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 TheSilo wrote:
To all the haters, boo friggin' boo hoo.

Ah good, the hallmark of a quality post.

Maybe, just maybe, there are people who aren't concerned with the power level of the codex, but with the poor decisions to invalidate people's units, characters, and playstyles that those units and characters created.

The internal balance is still looking to be pretty boor in the slots that have been consistently bad, namely the FA and Elite slots.

And for the last time, it isn't hating, or crying, or raging, or anything else you'd like to attribute to it.

People have differing opinions on things. Amazing how that works. Calling people haters contributes nothing and only makes me dismiss anything you'd have to say that much quicker.

 TheSilo wrote:
To all the haters, boo friggin' boo hoo.

We lost three artillery tanks and gained one.

We gained one yes, that fills a very similar role to one that already existed going back to 2nd edition, lost our anti-MEQ entrenching tool, and lost the most powerful ranged tank hunter in the game.

They all did the same thing any way

Methinks you should re-read your 5E IG codex and come back to this statement.

and we still have SEVEN leman russ variants.

Hooray that they didn't cut even *more* units /s

Master of ordnance is now cheaper. If you're really sad about the medusa/colossus get two CCS with two masters of ordnance and call fire on my target all day long.

Which don't really fill the same role and are grossly less effective.

ZOMG chimera is 10 points more. Yes, that's to counter your awesome vet units that are now 10 points cheaper.

out of the large number of units that can take a Chimera, it's now balanced just around one? command squads, mechanized platoons, stormtroopers, etc?

Cheaper doctrines, more orders, your infantry is now much more effective. PCS with 12" command range and 6 available orders. This change was to incentivize infantry with well thought out deployment and command structures, and to slightly disincentivize plasma buses.

Yes footslogging vets will be cooler, that's nice, but most other infantry still have largely the same problems they did before (particularly infantry based heavy weapons) and what was the reason for nerfing plasma buses more than the 6E core rules already did?

Which do you think more closely reflects the IG fluff?

Depends entirely on the regiment in question.

Ultimately, as noted, it looks like we'll get "the same, but different", another codex with some cool new additions but some major subtractions, with many longstanding units still suffering from the same glaring problems they've had for years (sometimes for multiple editions) and still have tons of awful internal balance.

 TheSilo wrote:
Stuff

Are we playing the same game? Camo cloaks? Have we seen all the ignores cover nonsense in the game?

There's absolutely zero reason to mess with the Chimera, it's worked well across what, 4 codecis now? Deleting units is also bad... none of what was deleted was overpowered, but meets the "Forge the Narrative" criteria we're impressed upon by GW. So all that narrative someone had with Al'Raheam (sp), Marbo, Custom/FW artillery tanks, etc. is now shelved.

There are good buffs, there are strange changes, there are bland additions, and then there are deletions. What's the final count, were more things added than deleted in terms of units?

It's probably a solid book, it's just not exciting. There isn't a Wraithknight or Riptide like model for this release. Not an MC, but a "WTF IS THAT?!" style thing that gets people buzzing. It's kinda ho-hum. The new Ogryns are cool.

Edit: I know one narrative player at a store I played at that will be very sad that Chenkov doesn't exist. He was custom building an entire guard army and only playing painted units... painting one guardsmen at a time. I feel sorry for him that his theme is now deleted.

 TheSilo wrote:
To all the haters, boo friggin' boo hoo.

We lost three artillery tanks and gained one. They all did the same thing any way, and we still have SEVEN leman russ variants. Master of ordnance is now cheaper. If you're really sad about the medusa/colossus get two CCS with two masters of ordnance and call fire on my target all day long. The arty tanks were mostly cheaper/flimsier ways of doing what the leman russ variants can do anyway.

ZOMG chimera is 10 points more. Yes, that's to counter your awesome vet units that are now 10 points cheaper. Cheaper doctrines, more orders, your infantry is now much more effective. PCS with 12" command range and 6 available orders. This change was to incentivize infantry with well thought out deployment and command structures, and to slightly disincentivize plasma buses. Which do you think more closely reflects the IG fluff? I agree the chimera rules are clunky, but the splitfire option could be very useful.

The cheaper veteran doctrines are positively game changing. I plan to spam camo-vets, Tanith style, good luck trying to shoot out my vets with the 3+ cover save in those ruins, and their snare mines will negate any charge bonus. Cheap carapace vets puts a whole new flavor on objective-seizing.

Cheaper armored sentinels could be big. They could be great tank hunters.

Everyone wants their army to be the next big thing, but I really like the sound of these changes and they seem like good balance decisions rather than flavor of the month OP buffs.

I agree I don't think guards gone the way of the bug... And I don't think we needed to be the Eldat/tau that trains got'a stop some how....

 Kirasu wrote:
Incorrect assumption on how the precision shot rule works tho, characters GAIN precision shot on a roll of a 6 to hit.

Character Unit type + 6 to hit = Gain Precision Shot rule

That is different from the RULE precision shot saying "A to-hit roll of 6 allows you to allocate the wound to a model of your choice". In reality, the precision shot rule simply allows you to allocate ANY wound using this rule to a model of your choice.

This is no different than the vindicare assassin or pathfinders. The only reason imo people are resisting this idea is because it's COMPLETELY ABSURD to have 50 guardsmen gaining precision shot on ALL hit rolls (but wouldn't surprise me with GW's lack of due diligence).

Another thing is the "Smite at will" order; the unit gains split fire special rule..

so that means that the Squad got to make a Ld test to understand the order, THEN must do another test to be able to split fire? I mean i passed a test to get the order; I get split fire, but split fire states I must do a Ld test to split my fire between two targets..

I think both Vets and Platoons got big boosts. Vets got cheaper base cost and cheaper protective upgrades. Infantry blobs got Priests. Both got better orders. Both got cheaper Leman Russ tanks in support (which frees up points to take more infantry stuff).

I don't get the Hellhound variant prices, though. For those points we're now looking at Leman Russ prices, with Leman Russ armor values. I'll still probably run the Hellhounds, because I like the conversions I've made, but I don't really get it. Fast tanks are not that good.

Any minor changes that might give the flame tanks a little edge?

Well, multi-melta is 10 pts now instead of..30 IIRC? Get a fast melta weapon in range to suck up the fire while your vet go up field,

It was 15 before. My devildog configuration went down in points.

A vanquisher and a devil dog do the same thing and cost the same .... One is 14 armour 72'' range. The other 12 armour 24 12 for the melta to kick in what the.....

It seems Carapace armour is suddenly cheap and worth it.

What a boring end for the PBS though...

I wonder about the Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Primaris Psykers. Do any of these actually use up HQ slots? Or are they just HQ units? Is a servitor with HB really 20 points?

 TheSilo wrote:
To all the haters, boo friggin' boo hoo.

We lost three artillery tanks and gained one. They all did the same thing any way, and we still have SEVEN leman russ variants. Master of ordnance is now cheaper. If you're really sad about the medusa/colossus get two CCS with two masters of ordnance and call fire on my target all day long. The arty tanks were mostly cheaper/flimsier ways of doing what the leman russ variants can do anyway.

ZOMG chimera is 10 points more. Yes, that's to counter your awesome vet units that are now 10 points cheaper. Cheaper doctrines, more orders, your infantry is now much more effective. PCS with 12" command range and 6 available orders. This change was to incentivize infantry with well thought out deployment and command structures, and to slightly disincentivize plasma buses. Which do you think more closely reflects the IG fluff? I agree the chimera rules are clunky, but the splitfire option could be very useful.

The cheaper veteran doctrines are positively game changing. I plan to spam camo-vets, Tanith style, good luck trying to shoot out my vets with the 3+ cover save in those ruins, and their snare mines will negate any charge bonus. Cheap carapace vets puts a whole new flavor on objective-seizing.

Cheaper armored sentinels could be big. They could be great tank hunters.

Everyone wants their army to be the next big thing, but I really like the sound of these changes and they seem like good balance decisions rather than flavor of the month OP buffs.

This is how I feel. You gain some you lose some. For example, with my individual army I run mech platoons with armoured and storm trooper support. Chimeras are more expensive, that sucks, but most Russ variants including my two favourite (Vanquisher and Eradicator) have gone down in price a lot meaning I can field more tanks or at least help make up the cost increase caused by Chimeras getting more expensive. Vendettas cost more and can't carry as many guys, that sucks but a nerf here was assumed by most people. Storm Troopers went down in price and can be fielded as platoons, this is huge for me as I love fielding storm troopers as frontline troops, like grenadiers with hot-shot lasguns. Sure some options are less effective now, but that happens with every codex, our core troops are still good enough, vets get lots of cheap guns, platoons get lots of cheap bodies, sure you might need to rework your lists but that it to be expected with a new codex.

The one thing I will admit is bad is that we lost actual models. We shouldn't have lost actual models and if GW cares so much about having a model for every unit in the codex they should have made the hydra kit with an existing gun that fills a redundant role.


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Zengu wrote:
A vanquisher and a devil dog do the same thing and cost the same .... One is 14 armour 72'' range. The other 12 armour 24 12 for the melta to kick in what the.....

Vanquisher fills a more important slot and the devil dog is a fast vehicle. I choose the vanquisher because I like it, but the Devil Dog still has its use, particularly in an army filled with tanks already, use the tanks to kill infantry, use devil dogs to kill tanks.

 Rostere wrote:
It seems Carapace armour is suddenly cheap and worth it.

What a boring end for the PBS though...

I wonder about the Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Primaris Psykers. Do any of these actually use up HQ slots? Or are they just HQ units? Is a servitor with HB really 20 points?

Commissars are 1 per CCS or PCS: right after rolling warlord trait, you must place your commissar in a squad which they cannot leave, which includes; IS, PCS, CCS, SWS, HWS, conscript, Vets, Ogryn, bullgryn, Scion command Squad, Scions. One per unit.
so yes; 50 conscript with Ld 9 please..or HWS with Ld9 to take orders.

Priests, Primaris, Tech-Priests are 0-3 do not qualify as mandatory HQ and don't take up a FoC spot.

and yes; HB Servitors are 20pts: 10 for the body, 10 for the gun.

That missile thingy... 10" diameter, Str 10, AP 1, ignores cover? Once per game or not, that's ... surely that can't be right. And you can take three?

The mind reals at this.

Hey Jex, is there any cool new special war gear that can be taken? If so, how many points is it? What does it do? Who can take it? Early rumors mentioned the Tech priest could take something like a power field generator, is that true?

Wakshaani wrote:
That missile thingy... 10" diameter, Str 10, AP 1, ignores cover? Once per game or not, that's ... surely that can't be right. And you can take three?

The mind reals at this.

Its the same as it currently is.

Except the new version can launch on the first turn, and a little more reliably than before.

Wakshaani wrote:That missile thingy... 10" diameter, Str 10, AP 1, ignores cover? Once per game or not, that's ... surely that can't be right. And you can take three?

The mind reals at this.

Nope, still limited at 1 per squad, but you can fill your HS slots with 3 of them..and the stats are right; Str10, AP 1 ignore cover, Apocalyptic blast single use, you can't fire it turn 1 or any turn it moved, can start shooting it turn 2; needs a 4+ to fire it, a natural 6 is always makes it fire.

l0k1 wrote:Hey Jex, is there any cool new special war gear that can be taken? If so, how many points is it? What does it do? Who can take it? Early rumors mentioned the Tech priest could take something like a power field generator, is that true?

Well, there's the hot-shot volley gun.. only scions can take it..24inch Str4 AP3 Salvo 2/4.

Vehicle got the Augur array, so models deep striking at 6 inch don't scatter..the fire barrel's nice too, first enemy to charge the vehicle gets D6 Str4 AP5 randomly allocated hits.

Really the best things are the Warlord Trait and the orders, the wargear's pretty much the same all across the boar,d if only a bit cheaper for vehicles, and pretty much the same for infantry (with melee weapons being higher priced, and the basic Sgt can now take a boltgun, so they can actually do something in the 12-24 range,)

TP can only take melta-bombs and get a squad of up to 5 servitor with each TP you got

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The Priest only got a basic CCW weapon and can only pick between a plasma gun for 15 or an autogun for free.

A plasma GUN, not a plasma pistol? Can you confirm this? Does this mean that you can add an extra plasma gun IC to any plasma squad?

Also for special gear, those are the Relic the Guard gets

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Relics: some are nice others are..meh..Only the Company Commander and Lord commissar can take those

The Emperor's Benediction S5AP4 bolt pistol (pistol, precision shot, master crafted) only 5 pts, but Lord Commissar only. (since ithe weapon got Precisioon shot, I suppose that means every shot got that rule, so no need to roll a 6)

Tactical auto-reliquary of Tyberius, Company Commander only 25 pts(any order by the officer with that relic roll that gets a double gets Inspired tactics, i.e no need to roll for orders this turn, all orders auto-passes. roll 2 ones though, and it gets turned off for the rest fo the game)

Laurels of Command Company Commander only 25 pts (when any unit at 6 inches of the bearer is required to make a morale check, the bearer decide if they pass or no. If the bear dies, everyone at 6 inch form the codex must make a pinning test)

Kurov's Aquila Company Commander only 60 pts (bearer and any codex unit at 6 inch gains preferred enemy; bearer can re-roll a single failed Ld test per turn)

Blade of Conquest, replace CCW, 25pts : a +1 AP3 Master-crafted power sword

Deathmask of Ollanus 30 pts: Bearer gains 4++, it will not die and Fear.

Peregrine: Yes, I confirm, it is a plasmagun for 15 pts. and an autogun for free. Personally, the autogun is really a freebie so that it can do something at 12-24 if you're tight on points and can't spare 15 (or don't want to risk loosing your melee booster character)...and with his rosarius, it's like he's wearing carapace too!

 TheKbob wrote:
There's absolutely zero reason to mess with the Chimera, it's worked well across what, 4 codecis now?

To be fair, it actually hasn't. The Chimera with five fire points was new for the 5th edition IG codex, previously it had two fire points from the top hatch and lasguns on the side. The 5th edition rules simplified it to five fire points, and apparently someone realized that this wasn't a very good idea balance-wise and didn't represent the model very well. Now you can still shoot from it, but you have some incentive to occasionally disembark a squad instead of just keeping them in the melta bunker all game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Peregrine: Yes, I confirm, it is a plasmagun for 15 pts. and an autogun for free

Interesting. Special weapons on an HQ IC aren't exactly common. I suspect the other HQs will be better for shooting armies, but I kind of like the idea of adding a fourth plasma gun to my vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Nope, still limited at 1 per squad, but you can fill your HS slots with 3 of them..and the stats are right; Str10, AP 1 ignore cover, Apocalyptic blast single use, you can't fire it turn 1 or any turn it moved, can start shooting it turn 2; needs a 4+ to fire it, a natural 6 is always makes it fire.

So we've officially seen our first codex unit with an Apocalypse weapon. So much for that whole "Escalation isn't real 40k" thing.

The priest is still a guardsman stated char with 2 attacks, but an extra plasma shot or two is never refused!

As for the Deathstrike, The blast would be to stop the randomness of the old codex, and also to sell some apocalyptic blast kits..but who knows, it can well be the first of many apocalypse/escalation add-ons.

The changes to "Fire on my target" to give ignores cover is huge.

Ignore cover lascannons/autocannons taking down wave serpents.

Ignore cover plasma vets with 3x plasma guns etc stripping white scar bikers of their 4+ or 3+ cover save and their armor save.

Tau like power...

Tau are going to be hurt by our orders, same as eldar. However Deldar are going to have a field day fighting us

Jex, is Pask HQ only or can he occupy a tank in a HS slot

Oh and your MoO with orders and prescience just gave you your colossus back

Wait so regular infantry squads can or cannot take a special weapon?
If not I dont see the connection between the chimera 2 fire point thing...

Sorry if i missed it as it seems a lot of everything changed from like 80 pages ago.

so is marbo really gone? or was he hiding the whole time?

Pask is a Tank commander, so he is a HQ unit.

Regular Infantry Squads are exactly the same as before; one heavy weapon, one special weapon per squad.

The only thing they go changed is that Sargents can now take a boltgun for 1 pt

And with that, good night; need an info, PM me, or read a few pages back for the the juicy bits.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Pask is a Tank commander, so he is a HQ unit.

Regular Infantry Squads are exactly the same as before; one heavy weapon, one special weapon per squad.

The only thing they go changed is that Sargents can now take a boltgun for 1 pt

And with that, good night; need an info, PM me, or read a few pages back for the the juicy bits.

Cheers Jex, thanks a bunch for all the info.

 TheSilo wrote:
To all the haters, boo friggin' boo hoo.

We lost three artillery tanks and gained one. They all did the same thing any way

Dude, do you even play IG?

Yeah, S6, AP3, large blast, ordnance, ignores cover is totally the same as S10, AP1, Heavy, Blast is totally the same as S6, AP4, Ordnance Barrage large blast.

Thanks Jex!

Hmmmmm, Augur array + Servo Skulls = Something....

Here's hoping the DKoK lists keep their artillery, as much as it sucks for regular IG to lose them, I like the fact that the FW lists are now even more different than the regular IG stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:

So we've officially seen our first codex unit with an Apocalypse weapon. So much for that whole "Escalation isn't real 40k" thing.

The Deathstrike already had a blast diameter>5". It was D3+3" RADIUS blast, emphasis on radius.