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 Peregrine wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.

The guns can't move voluntarily, and ignore any effect which forces them to move. The order would only allow the crew models to reposition a bit after shooting.

The order says the guns must move forward.

The immobile artillery says the guns can not move, and to ignore any effect which forces them to move including the order.

The order says to ignore any restrictions that would forbid the gun from moving so RAW the order says to ignore the restrictions of the immobile artillery rule. At this point the only way RAW would be able to have the immobile artillery rule trump the order would be if the immobile artillery rule were to specifically say to ignore any special rule that would cause the immobile artillery special rule to be cancelled or negated. The immobile artillery rule doesn't say that, and the order says to ignore the immobile artillery rule.

RAW isn't going to win an Oscar this year.

I'm just getting back into 40k after time off in Immoren and I'm actually looking forward to seeing more IG/AM in games. I haven't faced an IG army since 1999 and it's a real shame.

The armies are very expensive, but even veteran players have shyed away from them in all the Meta I've played in over the last 15 years.

I had an IG army back in 2nd ed and I really liked it. They are probably my favourite army as its just a bunch of humans with a flashlight and BALLS. Nothing fancy there.

Also as a member of an armed forces family (Father: 6th Royal Tank Regiment, Retired), the Tanks interest me more than any other unit and I'm glad to see they are finally getting a HQ.

Anyway, I digress.

The reason I didn't get a new IG army was the cost of the army itself. I can see why veteran players would be pissed at things changing so drastically, but for new players (or returning players), a points increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space (another reason I didn't get a new IG army).

I'm going to buy the book as this is the first GW release since Codex Space Marines that has caught my eye.

I'll take a look at the Tank HQ, Pask and other Tank related shenanigans before I start collecting.

I just want to see more IG/AM players.

I seriously hope this release causes that.

Edit: From a gaming standpoint, I see no reason why they made the Chimera more expensive and the new Taurox so bad. Also... Ogryns??? Poor unit hasn't been seen since 2nd ed.

Might end up building the IG army I've always wanted: Necromunda House Orlock Regiment, based off Catachan models.

Puscifer wrote:
for new players (or returning players), a price increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space

This is only true if those models also gain an increase in power to justify the point increase. If you just increase points while keeping their rules the same then all you've done is made it harder to win. And having an army with fewer models doesn't really help much if those few models lose all the time.

 Peregrine wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
for new players (or returning players), a price increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space

This is only true if those models also gain an increase in power to justify the point increase. If you just increase points while keeping their rules the same then all you've done is made it harder to win. And having an army with fewer models doesn't really help much if those few models lose all the time.

QFT.

I couldn't agree more.

TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?

Its an actual question... I've not played them or against them since 1999 and all I see is Internet reports from the last codex being broken.

I've never seen so much crying condensed into one area. It's hilariously sad.

 Miguelsan wrote:
And what do you think happens here? Do you think in Japan we have rooms available everywhere? Yes I get you have to go to a store and there are expectations but why can't you arrange some of those expectations ahead of time? Why not reaching to other players before the game instead of just putting your army on a table and saying "I want to play!"
Why not using this same forum and contact others saying "I'm playing FW rules in such and such shop next Sat who is game?" That's the way I do it around here and seems to work, why don't you try it? I for one wouldn't blink an eye if you brought FW rules to a game if you were to told me in advance.

And I'm not saying that you cannot call on GW when they do stupid things i.e: every other week, and I'm the first in line to do it. It's just that if you rant, rant and then still play the way they want you to, GW wins at the end. My point is play the game, don't let the game play you.

M.

Because he shouldn't HAVE to do this. Literally no other miniatures game requires this kind of pre-planning or negotiation.You are obviously of the opinion that this is acceptable for 40K, but there are others like myself and like Peregrine for whom it is not acceptable.

Puscifer wrote:
TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?

No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.

And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.

double post. sorry

 BrendonC wrote:
I just want to know why they made the Hydra Open Topped....

Because a lot of AA guns are open topped when mounted on a vehicle. They are an AA gun, its not like they are on the front lines getting shot at frequently so why armour them up too much?

Why should it be enclosed?

 BrendonC wrote:
double post. sorry

To make it cost fewer points.

 Peregrine wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?

No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.

And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.

Ahhh, ok, thanks for the explanation.

In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.

Double post for some reason

I am pretty irritated about a lot of the idiotic and pointless changes that seem to be happening, but those have been hashed out already. I did notice something I am rather excited about:

Infantry squad Sergeants can get bolters for 1 point! We can get a squad leader in a shooty unit in a shooty army that shoots further than 12"! Hooray for tiny victories!

Puscifer wrote:
I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't.

If that's the case then why include the option at all? Don't make it too many points to keep people from using it, either price it appropriately or don't include it.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Why should it be enclosed?

Because that's what the previous model was, and being open-topped makes it a lot more fragile. So now everyone who bought the old Hydra model has to pay more points to keep using what they already have.

Puscifer wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?

No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.

And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.

Ahhh, ok, thanks for the explanation.

In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.

It's actually a matter of strength given. A powerfist on a marine is 25 pts, for Str8, while on a human is is (was) 15 pts for Str6. now it's 25 for both (according to sources) despite having a difference in strength.

Power weapons are somewhat the same; let's take a sword; WS4 Str4 AP3 for a marine Sgt, WS3 Str3 AP3 for a Guard Sarge. (WS4 for senior officers and Commissars) Use to be 10 pts, now it is 15.

 Smitty wrote:
I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:

In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.

You say that like it's a bad thing

Puscifer wrote:In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.

Someone has clearly never seen a 5th ed power blob army, or any of the multitude of "henchmen" allied lists that showed up during 6th.

A combined infantry platoon with 40 to 50 guardsmen, with all the sarges and a commissar or two can be absolutely brutal. It's not so much the killing power in the initial round of combat as it is the fact that they just take forever to break down. With that many wounds hanging around and sarges to absorb challenges, Imperial Guard infantry are ironically one of the better assault units in the game, if only for the fact that they have so many great ally options to give them special rules to make them better at melee.

Power blobs are what got me into 40k and IG back at the start of 5th edition. 4 - 30man blobs each with a commissar all with power swords and Straken, the rest Leman Russ tanks. Goes from 900pts to 940pts I think with the new cost of commissars. In today's games I lose a blob a turn (even with lots of cover). I am just glad I made the power sword and plasma pistol arms magnetic so I can leave them in my box and hope they drop in points some time soon.

A guardsmen sergeant with a power sword is what 20pts?
A crusader with power axe, storm shield and WS4 is 15pts.

I still say they can't take away all these things from our old codex without adding back. (more than just a bad transport and wyvern)

No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?

 alarmingrick wrote:
No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?

Assume a manticore nerf and you'll be fine.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:
No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?

Assume a manticore nerf and you'll be fine.

At this point I'd be disappointed with anything less!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?

Nothing printable. In short, that Games Workshop's rule division is, like the marketing department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation, "a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No, the tragic part is that there was a court-case between a litigious bully and a third-party model maker and the loser wasn't either of them: It was us.

On the plus side, there has never been a better time to quit playing Games Workshop games. I sold a huge chunk of my Space Marines yesterday, and my Guard will follow suit. there's bound to be a rube out there that'll buy a few platoons of infantry and a Baneblade.

 Kirasu wrote:
At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels.

Looks like tournament players haven't changed much over the years, then. Used to be that weathering the list-based insults and crude innuendo was a whole subgame in itself. It's like a funhouse mirror version of professional MTG, with all the seriousness and giant egos, but with none of the big winnings that actually make those traits somewhat understandable.

 Peregrine wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?

No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.

And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.

IG were strong but not unbeatable which made the army solid, its not like this franken army feth fest we are experiencing now. GW seems hell bent on destroying anything that has to do with competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels.

Looks like tournament players haven't changed much over the years, then. Used to be that weathering the list-based insults and crude innuendo was a whole subgame in itself. It's like a funhouse mirror version of professional MTG, with all the seriousness and giant egos, but with none of the big winnings that actually make those traits somewhat understandable.

Tournaments used to be won by good generals and net lists were generally one trick ponies that a balanced all comers could deal with, now the high ranks of 40k are filled with the MtG types and you are actively punished for not taking deathstar bull gak.

Did I see that correctly? Veterans squads are going to be part of platoons now the same was as SWS, conscripts, HWTS etc?

So you now have to pay a platoon tax to have a veteran squad....while I actually agree with it, it is a big nerf to Guard.

Sorry, not whining ( looks over at my Imperial Bombards/Colossuses)...let's see how the whole book turns out.

If blobs take a 5 point hit on power weapons it's not that bad of a hit compared to the unmitigated shenanigans they can pull off if IG gets the same priests that AS get.

For the cost of 5 guardsmen add a power fist that go up to Str8 with an allied hammerhand and instant death T5 or less after rad grenades do their -1 Toughness.

Fearless and Hatred for 5 guardsmen when a priest is added. The entire blob also gains shred if the priest passes a leadership test on 7. Commissars will probably be added to make the leadership 9

A 2nd priest can allow the entire blob to reroll armor saves in cc.

For the price of 3 guardsmen priests can take a weapon preferably a power maul. For 8 guardsmen a priest with a maul can give himself smash. His 2 base attacks will go down to 1 + 1 for extra ccw + 1 for charge and he will have 3 attacks at S10 ap2 on the charge. That's enough to ID T6 MC with rad grenades and no psychic tests.

Of course all of these shenanigans will also work with ogyrns/bulgryns, we just need to wait for the codex to drop before it becomes obvious if blobs or ogryns are better.

General Hobbs wrote:
Did I see that correctly? Veterans squads are going to be part of platoons now the same was as SWS, conscripts, HWTS etc?

Probably not. It looks like that screenshot is showing a list of all the troops units available to IG, and then the individual units say "must be taken as part of a platoon". At least let's hope that's what it is, since that would absolutely destroy veteran-based armies and drive a lot more players to ragequit.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Smitty wrote:
I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:

In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.

You say that like it's a bad thing

Hardly! I almost crapped myself when I rolled it out and a dead land raider was the first result I got.

I'm guessing Pask and probably Tank Commanders in general are going to be pretty expensive.

As someone who's currently more involved in the hobby aspect of the game, I'm happy to see the new Stormtroopers which are far and away the highlight of their codex... er... former codex? Anyways, I like all the new models except for that plastic Commissar. He looks more cartoony than his predecessor models wearing an even bigger hat and holding a wonky-looking sword.

I'd like to hope that they've got a fourth wave up their sleeves. Like new Catachan models...

So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and, the Storm Troopers everyone's been waiting for our their own army that requires a £30.00 Codex to use. Is that right? If so, I am hugely, hugely dissapoint!

 Tower75 wrote:
So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.

We haven't had any more rumours of a large tank nor the rumoured flyer, I'm guessing we aren't getting them.

Overall, I find it a pretty disappointing release. I'd have rather seen a Colossus or Medusa kit than the Wyvern, instead we're losing the Colossus, Medusa and Griffon. I'd like to have seen a new flyer. The Taurox is frak ugly, apparently the only way they could make it appealing was to nerf the Chimera. ST models are ok but I really don't care because we already had good ST options.

The only thing I really find interesting is the tank commanders.