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USA

I mean, he's Captain America. Not Captain UK, Captain Germany, Captain Australia, Captain France, etc...


The list of each country mostly references popular persons/events/media that is relevant to the target audience and a set of American reference so well known just about anyone will be familiar (Star Wars/Trek appears on all the lists). A neat way for them to expand the appeal of the character beyond just being American to being more worldly.

And as I've ranted, Hollywood wants money. What better way to appeal to an audience than to reference things that matter to them? Like the fall of the Berlin Wall or the first Korean to win an Olympic medal?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 03:46:34


   
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Uk list says check out The Beatles, the US one says check out Disco. I think Britain wins there

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Australian one says "Skippy the Bush Kangaroo" and "Steve Irwin". There are bigger things than that here.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Australian one says "Skippy the Bush Kangaroo" and "Steve Irwin". There are bigger things than that here.


Not to people outside of Oz. All you are is dropbears, kangaroos, and Steve Irwin. At least it was Steve Irwin and not Crocodile Dundee.

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I'll give you that, Ahtman.

But in any case, only Aussies saw the Australian version of that list. Where were the Meat Pies? AFL? Ashes? Things that resonate with Australians rather than a cheesy TV show that more people these days have only heard of in passing than have actually seen.

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Could have been worse. It could have said Prisoner: Cell Block H or Neighbors.

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Well, The Ashes have been around for like 130 years, assuming that he spent any time with an Aussie, or an Englishman during the war, he'd know about it.
   
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I loved the Steven Strange reference. Where is his movie?

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Coming. Eventually. Best guess is Phase 3.

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It's turning people into super-heroes!!!

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I saw it last night. I'm a big Cap fan going way back, and a huge fan of Brubaker's run on the comics (which introduced the Winter Soldier). I thought the first film was a real missed opportunity for Marvel considering the great source material, so I was interested to see how the sequel shaped up.

Overall I thought it was a good film...probably the strongest all-around Marvel film to date. It wasn't really that complicated or nuanced as "political thrillers" go. It still had bad guys twirling their mustaches planning to kill millions of people, muah ha ha, and kind of a simplistic set piece thing at the end. But it reached a little higher than the other Marvel films, which can almost universally be described as fun, but by-the-book and very, very safe. I liked it, and thought it captured the Brubaker comics pretty well. Sebastian Stan looked like he walked right off the pages of the comic, and they nicely captured what a tragic, messed-up bastard Bucky is.

I think a couple of the female roles were slightly troublesome for me. Don't get me wrong -- Evans and Johanssen showed solid, flirty chemistry, and the characters contrasted nicely with their differing world views. It worked.

HOWEVER, that role -- the kick-ass, world-weary secret agent, foil for Steve, and love interest -- should be Sharon Carter. Natasha filling that role would be fine, except that they ALSO introduced Sharon in the movie and then proceeded to give THAT character short shrift.

I suppose that Natasha's presence kinda bridged the gap back to the Avengers (and I think the more casual fans have treated this movie as a Avengers sequel of sorts based on the box office). And ScarJo's name is bigger than Chris Evans when you're worried about the posters and marquees. There are plenty of reasons why it made sense to basically use Natasha as a Sharon stand-in. But as a Cap purist who appreciates some of the little things they got right, I thought that was a bigger thing that they got wrong. Sharon is Steve's Lois Lane.

Fight sequences were very good...really got Cap-style action down IMO. Cap's visuals and action work a lot better in his own movie than alongside Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, etc. Even Whedon couldn't figure out how to make that work like it does in comic panels. So it was great to see Cap getting to be Cap and not being overshadowed by thunder gods and green monsters in this one.

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I don't think Natasha becomes Cap's romantic interest, the movie made it clear that their relationship is very much 'complicated', and lore wise she and Hawkeye/Winter Soldier are supposed to be a 'thing'... also Daredevil, Spiderman, and I think Hercules...

In any case, complex intertwined romances (like say... a love pentagon consisting of Cap, Black Widow, Sharon Carter, Hawkeye, and Winter Soldier) draws in audiences more and creates more drama/tension, so I expect this is a very conscious choice by Marvel/Disney in the direction they're taking.


CoALabaer wrote:
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Oh, I'm not saying that Steve and Natasha are headed for romance. But basically everything Natasha is and does in the movie IS Sharon Carter. It's Natasha playing the role of Sharon Carter. And then you still have Sharon shoehorned in without any real enhancement to the story.

It actually makes me wonder if that role was originally written to be Sharon, but Marvel felt they needed another name actor (and maybe a clearer link to the Avengers) to ensure they got the bank they were looking for. So Sharon because Natasha, and Sharon got written in for potential future use in Cap 3. I think that's a waste of a great character and a very important person in the Cap mythos.

Most people watching this film won't care...I fully admit that. But as a long time Cap fan, that particular point doesn't sit well. I really liked it overall.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/10 15:17:53


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I suppose I can see your point, I didn't even realize that it was Sharon Carter til after the movie was over, she just kinda blended into the background... which is kinda how I felt about Black Widow in all her previous films as well lol, so there is still some hope.

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She was identified as Agent 13 earlier in the film, but it was completely missable.

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

Maybe it's just seeing it in the cinema(I bloody hate watching films in the cinema, some berk always has to bring in crisps/nachos, and idiots keep getting up every ten minutes to go to the bathroom, only reason I bothered is so Agents of SHIELD wouldn't spoiler the plot for me), but I didn't enjoy Winter Soldier nearly as much as the first Cap movie.

Spoiler:
Someone's already mentioned the whole thing about Fury being cool-beans with Insight right up until it became known as a HYDRA scheme, and that was jarring for me as well. They can't seem to decide if they want the audience to see Fury as a "shades of grey" antihero or just a straight up good-guy.

Bucky was done really well, I just wish there was more of him; given the run time, they could easily have cut some of the pointless stuff with "nameless bloke who leads the Strike Team" to give the Winter Soldier even just a couple of extra scenes.

Zola's appearance was actually my favourite bit, although I found it a bit weird he was suddenly all "Hail HYDRA!" and willing to die for the cause etc, the first film seemed to present him much more as your normal mad scientist who worked for HYDRA only because they were nutty enough to give him free reign to experiment, rather than because he was a true believer. Regardless he's a fun character, hopefully the whole "origin point" thing was some kind of scheme on his part to free himself from that bunker, and he snuck out on the super-USB-stick or similar.

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 Yodhrin wrote:
Maybe it's just seeing it in the cinema(I bloody hate watching films in the cinema, some berk always has to bring in crisps/nachos, and idiots keep getting up every ten minutes to go to the bathroom, only reason I bothered is so Agents of SHIELD wouldn't spoiler the plot for me), but I didn't enjoy Winter Soldier nearly as much as the first Cap movie.

Spoiler:
Someone's already mentioned the whole thing about Fury being cool-beans with Insight right up until it became known as a HYDRA scheme, and that was jarring for me as well. They can't seem to decide if they want the audience to see Fury as a "shades of grey" antihero or just a straight up good-guy.

Bucky was done really well, I just wish there was more of him; given the run time, they could easily have cut some of the pointless stuff with "nameless bloke who leads the Strike Team" to give the Winter Soldier even just a couple of extra scenes.

Zola's appearance was actually my favourite bit, although I found it a bit weird he was suddenly all "Hail HYDRA!" and willing to die for the cause etc, the first film seemed to present him much more as your normal mad scientist who worked for HYDRA only because they were nutty enough to give him free reign to experiment, rather than because he was a true believer. Regardless he's a fun character, hopefully the whole "origin point" thing was some kind of scheme on his part to free himself from that bunker, and he snuck out on the super-USB-stick or similar.


Spoiler:
That would be my guess as to what happens, he's data, so he can't be 'killed' unless everything is destroyed, and given that we could fit all the tape reels in that room onto a USB anyway, its not out of the question.

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should be Sharon Carter


This isn't 616, or Ultimate for that matter, none of this should happen; some things will be the same, some will be different, and some will be similar. I don't think it was written for Sharon and was always intended to use elements of her role from the comic for Natasha because the audience has a history with the character, like the character, and gives the character within the MCU more depth. Sharon Carter was there to set up possible future storylines, but wasn't really needed yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 16:57:51


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Plus, Black Widow seemed to clearly know who 'Agent 13' really is. Throughout the entire film she was pretty much saying. "Ask her out. Ask her out. Do it. Ask her out."

If anything, it was more a younger brother/ older-sister thing with Cap and Widow. I thought it was done particularly well.
   
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I'm inclined to agree with Compel, but in regards to the brother/sister thing:

There is definitely an on-screen evolution between the two characters, at the start of the movie we see Black Widow discussing Caps personal life as if they are friends, except we know they aren't because she still prioritizes her mission above their friendship as we discover on board the ship. As the movie progresses we see she begins to question her ways and her job, wondering if her life is a lie, and she breaks down the wall that exists between her and Cap (really, between her and anyone we've seen on screen thus far, excepting Hawkeye, who we never really see make any sort of advance towards her, if anything he sees her as the little sister) and letting him into her personal life, they share a moment of vulnerability in the car, she asks if he's kissed anyone other than her since the 40s, she asks him who she wants him to be (hes a boy scout and replies 'A friend' and we can see just a hint of disappointment in her face), they share another moment at Falcons place (until he interrupts), we see them again both vulnerable, both dressed down, discussing whether or not Cap really trusts her, in a round about and indirect way questioning if theres anything there, Cap replies truthfully ("I do now") and we see emotional response from her which is a bit hard to discern, but looks like its surprise and relief.

The rest of the film, we see her back to the whole ("You should date so-and-so") routine at inappropriate times (rooftop, cemetery), basically just to kind of break tension and fill the silence with something. Natasha is seductive and manipulative and knows how to manipulate others emotions, but she doesn't necessarily know how to control or handle her own (short of outright suppressing them), so she's dealing with it by externally rationalizing and projecting onto Cap. At the end of the film, we can tell that neither her nor Cap really want to part ways because they've formed a bond, but the situation necessitates it. We can see she desires something more, she goes to kiss him, but only kisses his cheek, we see a slight hint of disappointment and confusion from Cap, and a bit of disappointment from her as well, but that kiss indicates affection, lots of it, more than most people will ever see from Black Widow, and about as much as she herself is comfortable (or capable) of openly expressing. It's also a sort of promise, a 'I'll see you again, stay safe." sort of thing.

On top of that, we know Natasha is a superspy, and is very good at reading people and situations and finding whatever information she needs to meet her purposes, there is no reason for her to ask Cap if he's called someone or gone out with someone, or what he thinks of someone, because she can figure it out just by standing in the same room as them (or tapping phones, hacking computers,etc). Her questioning him about those things is more psychological on her end, shes trying to get into his personal life to find out more about him, figure out what he's interested in, possibly manipulate the situation to her advantage, etc. but to also deflect her own feelings for him and throw him off her trail. Its something that many younger women do actually, I've been through it myself a couple times.

It's also important to note, that both Cap and Black Widow are 'outsiders', and also both polar opposites. Captain is a relic from 60+ years prior, a man out of his time and learning to adjust to a world very different from the one he was familiar with, with little in the way of friends or family to call on. Natasha has no true friends or family to speak of, excepting Hawkeye (who like Cap is also a loner, and also a bit of an idealist/humanist, though in a different sense and for different reasons), and though she isn't (technically?) superpowered, she does exist at a 'higher state' than the average human. The two of them are both effectively out of place, but can find that 'place' with one another since they have common ground (that few other people share) and are both looking for a place to fit in.

Going off of that, Black Widow is also a realist, she knows that Cap and her lead very similar, but incompatabile lifestyles, she knows that she isn't really comfortable (or perhaps even capable)being that sort of vulnerable, and she believes that she would hurt Cap (who she obviously very much cares about) if anything were to occur. Look who she keeps suggesting to Cap, the girl from finance/accounting/logistics/what have you. All normal people, leading relatively normal, uncomplicated lives. The only real exception to this, and the girl Black Widow always comes back to, is Sharon Carter/Agent 13/the Nurse neighbor girl: a field agent, a spy... a lesser spy, without many of the significant issues inherent to the Black Widow character, a more normal Black Widow if you will... someone with family, relationships, a stronger self-identity, a more stable lifestyle... the kind of girl Natasha suggests she wants to be at several points during the film, the kind of girl that she thinks Cap would want to be with, a 'safe' girl that won't hurt him or break his trust like she has.

Finally, its important to remember that Black Widow is a femme fatale, she knows it, she believes it, and this puts her at odds and in conflict with herself, she cannot attain that which she desires, because to do so would destroy what she desires, because that is what always happened in the past, and that is what she believes will always happen to her in the future, which means that for her to end up with Cap, in her mind, would mean an inevitable end to her and Cap, a sacrifice she wouldn't be willing to make provided she has real feelings for him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 18:03:39


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Just catching up on this thread. Saw the very end of the latest agents of shield but missed the rest.

Spoiler:
H.B.M.C. totally called it, guess they did have the balls if I understood the end correctly. Will rewatch tonight.

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 Ahtman wrote:
should be Sharon Carter


This isn't 616, or Ultimate for that matter, none of this should happen; some things will be the same, some will be different, and some will be similar. I don't think it was written for Sharon and was always intended to use elements of her role from the comic for Natasha because the audience has a history with the character, like the character, and gives the character within the MCU more depth. Sharon Carter was there to set up possible future storylines, but wasn't really needed yet.


Clearly box office is obviously driving that decision. And certainly it's great to have another chance to appreciate Johanssen's assets. But it's like a Spidey movie in which Peter spends the entire movie flirting and superheroing with Elektra, while Black Cat appears and gets a few unimportant scenes. Only Sharon is more important to Steve's story than Felicia ever was to Peter's. Still, Spidey fans would find that odd, right? Same thing here. It's a missed opportunity.

There's only one more Cap movie planned, and rumors are plentiful that they'll kill or retire him (since Evans' deal will be up and he doesn't sound interested in continuing). They can certainly follow the Brubaker formula from the comics for what happens next. So they're running out of time to do anything with Agent 13, unless they rush Steve and Sharon together at the end of the next one so they can live, retire, and hang out at cafes with Bruce and Selina. *shrug*

Regarding a certain villain..

Spoiler:
Maybe Zola found it easier to fully embrace Hydra after the maniac with the scarlet head was out of the picture.


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It's going to be interesting when the current crop "super heros" all are gone. Downey is supposedly only in for the Avengers 2 & 3 that this point while Evans and Hemsworth have both said their out when their contract is up which means they'll also only be in for Avengers 2 & 3 I believe. Which means at that point we're done with the actors who helped make the universer possible.

But on topic I loved Winter Soldier. Saw it buddies late at Adepticon. Had a blast. Probably tied with (if not exceeding) Thor 2 as my favorite marvel movie so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 18:41:28


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Yeah, they supposedly have films planned out to 2025? But starring who? LOL.

Seeing the Guardians of the Galaxy trailer really hammered home what a turning point it could be for the Marvel studio. Even some superhero fans aren't familiar with that team, so the movie's really going to need great word of mouth. The trailer seems to get some quizzical reactions from casual moviegoers.

Anyway, pull that one off and the studio will probably feel like the sky's the limit. Should it bomb or just kinda do lukewarm business, the studio might pull back and stay conservative (which it largely has been to this point).

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 gorgon wrote:
But it's like a Spidey movie in which Peter spends the entire movie flirting and superheroing with Elektra, while Black Cat appears and gets a few unimportant scenes. Only Sharon is more important to Steve's story than Felicia ever was to Peter's. Still, Spidey fans would find that odd, right? Same thing here. It's a missed opportunity.


Forgoing that I don't find the comparison apt at all*, all of that is based on the 616 universe and ignores that the MCU is it's own beast, and complaining that something different is, well, different, is a bit spurious. I'm a fan of the comic as well but I have had no issues separating the comics from the films, and appreciate that it isn't a straight up transliteration. So far Marvel Studios have been doing a good balancing act of fidelity to the source material while forging their own path.

*Electro is a through and through villain, and since Spider-man has not been shown to be even bisexual the fact he is a man also is good indicator that he might not be interested. Black Widow is neither, and in the MCU isn't even as much of an unknown quantity as she is in the comics. Now if you compared Betty Brant and Black Cat that might have been a bit more accurate, or Gwen Stacy and Black Cat.

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You just lost some nerd-cred Ahtman... Elektra is most definitely not a dude, and also not the same as Electro

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chaos0xomega wrote:
You just lost some nerd-cred Ahtman... Elektra is most definitely not a dude, and also not the same as Electro


I thought it said Electro lol. That certainly changes things.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 19:15:52


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I'm hoping Guardians does really well. I'd like to see more of the Space Epic/Opera style comics get movies, especially since Green Lantern's results kinda nixed us ever getting a good War of Light series of movies. I'm much more a Space comic fan than Super Heroes.

I kinda wish Hasbro would do their own version of the DC Direct animations,too. I'd love a series of ID More Than Meets The Eye toons...

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 Ahtman wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
But it's like a Spidey movie in which Peter spends the entire movie flirting and superheroing with Elektra, while Black Cat appears and gets a few unimportant scenes. Only Sharon is more important to Steve's story than Felicia ever was to Peter's. Still, Spidey fans would find that odd, right? Same thing here. It's a missed opportunity.


Forgoing that I don't find the comparison apt at all*, all of that is based on the 616 universe and ignores that the MCU is it's own beast, and complaining that something different is, well, different, is a bit spurious. I'm a fan of the comic as well but I have had no issues separating the comics from the films, and appreciate that it isn't a straight up transliteration. So far Marvel Studios have been doing a good balancing act of fidelity to the source material while forging their own path.

*Electro is a through and through villain, and since Spider-man has not been shown to be even bisexual the fact he is a man also is good indicator that he might not be interested. Black Widow is neither, and in the MCU isn't even as much of an unknown quantity as she is in the comics. Now if you compared Betty Brant and Black Cat that might have been a bit more accurate, or Gwen Stacy and Black Cat.


You've heard the rumors about Jamie Foxx, right?.

Felicia and ELEKTRA are a solid enough analogy to Sharon and Natasha. Each pair is more-or-less interchangeable onscreen (Felicia and Gwen aren't because Gwen isn't superheroic and can't replace Felicia throughout the story). Yet one character (Felicia/Sharon) is core to and a romantic interest in the hero's comic mythos, while the other (Elektra/Natasha) is neither.

Taking your line of thinking to an extreme, sure, Marvel would be well within its rights to portray the movie Cap as a disco-dancing lycanthrope with a rainbow cape, flames on his boots and a shield that shoots Cap-bolas. It's not the comic, it's their movie universe and they can do anything they want in it, much like this guy.



Some people might be okay with disco lycanthrope Cap it as long as he fought in WWII. For others, that'd cross the line and wouldn't be what they want to see from a Cap movie. Different people interface with the source material differently.

So yes, in fact personally I *can't* separate the movie and source material to where I think the spy Cap is supposed to kicking ass with is Natasha and not Sharon. I feel it's an important point in the source material that should be reflected in a Cap film. *shrug*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 21:07:35


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