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 Vaktathi wrote:

UlrikDecado wrote:
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)

When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.

So change your list I run Chimeras too, yeah, I will have to recalculate thing...and I will save some points on cheaper commisars But my point was the childish "oh Im so important" crying "I quit, no more" just because the one trasport went slightly, really slightly up. Like, seriously, there is a lot of reshuffling, a lot of positive things and to call it quit because of this? Yeah, right, whatever dude, if you say so... (Im not talking about you now, just to be sure)

But guys, sentinels are cheaper, new meta, I'm calling it now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.

Exactly. And it wouldn't be so bad if the Chimera nerf was the only thing wrong with an otherwise awesome codex, but so far what we've seen suggests that the best way to save $50 on a new codex is to rip a few pages out of your previous codex and take a random unit out of your list. The only thing we've gained, other than some warlord traits that should have been FAQed in the day 6th edition was released, is HQ tanks. All of the other changes either increase the cost of stuff that didn't need to be more expensive, or remove units entirely.

I think everything should be FAQed, so we dont have to pay for it. Paying is evil. Thats why Star Trek Federation doesnt use money. You forgot new orders, good orders cheaper commisars, cheaper stormies, sentinels, vendetta nerf (yeah, its good, surprise, surprise)...but Im pretty sure you will find some new excuse how to make it GW's fault, so, dont bother, just tell us, how its all wrong, I can effectively imagine the rest

 UlrikDecado wrote:
the one trasport went slightly, really slightly up.

An 18% (if smoke + searchlight are in fact included) or 30% (if they aren't) increase in points is not a slight increase, especially when there's no justification for it besides trying to make the new Taurox kit more appealing.

a lot of positive things

Like what exactly? HQ tanks are nice, but that's about it. Everything else is either nothing to get excited about, or a pointless nerf.

Dude, you are faster in denying than Im in writing Please, use my last advice from my last post It will save o lot of plastic from our keybords (everything bad is BIIIIIG and everything good...is not good!)

 UlrikDecado wrote:
I think everything should be FAQed, so we dont have to pay for it.

Sigh. Nice "communism is evil" rant, but there's a difference between demanding free content and expecting rule updates to make existing products compatible with the new core rules. Warlord traits were part of 6th edition and should have been added to all existing armies, just like how the flyers all got flyer rules even if they were published as fast skimmers.

You forgot new orders

Which aren't really any better than the old orders. They're different, but it's change for the sake of change.

cheaper commisars

Who cares. Nobody takes commissars when you can take divination inquisitors instead.

cheaper stormies

Only because GW removed all of the special rules that made them even vaguely useful.

vendetta nerf

Necessary for balance reasons, but you know things are pretty bad when a list of changes to be happy about includes a major nerf to a key unit.

Has there been any indication whether or not IG DLC is coming up after the release?

 Eldarain wrote:
Has there been any indication whether or not IG DLC is coming up after the release?

Is water wet?

 Peregrine wrote:
Sigh. Nice "communism is evil" rant, but there's a difference between demanding free content and expecting rule updates to make existing products compatible with the new core rules. Warlord traits were part of 6th edition and should have been added to all existing armies, just like how the flyers all got flyer rules even if they were published as fast skimmers.

Just for the record, Im living in country which lived in real communism and I remember it, really, this isnt about communism and you know nothing about it (Jon Snow)

The rest. Yeah, whatever, as I said, you are predictable after while. New things are not important, or are new things but not necessarily good things or are "vaguely useful"...OK, the last part was funny

I have a Taurox in hand now, and it is both shorter and narrower than a Rhino. It is abit higher than said Rhino thou.

It has grown on me, but I will give it front wheels. Half-track or no truck IMO!

There's some epic whinging in this thread.

Searchlights cost 1pt.

The changes sound good, HQ tanks, cheaper Sentinels, 3 new orders, 3 (meh) orders for tanks, cheaper Commissars and we don't know a lot of the book.

The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were. Chimera parking lots reduced? Good. Vendy spam less broken? Good.

Ogryns are a WTF, especially with new plastic..

I want to know blob rules still exist however.....*crosses fingers*

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Yeah, whatever, as I said, you are predictable after while.

I'm only predictable because GW is predictable in releasing garbage and calling it a finished product. I'm perfectly happy to praise new releases when they're good (see X-Wing threads on new releases), GW just isn't publishing anything worth praising. I'm not going to get all excited about it and start posting about how awesome everything is just because it's new.

To lighten the mood it helps to read everything from Peregrine as if a furious falcon is screeching it at you.
Not to undermine the value of his input, just to add some texture to the experience.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
cheaper Sentinels

Too bad they're still worse than Vendettas, and are still an AV 10 vehicle with 2 HP in an edition that makes light vehicles suicidally fragile.

cheaper Commissars

Who cares. Divination inquisitors are cheap, fix your leadership problems, and buff all of your shooting. Commissars might as well be a blank page unless you're taking them for fluff reasons (and wouldn't care about the point cost).

The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were.

No, they really didn't suck. Al'rahem and Chenkov were awesome fluffy characters that added interesting strategies to your whole army, and the artillery units were all solid choices. Making the artillery FW-only wouldn't be too terrible if we lived in an ideal world where the "no FW" TFGs didn't exist, but in the real world they do and making things FW-only is effectively removing them entirely for many people.

And of course removing Marbo is just inexcusable. He was by far the most popular character in the codex (and one of the most popular in the whole game), for both rules and fluff.

Chimera parking lots reduced?

Sounds like you're still stuck in 5th edition. Chimera parking lots aren't overpowered in 6th because of the new vehicle rules that make transports a lot weaker. They're only as popular as they are because foot lists are in such bad shape right now that you need those transports. Nerfing Chimeras doesn't fix the problems with foot lists, it just makes IG as a whole a weaker army.

 plastictrees wrote:
To lighten the mood it helps to read everything from Peregrine as if a furious falcon is screeching it at you.
Not to undermine the value of his input, just to add some texture to the experience.

That does help...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
cheaper Sentinels

Too bad they're still worse than Vendettas, and are still an AV 10 vehicle with 2 HP in an edition that makes light vehicles suicidally fragile.

Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?

cheaper Commissars

Who cares. Divination inquisitors are cheap, fix your leadership problems, and buff all of your shooting. Commissars might as well be a blank page unless you're taking them for fluff reasons (and wouldn't care about the point cost).

SOME people happen to like Commissars and don't automatically spam Div Inq. and would welcome them being cheaper

The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were.

No, they really didn't suck. Al'rahem and Chenkov were awesome fluffy characters that added interesting strategies to your whole army, and the artillery units were all solid choices. Making the artillery FW-only wouldn't be too terrible if we lived in an ideal world where the "no FW" TFGs didn't exist, but in the real world they do and making things FW-only is effectively removing them entirely for many people.

And of course removing Marbo is just inexcusable. He was by far the most popular character in the codex (and one of the most popular in the whole game), for both rules and fluff.

I meant things being removed sucks..not the things themselves.............................

Chimera parking lots reduced?

Sounds like you're still stuck in 5th edition. Chimera parking lots aren't overpowered in 6th because of the new vehicle rules that make transports a lot weaker. They're only as popular as they are because foot lists are in such bad shape right now that you need those transports. Nerfing Chimeras doesn't fix the problems with foot lists, it just makes IG as a whole a weaker army.

Chimeras at 55pts are still cheap, 65 is fine for AV12 ML HF/HB and I have played 6th ta.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Some of those upgrades on the Chimera in that image have me scratching my head. "Relic Plating"? "Recovery Gear"? "Fire Barrels"? ... Curious.

I do like seeing the Pintle Heavy Stubbers or Storm Bolters only costing 5 points. Also, Extra Armor is only 10 points also.

I'm not thrilled to see the Chimera get a 10 point increase for the basic tank, with no upgrades (At least in the current rules they have a searchlight built in.) Guess we'll see what's to come in a week or so.

Take it easy for now guys.

-Red__Thirst-

Relic plating gives the vehicle adamantium will
Recovery Gear gives it the repair rule from the Rhino
Fire barrels does some damage to charging enemies like the tau flechette launchers.

Someone may have already posted this, I still have like 8 pages to catch up on.

Well, the warlord traits are pretty good.

But as for everything else...none too happy.

Pretty unhappy about the removal of several characters, a bunch of arty, and the chimera price bump.

This codex isn't shaping up the way I was hoping.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?

It's not about being more overpowered, it's about having a role at all. Right now there's no reason to take Sentinels because Vendettas have more firepower and more durability per point, as well as transport capacity. Dropping the point cost a bit doesn't fix the problem of limited firepower and poor durability.

SOME people happen to like Commissars and don't automatically spam Div Inq. and would welcome them being cheaper

If you're taking commissars then you already don't care about how effective they are. Making them a bit cheaper reduces the impact of your poor choice a bit, but it's not exactly something to get excited about.

Chimeras at 55pts are still cheap, 65 is fine for AV12 ML HF/HB and I have played 6th ta.

Again, the point is that it isn't necessary. The only apparent reason to nerf the Chimera is to make the Taurox more appealing as a cheaper alternative, and the Taurox shouldn't exist at all.

Sorry folks, but there is a reason for the way people feel.
I have a lot of models that may be of no/limited use in this new mess of a 'dex.
I own 3 griffons, 3 medusas, 3 PL squads....
Just because you don't agree with Peregrine doesn't remove the fact there are going to be people who feel the same way.
Me included. What I've seen so far makes me feel like this will be another opportunity missed for the IG in a lot of areas.

How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.

And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.

I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.

Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit

Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
That's tragic if true, since the case is far from over. With all the appeals, it might be anothe few years before it's clear what, if anything, GW "lost".

No, the tragic part is that there was a court-case between a litigious bully and a third-party model maker and the loser wasn't either of them: It was us.

 Peregrine wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?

It's not about being more overpowered, it's about having a role at all. Right now there's no reason to take Sentinels because Vendettas have more firepower and more durability per point, as well as transport capacity. Dropping the point cost a bit doesn't fix the problem of limited firepower and poor durability.

HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.

If you are playing Tau, where the case can be made that Riptide killing power would be far better, I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides, and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.

In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens, so they're working as a force multiplier, and in the Scouring they're abusing the scoring benefit better.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.

1) Hunter-killer missiles aren't lascannons. STR 9 AP 2 is much better than STR 8 AP 3.

2) Hunter-killer missiles are a one-shot weapon. After the first turn the Sentinels are down to three shots per turn.

3) Sentinels are BS 3, Vendettas are twin-linked BS 3. Even granting your assumption that a krak missile shot is as good as a lascannon shot the Sentinels only have a small advantage for their first shot, and then do significantly less damage for the rest of the game.

So the end result is that for 10 points more you can get a unit that can shoot like a Vendetta for one turn, as long as it isn't against a flyer, or you could pay 10 points less and get a Vendetta that shoots like a Vendetta every turn.

I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides

This is a marginal benefit since the Sentinels still have to face normal shooting. Starting on the table just means that your opponent doesn't have to use interceptor to get their first turn of shooting against them. And of course the Sentinels face a lot more firepower from the many weapons that don't have interceptor.

and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.

Vendettas don't need that cover ability because they are only hit on 6s (way better than a 5+ cover save) or can hover for a 5+ cover save in open terrain.

In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens

This makes no sense because you're paying enough points for a 5+ cover save to just buy redundant LRBTs to replace the first ones that die. And a Vendetta probably gives more protection overall, since it's a very tough target that is also a high priority for most players, drawing a lot of fire away from the LRBTs entirely instead of just giving them a 5+ cover save.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.

And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.

I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.

Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit

I can't fathom the reason they made the orgryn worse by doing that. Maybe they think that people will be putting commissars with them anyways, so they didn't need the leadership & stubborn themselves anymore?

We don't know how Commissars will be fielded (are they bought with individual units, like a wargear option? Are they bought 0-5 per HQ slot? Are they FoC-less HQ models so you can spam them? Could we in fact be looking at a FoC-less codex?

Looking at the MT/ST (whatever you want to call them) codex, I will note that unlike other 6th edition codexes, it does not instruct to the player "Then you can proceed to pick your army following the guidelines given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." Instead it states "The datasheets in this section will enable you to forge your collection of miniatures into a Militarum Tempestus army ready to fight battles in your games of Warhammer 40,000." The implication in the difference is that the MT codex does not need to follow the guidelines given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook" In shorter terms, MT may not need to follow traditional FoC rules.

And if that is the correct reading....will the AM/IG do the same, or are the MT unique?

edit:grammar

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.

And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.

I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.

Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit

Commissars are 25pts in the new stormus trooperus dex.

Was I that only one that noticed that HWT could now get flakk missiles or am I just REALLY behind that curve?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?

Look at the bright side: when Forgeworld gets around to doing the Imperial Army for the Horus Heresy, we'll have an IG army worth playing.

 Ir0njack wrote:
Was I that only one that noticed that HWT could now get flakk missiles or am I just REALLY behind that curve?

No, we noticed (and it was pretty much guaranteed once the first codex with flak for +10 points was released), it's just not a very relevant option. Flak missiles cost way too many points for a weapon that isn't even very good at killing the one thing it can shoot at. You'll only ever take them as an act of desperation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.

1) Hunter-killer missiles aren't lascannons. STR 9 AP 2 is much better than STR 8 AP 3.

2) Hunter-killer missiles are a one-shot weapon. After the first turn the Sentinels are down to three shots per turn.

I'm fully aware of this- which is why I explicitly said 6 high strength AT shots. 6 AT shots vs 3, against MC's and lighter superheavies (e.g Knights) you have greater potential damage, and certainly against 3+ save MC's you're doing greater average damage.

3) Sentinels are BS 3, Vendettas are twin-linked BS 3. Even granting your assumption that a krak missile shot is as good as a lascannon shot the Sentinels only have a small advantage for their first shot, and then do significantly less damage for the rest of the game.

So the end result is that for 10 points more you can get a unit that can shoot like a Vendetta for one turn, as long as it isn't against a flyer, or you could pay 10 points less and get a Vendetta that shoots like a Vendetta every turn.

A Vendetta isn't going to last long in full view of all your opponent's AA, and frequently you're going to be forced to go after the AA sources first so you don't get shot down in the following turn if they're not Interceptor. Sentinels do not have this issue, you only need to sit at the back, find a firelane which restricts LOS and lets you see your priority target and pump it with fire turn after turn. There's also no gap turn at any point where the Vendetta would have flown off the board or be forced to become a skimmer and basically die.

I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides

This is a marginal benefit since the Sentinels still have to face normal shooting. Starting on the table just means that your opponent doesn't have to use interceptor to get their first turn of shooting against them. And of course the Sentinels face a lot more firepower from the many weapons that don't have interceptor.

Camo-netting (scrapping the HKM for this is worth considering) using the aforementioned method of restricting your opponent's LOS and surgically removing the worst parts of your opponent's AT with other elements are all viable ways of minimising this.

You've got one turn max, unless you by a miracle fluff all your reserves rolls turn 2, to kill all your opponent's entrenched HYMP Broadsides and AA, all of which will immediately be able to target you either before firing or just after, while LOS and intelligent positioning means only some elements of your opponent's AT should be able to see or fire with maximum effectiveness at your Sentinels.

and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.

Vendettas don't need that cover ability because they are only hit on 6s (way better than a 5+ cover save) or can hover for a 5+ cover save in open terrain.

But the various AA weapons that are found in highly competitive and tournament lists are going to kill your Vendettas very quickly, being effective and having easy ability to attempt to shoot at them. The moment you finish firing your Vendettas, if you're playing Eldar for instance all of his Wave Serpents can fire their Serpent Shields at your Vendettas who are basically impossible to not see and easily swat them out the sky, whereas Sentinels will be easier to hide from all of the Serpents.

In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens

This makes no sense because you're paying enough points for a 5+ cover save to just buy redundant LRBTs to replace the first ones that die. And a Vendetta probably gives more protection overall, since it's a very tough target that is also a high priority for most players, drawing a lot of fire away from the LRBTs entirely instead of just giving them a 5+ cover save.

1) You're not just paying for a 5+ cover save, you're paying for several mobile Lascannons and HKM's that even really outshine the Vanquisher, given how one BS3 shot is so unreliable.

2) At highly competitive level (which given the blatant black and white conclusions you make should be a fair assumption) and tournament level you will very, very rarely find anyone who hasn't brought enough AA to handle the immediate threat of flyers, so there will likely not be such a situation. Even if their AA is unsuccessful you can bet that the Vendettas will not get priority from snapfiring AT unless their situation is very dire.

For the Div Inq thing yes they are great and can add lots of awesome tools like servo skulls, books and monkeys. Some people like to just use their codex and won't want to spend $30 + model cost to get the inquisition book to add one dude to a blob squad.

I don't like that the special characters are gone as I used Al'Rahem and Chenkov a lot and always used Marbo. I also always had a squad of 2 colossus in my army as I thought they were the only useful artillery. But I can't imagine they would take out all that stuff without adding something back in. I love how all these "sources" never say what special characters are "In" just saying whats "out". There is gotta be something wrong with what they have been posting, can't wait to look through the codex.