Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm firmly in the "GW sucks balls ATM" camp, both in terms of the quality of product (mainly rules) they put out and some pants-on-head stupid strategic decision making that's going on, GW has lots of problems, not running sales isn't one of them. This isn't white knighting, this is I-do-this-gak-for-a-living.

Increase of customers

Increasing customers? Or increasing transactions? Are these new customers? Returning customers? Or just the same customers altering their behaviour because you offered a discount?

If your customers are primarily collectors in some way (as GW's are), will the majority of them buy the same stuff at full price anyway in the near future?

and an excuse to get rid off all those OOP models they have stored, instead of throwing them away and losing money.

Now we're dealing with a targeted promotion, rather than a sale, and this one may have some merit. It really depends on what GW thinks it's ratio of customers who want one for nostalgia reasons is versus customers who want a bargain/want to make money on the second hand market. The first lot are good (as they'll also buy current/new versions of models), the second lot is just cannibalising their own sales.

That being said, looking at recent events, simply having the news that some things are disappearing forever seems to be sufficient to make people go crazy for them without discounting them at all eg Specialist Games.

Increase of customers means new blood.

For a product like GW it probably doesn't, at least not in significant amounts. More likely it leads to increased transactions with existing customers and pull-forward and devaluing of future sales.

Gathering some goodwill from a customer base that is abandoning them?

Working to eliminate the feeling of being cheated?

No one does this. They might say they're throwing you a deal because they're nice/want to reward loyalty or all that other guff, but that's just a marketing spiel, there will be a financial objective behind it.

And really, if price is an issue (which I believe it is), this is pissing in the wind, that problem can only be addressed by recalibrating the pricing across the range.

Hang on why am I justifying why sales are a good thing in retail?
That seems to be an absolute fundamental of retail with very few exception. Selling product = good. If you do so at a lower price now and then but sale more units that you otherwise wouldn't have you're coming out ahead.
That's just the way the retail world seems to work and I don't understand why GW would be an exception.

Because no one sits down and goes "let's have a sale today"? Sales and promotions are all designed to specific things (and not always by the shops selling the product, big corps like Unilever and P&G can dictate promotions down the chain for example). GW has no interest in selling more units for the sake of selling more units, that's what you do when you want market penetration. GW doesn't, they're a mature player in a market they dominate, their goal is to sell whatever units they think will maximise profit across the range of prices they can offer. That means that any revenue they generate from a sale has to be truly incremental (or more accurately, truly incremental revenue has to be greater than the revenue they gave away to customers who would have bought anyway but bought right now because of the sale).

and only recently have gone with this line of crap to justify not doing it.

There's a moral obligation to hold sales now?

EDIT1: bundle deals are not sales, I think maybe less anger and more clarity would help you illustrate your point better.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT2: barfolomew - GW can't just go round and undercut retailers it's sold it's product too by holding a sale, that's anti-competitive practise that it's prevented from doing as a result of being both the manufacturer and the retailer of the product.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The lord of skulls has bloodcrusher heads decorating for no reason other than its a quick and easy way to add details in CAD if you already have the heads.

They are not exactly bloodcrusher heads, they are about 50% smaller, and they have guns in their mouths. Clearly they were not a quick copy and paste. Plus, even taking the detail from something else is not a "snap" in CAD or any other program, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

1 GW only says that their customers are primarily collectors. GW also doesn't do market research.

2 the marketing spiel was EXACTLY the point I was making. At the moment GW seem to be at war with their fans, sending out C&D letters to fan sites, saying derogatory things about us on Facebook and closing down lines of communication, etc.

3 hell yes GW needs market penetration. Right now they are in very serious danger of losing their position as the default game in the next couple of years. In fact this has already happened in more than a few places.

 whitedragon wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The lord of skulls has bloodcrusher heads decorating for no reason other than its a quick and easy way to add details in CAD if you already have the heads.

They are not exactly bloodcrusher heads, they are about 50% smaller, and they have guns in their mouths. Clearly they were not a quick copy and paste. Plus, even taking the detail from something else is not a "snap" in CAD or any other program, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Are you arguing that resizing something in a CAD program is hard?

Or that making an inset to put a gun muzzle in a previously existing hole is also somehow hard to do in CAD?

 whitedragon wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The lord of skulls has bloodcrusher heads decorating for no reason other than its a quick and easy way to add details in CAD if you already have the heads.

They are not exactly bloodcrusher heads, they are about 50% smaller, and they have guns in their mouths. Clearly they were not a quick copy and paste. Plus, even taking the detail from something else is not a "snap" in CAD or any other program, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

CAD is all about copy and paste and rescaling a model is only a matter of a couple of clicks and fusing a gun in a mouth is only as involved of having the model for the gun and positioning it.
I use Solidworks at work and it really is that easy.
The hard part is making the original model, anything after that is far easier.
Not much different on how they used to do it: hack up a prior model and glue/sculpt the fiddly gaps, cast what you made, then spam the details on the bigger model.

 jonolikespie wrote:
1 GW only says that their customers are primarily collectors. GW also doesn't do market research.

I'm saying that GW customers behave as collectors, that is, broadly speaking they will continue to accumulate models over time, and as such sales (in general) just amount to throwing away money that they're going to give you anyway.

If the company has a strong cash flow position, there's just no need.

 jonolikespie wrote:
2 the marketing spiel was EXACTLY the point I was making. At the moment GW seem to be at war with their fans, sending out C&D letters to fan sites, saying derogatory things about us on Facebook and closing down lines of communication, etc.

Right, but the answer is to a) stop being a douchemuffin and b) conduct value-add/customer service activities that engage customers and help them have fun with the hobby (or HHHobby ). Bunging them a one-off or irregular discount doesn't make a dent in changing that view, it's just throwing away money instead of addressing the root cause.

 jonolikespie wrote:
3 hell yes GW needs market penetration. Right now they are in very serious danger of losing their position as the default game in the next couple of years. In fact this has already happened in more than a few places.

Nah, GW's nearest competitor is not much more than 10% of GW's turnover, to hit 25% of GW's turnover, the next 9 biggest would all have to be averaging around £2m annual turnover, which I suspect is a quite bullish requirement.

GW's declared focus is growing the market (ie dragging new gamers in), it's failing miserably (because it's pricing strategy is wrong). If it improved that and customer retention it would naturally achieve penetration (but as a side-effect, not a focus).

The original poster made some very good points and I do agree that Games Workshop is in trouble to some degree.

In my humble opinion, GW has become a victim of it's own creation and much like TSR they've become infamous at packaging up the same material over and over again for customers to purchase. Why would I spend $100 and buy a limited edition codex that will be obsolete in less than 4 years? At what price point do you cease the cannibalization of your customers?

The sad part is, at least from my perspective, Games Workshop has abandoned any sort of game balance with it's highest grossing product. (AKA- Warhammer 40,000) Starting with 6th edition 40k, GW shifted gears and began a focus to capture more model sales (Which make up their highest profit margin.) They did so by introducing allies, fortifications, Forge World, super heavies, ect... They all point towards one direction - Increase model sales to capitalize on those who already own existing armies. Because, once you an army, your codex, and a set of the rules what more do you need to purchase?

Wizards of the Coast makes money hand over fist by pushing Magic the Gathering CCG cards, because they've discovered the formula to continued sales is by keeping their price point relatively low and support a friendly, but competitive structure. Where GW has abandoned all support for tournaments, game balance, and their initial price point.... It used to be that a logical progression as a young gamer who played CCG's that enjoyed competition, but wanted something more into the hobby than buying cards could grow into a Warhammer player. That player could bring his strategy and tactical skills from deck building into army list construction and hopefully modeling and painting at the same time....

The problem is that players want balance. All the beautiful models and all the awesome Black Library fluff mean nothing in game terms if nobody wants to play your game. Almost 4 years ago GW started producting these beautiful hard-bound army books with full color pictures and jacked up the price to $50 each with limited edition copies going for $100. Most everyone agreed that the new books are beautiful and some say they are worth the price, however we haven't hit a point yet where one of those is replaced with a new edition meaning that your beautiful hard-bound book is no more than re-printed fluff and pictures like all the older ones. When you have a game that cycles on a new edition every 4 years, you are basically over-paying for a product with a limited shelf life....

To the point that the original poster made with the comparison of TSR to GW, I actually wonder more about the comparison of D&D to Warhammer and 40k. Basically, at what point will players cease playing the new edition in favor of an older one?

 Wolflord Patrick wrote:
Basically, at what point will players cease playing the new edition in favor of an older one?

There is also the aspect of they just quit for good instead of continuing to play. It would be nice to be able to play past editions, but the majority of people play the latest edition because that's the easiest to get a game with. Only those with continuously populated clubs have the option to play older editions at any real level of consistency.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Unfortunately, you remember wrong. The inconvenient truth of gaming is that video game prices have come down dramatically over time.

Remember, a video game that cost $50-60 in 1990 costs much, much more now.


As a point of comparison, GW's prices have not only increased, but usually increased far more then is immediately noticeable, as boxed kits have frequently had their contents substantially decreased with the prices remaining the same.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Unfortunately, you remember wrong. The inconvenient truth of gaming is that video game prices have come down dramatically over time.

Remember, a video game that cost $50-60 in 1990 costs much, much more now.

Spoiler:

As a point of comparison, GW's prices have not only increased, but usually increased far more then is immediately noticeable, as boxed kits have frequently had their contents substantially decreased with the prices remaining the same.

One also has to factor in the quality - a game made today is a lot more advanced; both in terms of programming and graphics, than a game made back then.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
It'll be interesting how long they renew a licence to FFG. Collaborations with GW don't seem to last long before GW decide they don't like someone else doing a better job than them and take their toys back.

Well, if GW can afford to lose the licensing revenue, I'm sure they will pull the FFG license. I don't think they can afford to cross it off of their balance sheet at the moment.

 jonolikespie wrote:
1 GW only says that their customers are primarily collectors.

Actually, GW's target customer is the 14 year old millionaire art collector only interested in toy soldier art

 jonolikespie wrote:
2 the marketing spiel was EXACTLY the point I was making. At the moment GW seem to be at war with their fans, sending out C&D letters to fan sites, saying derogatory things about us on Facebook and closing down lines of communication, etc.

Wasn't that just one manager though? I'd hardly say he speaks for everyone in the company, if you are referring to the same post I am thinking of.

 Baragash wrote:
Nah, GW's nearest competitor is not much more than 10% of GW's turnover, to hit 25% of GW's turnover, the next 9 biggest would all have to be averaging around £2m annual turnover, which I suspect is a quite bullish requirement..

If you are talking about PP, yeah I'd agree. I had worked for both PP and GW and from my experience GW makes more product to fulfill orders in one week than PP does in an entire month. PP is a very small company, most people just don't realize that because it's privately owned and we can't see their numbers.

 prplehippo wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
2 the marketing spiel was EXACTLY the point I was making. At the moment GW seem to be at war with their fans, sending out C&D letters to fan sites, saying derogatory things about us on Facebook and closing down lines of communication, etc.

Wasn't that just one manager though? I'd hardly say he speaks for everyone in the company, if you are referring to the same post I am thinking of.

There was one facebook quote, from an individual manager, as far as I remember on his personal feed, which was recanted and apologised for soon afterwards.

Of course, this one personal line, from one employee out of thousands, has been taken as official company policy, and has grown like Chinese whispers, by the schadenfreude addicts to the point it's now treated as if it were an official press release.

Kirby might well be an ass but plenty of the bad things he's 'done' exist only in fevered imaginations.

 Wayshuba wrote:
He picked up a $30 plastic Space Marine Librarian and a nearby Hell Dorado character model priced at $10.99. He looked at me and said something to the effect "$11 for metal and $30 for cheap plastic?" This GW company is seriously whacked with what they charge for cheap plastic and I have no interest. You older guys waste your money on this junk, but it is your money. Me and my friends won't go near this game." I told him about it being a character model, explained how troops were cheaper, etc. How fun it was to play with such variety. All the typical drivel we have used for years. His response after my drivel was (and I will never forget this line), "Dude, no game is that good to pay so much money for cheap plastic models."

I have to agree with him. The only reason I still play/paint GW games and miniatures is because I'm so invested into the games (I'm a fan of Lord of the Rings, and Raven Guard Space Marines). But if I was a fresh faced newcomer today in 2014, I wouldn't even consider GW with the current price gouging.

I'd buy a PS4 or a PC instead.

You worked for PP? Doing what?

/curious

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
There was one facebook quote, from an individual manager, as far as I remember on his personal feed, which was recanted and apologised for soon afterwards.
Of course, this one personal line, from one employee out of thousands, has been taken as official company policy, and has grown like Chinese whispers, by the schadenfreude addicts to the point it's now treated as if it were an official press release.

It is interesting though, at least in the USA, that companies have a clause in their handbooks (GW had this when I was there) stating that an employees actions/demeanor/speech/behavior/etc represents and reflects on the company as a whole and that the company has the right to control/monitor such behavior at work and off work.

But when an employee actually says or does something that does reflect poorly on the company, suddenly that employee doesn't speak for the company or doesn't represent the company, we can't control what he says, etc, etc.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 prplehippo wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
2 the marketing spiel was EXACTLY the point I was making. At the moment GW seem to be at war with their fans, sending out C&D letters to fan sites, saying derogatory things about us on Facebook and closing down lines of communication, etc.

Wasn't that just one manager though? I'd hardly say he speaks for everyone in the company, if you are referring to the same post I am thinking of.

There was one facebook quote, from an individual manager, as far as I remember on his personal feed, which was recanted and apologised for soon afterwards.

Of course, this one personal line, from one employee out of thousands, has been taken as official company policy, and has grown like Chinese whispers, by the schadenfreude addicts to the point it's now treated as if it were an official press release.

Kirby might well be an ass but plenty of the bad things he's 'done' exist only in fevered imaginations.

Someone with a better memory than me will no doubt be able to recall his name, but he wasn't an "individual manager" (at least not at store level) IIRC but had served at the executive level. (He also had a somewhat sordid history with accusations of sexual assault while a serving police officer too if I'm thinking if the right guy.)

Besides, these rumours have been around a lot longer than that (this happened last year or the latter part of 2012) and there's been more than one ex employee that has confirmed the attitude is certainly present in an element of senior management, so whether it is a few individuals or more endemic is probably up for debate, but that the attitude exists within the corporation probably isn't.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Of course, this one personal line, from one employee out of thousands, has been taken as official company policy, and has grown like Chinese whispers, by the schadenfreude addicts to the point it's now treated as if it were an official press release.

This just in: Statements made by company representatives are treated as representative of the company.

More breaking news at 5.

Did GW come out and make a statement saying that they don't agree with this guy? If not, that's the same as agreeing.

 azreal13 wrote:

Someone with a better memory than me will no doubt be able to recall his name, but he wasn't an "individual manager" (at least not at store level) IIRC but had served at the executive level. (He also had a somewhat sordid history with accusations of sexual assault while a serving police officer too if I'm thinking if the right guy.)

Besides, these rumours have been around a lot longer than that (this happened last year or the latter part of 2012) and there's been more than one ex employee that has confirmed the attitude is certainly present in an element of senior management, so whether it is a few individuals or more endemic is probably up for debate, but that the attitude exists within the corporation probably isn't.

IIRC, someone posted that the individual in question didn't work for GW at the time and also, IIRC, it sounded as if he was blowing off, trying to show he was a big shot and more important than was in fact the case.

Every large company has its share of prats. One post doesn't constitute compelling evidence that the company culture is one of contempt for its customers.

I think GW would have to have a big failure to make them fall any time soon. Big shops like HMV get into trouble when they can't get credit to buy stock, which means the shelves end up empty. This problem feeds into itself because you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you need credit to pay the bills and buy stock and get rolling.

Do GW have any big bills that they need to cover? They manage their own production, they can manage stores that become a burden. Unless they invest heavily in a product that flops and costs them a huge amount of money, there's no reason for them to sudden crash, just continually decline. From what I recall of investor reports, they're sitting on cash and assets even if their profit doesn't look good.

I've said for a while that GW only make their big three because they don't have the competence or confidence to release much else. Space Hulk was a re-release, Dreadfleet an embarrassment. If they were to release a whole new edition of Fantasy or 40K that flopped big time they would be in big trouble. But to be honest they can be pretty sure there will be people wanting to buy Marines. The only disaster that could be looming is from the Hobbit. How much does the licence cost and how long are they tied into paying it? How well is it actually selling and is it pulling them down? Only time will tell, if the Hobbit is a time bomb waiting they'll keep quiet as long as possible.

They could renegotiate the licence for The Hobbit if they had to.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Someone with a better memory than me will no doubt be able to recall his name, but he wasn't an "individual manager" (at least not at store level) IIRC but had served at the executive level. (He also had a somewhat sordid history with accusations of sexual assault while a serving police officer too if I'm thinking if the right guy.)

Besides, these rumours have been around a lot longer than that (this happened last year or the latter part of 2012) and there's been more than one ex employee that has confirmed the attitude is certainly present in an element of senior management, so whether it is a few individuals or more endemic is probably up for debate, but that the attitude exists within the corporation probably isn't.

IIRC, someone posted that the individual in question didn't work for GW at the time and also, IIRC, it sounded as if he was blowing off, trying to show he was a big shot and more important than was in fact the case.

Every large company has its share of prats. One post doesn't constitute compelling evidence that the company culture is one of contempt for its customers.

Someone argued tooth and nail he no longer worked for GW but his LinkedIn page said he still was. And he was the head of either sales or marketing in north America if memory servers.

And I get what your saying about it being just 1 guy but that one facebook post is the only time we have been addressed by senior level staff in years. The next closest thing to that in terms of comunication is reading Kirbys intro on the shareholder reports where he talks about selling toys to kids or the guys at the chaptethouse trial telling the court GWs customers favourite part of the hobby is buying things from GW.

You will never know what GW really think of their customers since they never deign to communicate with them. But here is some info from several former GW sales managers, who were quite high up the GW food chain at one point:

filbert wrote:...GW call their customers things like "Geek, Gomer, Sheep, and Pleb"....

From the following threads:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/369325.page#2981277

http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5023-are-you-a-faction-whore/page-7?hl=gomer

Obviously, this sort of terminology doesn't crop up in public but it does give some insight into just how the upper echelons of GW really feel about the people that buy their games.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Someone with a better memory than me will no doubt be able to recall his name, but he wasn't an "individual manager" (at least not at store level) IIRC but had served at the executive level. (He also had a somewhat sordid history with accusations of sexual assault while a serving police officer too if I'm thinking if the right guy.)

Besides, these rumours have been around a lot longer than that (this happened last year or the latter part of 2012) and there's been more than one ex employee that has confirmed the attitude is certainly present in an element of senior management, so whether it is a few individuals or more endemic is probably up for debate, but that the attitude exists within the corporation probably isn't.

IIRC, someone posted that the individual in question didn't work for GW at the time and also, IIRC, it sounded as if he was blowing off, trying to show he was a big shot and more important than was in fact the case.

Every large company has its share of prats. One post doesn't constitute compelling evidence that the company culture is one of contempt for its customers.

I would argue that the proof is in the pudding, and the actions of the company over the past 3-4 years could only come as a result of contempt. Or, perhaps that is too strong a word - really, I think it just an indifference to the long-term fanbase.

If it means anything at all, I heard the word 'sheep' used years ago while I was in the company - although yes that may have been a singular instance.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Someone with a better memory than me will no doubt be able to recall his name, but he wasn't an "individual manager" (at least not at store level) IIRC but had served at the executive level. (He also had a somewhat sordid history with accusations of sexual assault while a serving police officer too if I'm thinking if the right guy.)

Besides, these rumours have been around a lot longer than that (this happened last year or the latter part of 2012) and there's been more than one ex employee that has confirmed the attitude is certainly present in an element of senior management, so whether it is a few individuals or more endemic is probably up for debate, but that the attitude exists within the corporation probably isn't.

IIRC, someone posted that the individual in question didn't work for GW at the time and also, IIRC, it sounded as if he was blowing off, trying to show he was a big shot and more important than was in fact the case.

Every large company has its share of prats. One post doesn't constitute compelling evidence that the company culture is one of contempt for its customers.

Someone argued tooth and nail he no longer worked for GW but his LinkedIn page said he still was. And he was the head of either sales or marketing in north America if memory servers.

And I get what your saying about it being just 1 guy but that one facebook post is the only time we have been addressed by senior level staff in years. The next closest thing to that in terms of comunication is reading Kirbys intro on the shareholder reports where he talks about selling toys to kids or the guys at the chaptethouse trial telling the court GWs customers favourite part of the hobby is buying things from GW.

He had been my Director for Growth. I worked for him when he was let go. I know people want to say he was a part of the company when he said that, but he wasn't. I can't on dakka prove it I guess. But it is the truth. The scandal what people chose to believe so I guess this will continue to be brought up again and again. As to why his Facebook said he worked for GW? I have no idea as it said that for a year or more after he was let go.

It will continue to grow because GW does nothing to refute it.

Well, unless he was groped by a nerd at some point between leaving GW and posting that/those comment/s, isn't it a little irrelevant whether he was employed by GW at the time or not with regards to his attitude?

I really don't see how the obvious contempt could have been completely absent until his post GW career.

While we will never see a statement from GW to the effect of "anyone over 16 who buys any of out products is a gullible gakker" one can't ignore the smoke that wafts out of Lenton every so often, and there's only so far one can blame short termism PLC disease for all the stuff that happens that just feths those of us with a few extra winters under our belts off.

What baffles me is that they don't even have to know or want to know how to keep Vets happy, just look around at companies in the sector with a better track record, rip off a bunch of their ideas, pocket a load of extra cash from customers who don't feel exploited any more? Who loses in those circumstances?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
They could renegotiate the licence for The Hobbit if they had to.

Right, and this is the most likely scenario.

They just aren't making money off the Hobbit miniatures, not ones that people don't use as conversions for 40k and Fantasy at any rate. I know exactly one person who does Hobbit miniatures, and it's not for the game's sake.

However, they wouldn't just up and abandon their own stock. GW has proven this in the past. It took them how many years to abandon their excessive backstock of pewter miniatures? And they still sell Cypher and a handful of models they produced way too many of, like all the other Dark Angel special character types.

Anyways, re: customer contempt;
It's bizarre to me how GW seems to actively hate it's fans. Ever notice on White Dwarf daily the names they feature seem to cycle around? They don't grab random fan photos. I know for a fact some of those people are GW employees at some of their one-man shops. It also amazes me how one of their subsidiaries in Forgeworld actively loves the fanbase and has great customer service. They respond to rules questions e-mails in, like, two days as opposed to literally not issuing an FAQ/Errata in about a year and never directly responding to customer rules question emails. The people I know who've been to both Warhammer World events hosted by G-Dub and the Forgeworld Opens say there's a night and day difference when talking to the designers. Seems like the guys making the codices and rulebooks are worn thin and tired of the hobby while the guys designing for Forgeworld can't wait to tell you about the stuff they're working on.