Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Aye, I simply cannot fathom why GW thought they'd be worth 60pts

General Hobbs wrote:


Can we start a new thread for IG NEws etc? I just read 4 pages of whining and haven't learned anything else about the army.Mods? Hello? Bueller?

Everything worth reading is on the first page.

The rest is known as the discussion. Some of its good, some of it isn't, some of it is sad, and some of it is funny. Such is the nature of a large, diverse forum.

Isn't 60ppm more than a TH/SS terminator?

Aren't Ogryns T5 S5 with 3 wounds?

 ultimentra wrote:
Isn't 60ppm more than a TH/SS terminator?

By 15-20pts, depending on the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't Ogryns T5 S5 with 3 wounds?

Yes.

 ultimentra wrote:
Isn't 60ppm more than a TH/SS terminator?

termies are 40-45 ppm more or less; it's 200 for a basic squad of 4 with a sarge IIRC

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.

So what did recosting him accomplish if his playstyle isn't viable other than making it less so?

Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?

Also, I just had an aneurysm.

I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TL HB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.

The Razorback has side hatches, self repair, BS4 and is in an army of super-soldier infantry and not wet noodle infantry.

6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot. Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.

The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.

Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.

The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably.

At the beginning of 5E, when most other armies were still running 4E or 5E books, perhaps. After 6E, Hull Points, new transport rules, and the new Necron, Eldar, and Tau books? One will notice those Chimera parking lots largely disappeared.

A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful? Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.

People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.

Searchlights are used more than ever now that Nightfight is in *EVERY* mission type and not just 1/3rd of games, and Smoke Launchers are always valuable wargear, the Leman Russ tanks don't advance ahead of the chimeras for them to hide behind.

If you really care about night fighting that much (lol), pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal. Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective, you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true. Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.

Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper.

Except...it's not all getting cheaper...? And, as I pointed out earlier, for many players we're not talking about 30-40pts but 3-6x that.

There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.

The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.

And yet you're certain taht everything else will be getting cheaper when we've seen no such evidence aside from Sentinels.

What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?

 Blacksails wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
Isn't 60ppm more than a TH/SS terminator?

By 15-20pts, depending on the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't Ogryns T5 S5 with 3 wounds?

Yes.

Well, I guess that's why they are over 40 points then

Of course, toughness isn't quite as valuable in 40k as it is in whfb, I think :/

Should have made Ogryns monstrous creatures XD. Give them smash and then we'll use em! They would be able to kill better than Tyranids in CC.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, I guess that's why they are over 40 points then

Yeah, because GW has such a great track record of balance.

Can i just reply to the ball is round comment. As in, anything can happen. A game can be balanced to high heavens, yet you sometimes you roll lots of 6's and other times only can get 1's. It's the way the game works.

Also, can't wait to see what they all can properly do. My scions might well be brilliant inquisitorial stormies though, with the volley-gun acting as proxy hot-shot lasgun until rules for them are included with GK/Inq.

 Blacksails wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, I guess that's why they are over 40 points then

Yeah, because GW has such a great track record of balance.

At least it's consistent. Lychguard and Praets are also T5 S5, and they are 40 points each.

That said, those units tend not to find that much either...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


At least it's consistent. Lychguard and Praets are also T5 S5, and they are 40 points each.

That said, those units tend not to find that much either...

Yeah, exactly.

So...at least GW is consistently bad at balance. I guess.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.

So what did recosting him accomplish if his playstyle isn't viable other than making it less so?

Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?

Also, I just had an aneurysm.

I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TL HB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.

The Razorback has side hatches, self repair, BS4 and is in an army of super-soldier infantry and not wet noodle infantry.

6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot. Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.

The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.

Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.

The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably.

At the beginning of 5E, when most other armies were still running 4E or 5E books, perhaps. After 6E, Hull Points, new transport rules, and the new Necron, Eldar, and Tau books? One will notice those Chimera parking lots largely disappeared.

A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful? Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.

People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.

Searchlights are used more than ever now that Nightfight is in *EVERY* mission type and not just 1/3rd of games, and Smoke Launchers are always valuable wargear, the Leman Russ tanks don't advance ahead of the chimeras for them to hide behind.

If you really care about night fighting that much (lol), pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal. Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective, you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true. Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.

Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper.

Except...it's not all getting cheaper...? And, as I pointed out earlier, for many players we're not talking about 30-40pts but 3-6x that.

There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.

The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.

And yet you're certain taht everything else will be getting cheaper when we've seen no such evidence aside from Sentinels.

What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?

Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

I know I've got a lot of mortar barrels floating around from heavy weapon squads. I think I'm going to figure out how to fabricate a little quad mortar turret to turn Chimeras into Wyvern.



But with 4.

Biophysical wrote:
I know I've got a lot of mortar barrels floating around from heavy weapon squads. I think I'm going to figure out how to fabricate a little quad mortar turret to turn Chimeras into Wyverns.

Not being snarky, serious question. Then what? Buy the Taurox to replace the Chimera? Or just not use transports?

Well, I've got 7 chimeras. I never really used all of them anyway unless I was doing a parking lot on a lark. If I make three Wyverns, 4 is plenty for the way I play to mobilize a few guys.

Really, though, if I do it right I'll be able to convert it back and forth depending on what I want to play.

Biophysical wrote:
Well, I've got 7 chimeras. I never really used all of them anyway unless I was doing a parking lot on a lark. If I make three Wyverns, 4 is plenty for the way I play to mobilize a few guys.

Really, though, if I do it right I'll be able to convert it back and forth depending on what I want to play.

Ah, got you. I was thinking a permanent switch. Maybe you could go really easy and make it a swappable turret instead of a body change?

Could make it easier to switch from an opened WhyVern to an enclosed Chimera.

 alarmingrick wrote:


Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.

Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.

Rest of the leaks, for those interested:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/from-codex-astra-militarum.html

Searchlights are not 15 points, they're 1 point.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
What's the problem?

That's a Medusa, not a Griffon. Just sayin'.....

well, you get the point, just sayin'

And you don't, clearly.
Would you want to take a beautifully painted model like you have pictured and rip it apart to ad a different barrel?
You do realize how asinine that proposition is, right?
Just continuing to say....

Sticking a smaller tube into the larger barrel is ripping it apart? It is like the hydra/wyvern kit, that easy... I didn't know conversions, or making due with what you have (making the best of a situation) was asinine....

I'm just sayin, if GW gives us lemons, we can make lemonade!

If you don't like lemonade, there are other juices out there!

Exactly. If I can cut loose my Chimera doors, I'll make a little turntable with mortar barrels on it. Chimera? Doors closed. Wyvern? open doors and put in the mortar system. Maybe a couple of Catachans loading mortar bombs. Take off the multilaser and add some little sensor/comms bit or something. Check out the picture I edited in a couple posts up. It's an M113.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:


Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.

Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents.

Rest of the leaks, for those interested:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/from-codex-astra-militarum.html

Searchlights are not 15 points.

But we are talking about the Chimera. 10 squishy IG troopers are all that fit, not a platoon. Plus being in the Chimera, they can't be given orders.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:


Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.

Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents.

Rest of the leaks, for those interested:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/from-codex-astra-militarum.html

Searchlights are not 15 points.

But we are talking about the Chimera. 10 squishy IG troopers are all that fit, not a platoon. Plus being in the Chimera, they can't be given orders.

6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?

Uh, no. I was answering this point.

I will gladly look at and accept good evidence to the contrary to what I'm saying but thus far I have seen little, and very few efforts to even present some.

10 IG Troopers in hard cover with cloaks is still probably more resistant to fire than Marines. The moment you leave the Chimera a PCS in a Chimera can then issue them orders from inside their own as well.

Divination PBS will be fun.

Yeah, PBS looks interesting.

Priests got better too, so that's nice.

Two specials on the vets is disappointing, but the doctrines are cheaper. I think I'd still rather have three specials though.

If those Vet rules are real, mech-vets will still be a net reduction in points (admittedly with one less special weapon). 80 points for a pair of BS4 meltaguns is still good. 145 for the squad in a chimera isn't bad either. We'll see if Vets get any cool little things. A combi-weapon on the sergeant would help. They used to be able to get them. If you want them on foot, a squad with 2 plasmas and Grenadiers is pretty decent at 105 points.

Priests like AS priests will make Guard better in close combat than they've ever been, assuming blobs are still a thing.

I used to have a pretty spread out, balanced Imperial Guard army, a little bit of most things. It wouldn't even be remotely playable with the new codex now.

Like, my 1850 point list from a few years ago in 5th Edition.

--------------------------------------------------------
Company Command 4 Melta Guns (Probable decrease in weapons)
Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Bolter (Points Increase)

Lord Commissar Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Carapace (Probable points increase, if he still exists)

Guardsman Marbo (Ceased to Exist)

Ogryns 5 Ogryns (Can't go in Chimera anymore)
Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Flamer (Points Increase)

Infantry Platoon Alpha

Command Squad 4 flamers (Probably loses Weapons)
Chimera Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter (Points Increase)
Infantry Squad 1 Autocannon , Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 2 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 3 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 4 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Mortar Squad 3 Mortars (No News)

Veteran Squad Beta 3 Plasmaguns (-1 PlasmaGun, probably points increase)
Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Flamer (Points Increase)
Veteran Squad Gamma 3 Meltaguns (-1 Meltagun, probably up in points)
Valkyrie Carrier Multilaser, Rocket Pods (Possibly slightly up in points, fair enough)

Vendetta Gunship 3 Twin Lascannons (Majorly Up in points, fair enough)
Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Lascannon (No News)
Manticore 4 Rockets, Heavy Flamer (No News, I imagine points increase or Major downgrade.)

----------------------------------------------

So, I imagine that if I were to build an equivalent modern day army list with Codex Astra Militarum, I'd be probably fielding a 2000 point + army in an environment where, with the exception of Tyranids, every other army has become 'better' in some form or another.

 Blacksails wrote:
Yeah, PBS looks interesting.

Priests got better too, so that's nice.

Two specials on the vets is disappointing, but the doctrines are cheaper. I think I'd still rather have three specials though.

What I am confused with is that IG have never been able to take divination. Also, will they be a 10 man squad, because if there isn't an overseer that is a 9 man squad currently.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:


Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.

Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.

Rest of the leaks, for those interested:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/from-codex-astra-militarum.html

Searchlights are not 15 points, they're 1 point.

15 point grenadiers? Holy crap, sign me up. Looks like I'm going to be liking this edition after all.

 Happygrunt wrote:


What I am confused with is that IG have never been able to take divination. Also, will they be a 10 man squad, because if there isn't an overseer that is a 9 man squad currently.

Maybe we can purchase them in varying numbers? I'm not sure. Hopefully we'll hear more in the coming days.