have rooms available everywhere? Yes I get you have to go to a store and there are expectations but why can't you arrange some of those expectations ahead of time? Why not reaching to other players before the game instead of just putting your army on a table and saying "I want to play!"
Why not using this same forum and contact others saying "I'm playing FW rules in such and such shop next Sat who is game?" That's the way I do it around here and seems to work, why don't you try it? I for one wouldn't blink an eye if you brought FW rules to a game if you were to told me in advance.

And I'm not saying that you cannot call on GW when they do stupid things i.e: every other week, and I'm the first in line to do it. It's just that if you rant, rant and then still play the way they want you to, GW wins at the end. My point is play the game, don't let the game play you.

M.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home?

Because playing at home pretty much doesn't exist in the US, unless you have friends from outside of 40k that also happen to play 40k. Most games here are pickup games in a store, and there's an expectation that you play by the standard rules as published by GW. Plus, saying "you can fix all of the problems GW created by putting your own work into the game" doesn't excuse the fact that GW's original product was garbage, or in any way mean that we shouldn't criticize GW for it.

(Of course the one "no house rules" exception is if you have too many TFGs in your community and they declare themselves to be in charge of deciding what you're allowed to play.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Even when eldar and tau dropped.

Yeah, I wonder why. Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that those two armies have blatantly overpowered units and, in the case of the Tau codex, nerfed other stuff to make room for the overpowered nonsense? People aren't complaining because the IG latest codex isn't powerful enough, we're complaining because looks like yet another $50 book of garbage from GW.

I only play with people i know, i live an hour away from any stores so i find people here on Dakka and take turns playing at each others house or we car pool up to the nearest store on an off night and typically still play against each other. Sounds like you have the opposite of my local meta, but for a lot of people out there 40k is a garage/basement game with friends.