Why do Chaos Marines seem so weak compared to their loyalists kin?

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**Lord Tarkin**

The slaughtering of the Orks was good and realistic until the chaos marines started gettin it. Like you said, they were terribly worfed But it was a fun game though

**A Town Called Malus**

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

**Exergy**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Remember though, the most important thing to take away from 40K is that modern Space Marines are actually better than Crusade-era space Marines. A big part of the Codex Astartes was removing all the substandard recruiting and training processes that were prevalent during the Crusade when the Legions were trying to churn out Space Marines as fast as possible to keep up with their high casualty rates. Basically, the Ultramarines were the best of the Legions, and the Codex Astartes was designed to turn all the Space Marines into Ultramarines. It's funny to think of because everything in 40K is supposed to be archaic and outdated, but that works in the Space Marines' favor because 10,000 years ago was the best time to be a Space Marine. So being stuck doing it the same way means they're still doing it the best way possible.

They might have had better recruiting and training practices, but the marines of the legions had much better battle exprience and better weapons and gear. Many SM in 40k have never seen real battle, or if they have only a few. Marines of the great crusade were very quickly educated in the ways of war by actually doing. Being instructed and led by their demigod primarchs must have helped a little too(all 18 we know of were a bit insane, but they had redeeming features)

**Farseer Anath'lan**

I don't know if you've ever had someone swing a crowbar at you, but it is very difficult to stop it with a piece of steel. An axe is a heavy piece of equipment, much more so then a crowbar. This particular example is massive, and is being wielded by a one-ton, genetically engineered super human. There is also the spinning teeth, which should royally screw the chainsword over. Yes, Jurgen kills him, but it is insanity that Cain (yes, you were right about it being him) can keep him occupied for even a couple seconds.

**Exergy**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The remaining Chaos Marines are mostly substandard replacements made from stolen geneseed.

Or you know, recent traitors ala Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs.

**Ashiraya**

Exergy wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The remaining Chaos Marines are mostly substandard replacements made from stolen geneseed.

Or you know, recent traitors ala Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs.

Substandard replacements a lá Daemonculaba are not the standard for Chaos Marines.

They still have their apothecaries. Unlike the Imperium, their tech is not stagnated or limited.

**Lord Tarkin**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

**Ashiraya**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

Thisssssssssssss so much.

Seeing Commissar Lords go around with WS/BS5 when not even Honour Guard (!) get that makes me cringe, btw.

**Veteran of The Long War**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
... They do make more Chaos Space Marines. They raid the Imperium for supplies of gene-seed, steal it from fallen Loyalists, and Fabius Bile has more-or-less figured out how to make it.
They make them alright, but at a much slower rate than the IoM replaces it's losses. Thus either Chaos has a higher kill ratio, or Chaos would have been defeated already.
No, they survive because they can run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom.

The other misconception is that most Chaos Marines are veterans of the Heresy. That's a minority. Most of the veterans of the Heresy are dead or transcended to daemonhood. Heck, most of the Traitors were killed in the Heresy. It's all there in the fluff. People just like to skip that part. The Legions didn't just give up and wander off. They ground themselves to burger at Terra, then were hounded and chased until the remnants were forced to retreat where the loyalists couldn't follow. The remaining Chaos Marines are mostly substandard replacements made from stolen geneseed.

Uhh, I don't know what fluff your reading but in every book based on one of the Legions most of them are veterans of the Heresy and the recent renegades are generally described as a minority. Heck, in Blood Gorgon's, the only CSM book about renegades they are all around 6000 years old, and they are are considered youngsters to the Death Guard they fight. Additionally, Chaos Space Marines can be brought back to life, which is another way they keep up there numbers of Veterans.

The argument that SM fight more and die more simply because of that is moot, since Chaos fight themselves all the time. It's how their rank system works, the ones on top are there because they got rid of the competitors. They are very Darwinian.
It's also a ridiculously awful way to run a military, lol. Because it means the strong lead the weak by eliminating the not quite as strong. And strength itself isn't a leadership quality.

The Orks choose leaders the same way. And you see how successful they tend to be.

da001 wrote:
Plot armor. The good guys always win.

It gets really annoying. In "Know no Fear", you read about some SM obliterating full squads of CSM with their mighty bolters while the enemy fire (bolters) only scratches their Power Armor.
This is just cheap and easy narrative device common to action stories. Space Marine power armor is only ever as powerful as it needs to be in any given situation.

If you read the Night Lords trilogy, on more than one occasion the loyalist Space Marines die ridiculously easily because the Night Lords need to win. It has nothing to do with the good guys always winning. Because they lose in the fluff too. I hate to pick on ADB because I like the guy, but another example that occurs to me is the battle at Armatura, where the World Eaters do everything wrong that you possibly could in warfighting, and still manage to win because angry. Where the Ultramarines have some hardened defensive position, and Kharn defeats it with the sheer power of angry and charging right at it. It's just that these stories aren't being written with technical accuracy as the main concern. Otherwise Marine vs Marine stories would actually be fairly boring.

Remember though, the most important thing to take away from 40K is that modern Space Marines are actually better than Crusade-era space Marines. A big part of the Codex Astartes was removing all the substandard recruiting and training processes that were prevalent during the Crusade when the Legions were trying to churn out Space Marines as fast as possible to keep up with their high casualty rates. Basically, the Ultramarines were the best of the Legions, and the Codex Astartes was designed to turn all the Space Marines into Ultramarines. It's funny to think of because everything in 40K is supposed to be archaic and outdated, but that works in the Space Marines' favor because 10,000 years ago was the best time to be a Space Marine. So being stuck doing it the same way means they're still doing it the best way possible.

You do realize that most Chaos Space Marines have lived in the Eye of Terror where every day is a battle for survival right? And how they consistently fight against there battle-brothers day after day? And even if the Great Crusade training was inferior, that was long ago and they have had 10000 years of combat experience.

**da001**

Inkubas wrote:

Wow, after reading some of these posts, it appears like chaos is not bad enough. Chaos is a MAJOR threat.

Or a villain-of-the-week cartoon villain, depending on the source. Coming to think of it, there are many novels and codexes/codices that depict CSM as little more than cultists.

(...)
There is no ONE team (CSM/SM) that is stronger or better.

This is the way it should be. By making the "bad guys" so stupid and incompetent, good stories turn into childish pew-pew-pew fantasies with no drama, no emotion, no tragedy, and no surprise at all. And I really dislike it when they retcon a Chaos victory into a SM victory. It cheapens the heroes as it cheapens the villains.

And it goes against the "narrative". If you read the HH books, all traitor Legions should have been destroyed at this point, due to the massive casualties they take everywhere.

**Lord Tarkin**

da001 wrote:
Inkubas wrote:

Wow, after reading some of these posts, it appears like chaos is not bad enough. Chaos is a MAJOR threat.

Or a villain-of-the-week cartoon villain, depending on the source. Coming to think of it, there are many novels and codexes/codices that depict CSM as little more than cultists.

(...)
There is no ONE team (CSM/SM) that is stronger or better.

This is the way it should be. By making the "bad guys" so stupid and incompetent, good stories turn into childish pew-pew-pew fantasies with no drama, no emotion, no tragedy, and no surprise at all. And I really dislike it when they retcon a Chaos victory into a SM victory. It cheapens the heroes as it cheapens the villains.

And it goes against the "narrative". If you read the HH books, all traitor Legions should have been destroyed at this point, due to the massive casualties they take everywhere.

I agree very much. Its boring reading about the repetitive SM victories.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

Thisssssssssssss so much.

Seeing Commissar Lords go around with WS/BS5 when not even Honour Guard (!) get that makes me cringe, btw.

Makes me cringe too. I know people want Commissars to kill some Chaos Marines to make them seem significant but logically, its not rational. Commissars win agaisnt Chaos Marines using their superior amounts of guardsmen, battle tactics and restore discipline. They were not meant to go toe-to-toe with genetically enhances killing machines. In 40k tabletop it gets pretty stupid but thats because it tries to make up for the fact that CSM's would be unbearably overpowering. A Commissar Lord killed Kharn in CC which couldn't happen in the fluff. And Chaos Champs don't stand a chance against one either.

**Ashiraya**

Lol, logically a CSM could kill a commissar by just sitting on him.

But then you would only need to buy a few CSM to play a decent sized army and we can't have that can we, nono the $$$ must flow.

**Animus**

Exergy wrote:

Many SM in 40k have never seen real battle, or if they have only a few.

Really?

Most Marines in 40k will have already seen quite a lot of battle as Scouts before they even get the opportunity to put on the power armour and a heck of a lot more as Devastators and Assault Marines before they can reach the tactical "backbone".
Legion Marines meanwhile just seem to have been crapped out and thrown about.

**TheCustomLime**

Yeah, I never saw Commissars as that elite of soldiers. They are just guardsmen with better aim, a stick up their ass and a fancier gun. Any sort of Space Marine should be able to swat one in close combat away.

Now, a platoon of Guardsman led by a Commissar....

**Exergy**

Animus wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Many SM in 40k have never seen real battle, or if they have only a few.

Really?
Most Marines in 40k will have already seen quite a lot of battle as Scouts before they even get the opportunity to put on the power armour and a heck of a lot more as Devastators and Assault Marines before they can reach the tactical "backbone".
Legion Marines meanwhile just seem to have been crapped out and thrown about.

Yeah really, most of the IoM is at peace. They train, they defend their fortress monestaries, they occationally run around and show the flag to keep local rulers in line, they spend years crossing the galaxy to respond to real battles.

They do battle, but nothing like the great crusade. The great crusade every planet was hostile, needed a full assault to subdue and then needed to be defended against a very hostile galaxy.

**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
Lol, logically a CSM could kill a commissar by just sitting on him.

But then you would only need to buy a few CSM to play a decent sized army and we can't have that can we, nono the $$$ must flow.

My point exactly haha gets crazy against orks. A 10 man Chaos squad can be butchered by a 30 man ork unit. In the fluff, that squad would have killed hundreds of orks, assailing them with bolter, grenade and knife. But again, lets take it easy on the ork player and not make him have to remove a couple hundred models lol

**Inky**

I think OP will never be truly happy till CSM are the bees knees in terms of both fluff and crunch.
They're weak in crunch because a) random tables and lack of delivery systems, and weak in fluff because a) The logistics argument, as even though Chaos has it's warpsmiths and forgeworlds, there's simply no way that it can content with the industrial titan that is the IoM. Like, for every dedicated forge world that Chaos has, the IoM has a gooooooood deal more. And though their workers may live in squalor and perpetual grimdark, they don't have quite as much risk of being torn to ribbons by daemons or other gribbly creatures. b) Warrior Vs.Soldier argument, as though CSMs are undoubtedly better fighters (the whole, 'living in a realm of perpetual battle, carnage and general unpleasantness' tends to cause that) they (with notable exceptions of Word Bearers and Black Legion) don't tend to fight as a coherent military force, or at least, as much as regular SMs do. The reason black crusades are such a big deal is that it's bloody rare for the might of the eye of terror together and acting in synergy and "teamwork"
There's only been 13 of them since the heresy, which shows a certain lack of cohesion between legions. The point isn't that the legions can't work together (they just find it very temporary) it's just that SM have the whole 'teamwork' and 'dieing for a brother' down. Chaos is good at killing and burning, SM is better at achieving objectives (or at least, that's how it was explained to me by local fluff-nut who works for GW)

Also the whole 'plot armour' argument extends to every single faction there is.
Like, look into every codex and you'll get it.

All Black Library books have it, they're mostly pulp fiction and not particularly well thought out.

**Kain**

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

But yeah, plot armour. The good guys need to win. And the only real way for the storyline to stay stagnant is to maintain the status quo. That means killing off the hundreds of Chaos Marines that just pop out of the woodwork when ever we turn our backs.

Bane-.- wrote:
Grimdark is nothing but shades of very, very dark grey.

50 shades?

Cain (and Jurgen) has killed Warbosses, Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princesses, Genestealer Broodlords, Daemons, and Chaos Lords.

It's like Obyron and Zandrekh.

**Animus**

Exergy wrote:
Yeah really, most of the IoM is at peace.

Even if that was true, the Marines go looking for fights and responding to distress calls or calls to battle.
Look at the Ultramarines, despite Ultramar being mostly peaceful they range about and get into fights all the time.
And again, to progress to what is essentially a line trooper they need to be hurled into war again and again.

Exergy wrote:
They do battle, but nothing like the great crusade. The great crusade every planet was hostile, needed a full assault to subdue and then needed to be defended against a very hostile galaxy.

I'd say the fighting is harder, because they face world destroying threats such as Tyranids, Necrons and full Chaos manifestations, but do so without being part of a Legion.

**Lord Tarkin**

Exergy wrote:
Animus wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Many SM in 40k have never seen real battle, or if they have only a few.

Really?
Most Marines in 40k will have already seen quite a lot of battle as Scouts before they even get the opportunity to put on the power armour and a heck of a lot more as Devastators and Assault Marines before they can reach the tactical "backbone".
Legion Marines meanwhile just seem to have been crapped out and thrown about.

Yeah really, most of the IoM is at peace. They train, they defend their fortress monestaries, they occationally run around and show the flag to keep local rulers in line, they spend years crossing the galaxy to respond to real battles.

They do battle, but nothing like the great crusade. The great crusade every planet was hostile, needed a full assault to subdue and then needed to be defended against a very hostile galaxy.

Well actually Space Marines do earn a level of experience. They are always at war with the enemies of mankind but lets entertain the notion that they aren't. They are still frequently called upon to quell rebellions and Chapter Masters often send their youngest men to do so. This is usually they're reserve companies and the scout company, with the sergeants teaching their youthful brothers the ways of combat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inky wrote:
I think OP will never be truly happy till CSM are the bees knees in terms of both fluff and crunch.
They're weak in crunch because a) random tables and lack of delivery systems, and weak in fluff because a) The logistics argument, as even though Chaos has it's warpsmiths and forgeworlds, there's simply no way that it can content with the industrial titan that is the IoM. Like, for every dedicated forge world that Chaos has, the IoM has a gooooooood deal more. And though their workers may live in squalor and perpetual grimdark, they don't have quite as much risk of being torn to ribbons by daemons or other gribbly creatures. b) Warrior Vs.Soldier argument, as though CSMs are undoubtedly better fighters (the whole, 'living in a realm of perpetual battle, carnage and general unpleasantness' tends to cause that) they (with notable exceptions of Word Bearers and Black Legion) don't tend to fight as a coherent military force, or at least, as much as regular SMs do. The reason black crusades are such a big deal is that it's bloody rare for the might of the eye of terror together and acting in synergy and "teamwork"
There's only been 13 of them since the heresy, which shows a certain lack of cohesion between legions. The point isn't that the legions can't work together (they just find it very temporary) it's just that SM have the whole 'teamwork' and 'dieing for a brother' down. Chaos is good at killing and burning, SM is better at achieving objectives (or at least, that's how it was explained to me by local fluff-nut who works for GW)

Also the whole 'plot armour' argument extends to every single faction there is.
Like, look into every codex and you'll get it.

All Black Library books have it, they're mostly pulp fiction and not particularly well thought out.

Yes, the IoM has more forgeworlds but keep in mind that they're time is frequently sucked up by the fact that they have to supply billions of weapons and gear for the inumerable troops the Imperium has (mainly guardsmen) and they have to supply billions more for the PDF of thousands of planets. Why do you think Imperial citizens or even troops that aren't cleared for its use are put to death if they are found in possession of even a single bolt round or bolter for that matter? Because the Imperium can't afford to have people who dont have permission for such a weapon of war to hold onto it. SM chapters usually pick up supplies from a single nearby forgeworld and they live off it while the rest of them provide for the quantities of the Imperium which is neccesary for its continued survival.

**A Town Called Malus**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

And Cain is a coward who has to live up to a hero's reputation in order to keep on being a coward. Never underestimate how much cowards want to survive and what they can (and will) do to ensure they do

Also a berserker just keeps swinging, they don't feint, or use any tricks. Cain doesn't have to block the big axe, just get out of its way which is, with his battle-hardened and cowardice-enhanced reflexes, possible.

**MWHistorian**

Cain is not a good example or accurate* fluff.

*relatively accurate.

**Ashiraya**

Space Marines are constantly at war. They are too few to do anything else. Even then, have you seen their day plan?

**A Town Called Malus**

MWHistorian wrote:
Cain is not a good example or accurate* fluff.

*relatively accurate.

Actually, the Cain books are probably the least biased (in fluff) books in the Black Library. Considering they're (in fluff) all banned by the Inquisition and definitely do not portray Cain in the light that the Imperium would want.

So they're one of the few series which are immune to the "faction propaganda" which is stuck on other books.

**Ashiraya**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Cain is not a good example or accurate* fluff.

*relatively accurate.

Actually, the Cain books are probably the least biased (in fluff) books in the Black Library. Considering they're (in fluff) all banned by the Inquisition and definitely do not portray Cain in the light that the Imperium would want.

So they're one of the few series which are immune to the "faction propaganda" which is stuck on other books.

On the other hand, they are written by Cain himself, and you have no gaurantee whatsoever saying that he himself was not biased when he wrote about his own deeds!

Maybe that CSM he saw through his binoculars one battle turned into an epic duel when it came to writing the book?

**Lord Tarkin**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

And Cain is a coward who has to live up to a hero's reputation in order to keep on being a coward. Never underestimate how much cowards want to survive and what they can (and will) do to ensure they do

Also a berserker just keeps swinging, they don't feint, or use any tricks. Cain doesn't have to block the big axe, just get out of its way which is, with his battle-hardened and cowardice-enhanced reflexes, possible.

**Kain**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
*Snip*.

Please, wipe yourself off when you're done with that.

Cain is implied to have some sort of favor backing him.

Hence why he can kill warbosses (who pulp most marines, traitor or loyal in one on one), Hive Tyrants (who eat marines, traitor or loyal, for breakfast), Genestealer Broodlords (in Word Bearers, regular genestealers' claws went through Terminator armor like nothing and they could pulo a marine's head or swat off his hands in an eyeblink; a Broodlord is far worse news), A Daemon Princess of Slaanesh (admittedly he had Jurgen) and such.

A Berserker doesn't even really rate next to the nastiest things he's fought and beaten.

**Lord Tarkin**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
It is really quite hilarious. There's the absolute joke where a Commisar with a chainsword successfully duels with a chain axe wielding Khornate Beserker. Go figure.

To be fair, Cain (who I assume is who you're referring to) is described as a master swordsman who practices his drills for hours every day.

Also, in that duel isn't the chainaxe wielding berserker actually killed by Jurgen with a meltagun? Cain fights him to a tie and then gets out the way so Jurgen can melt the enemy.

Later Cain does manage to kill a wounded CSM by sticking his chainsword into exposed piping in a gap in the armour.

Berzerkers are arguably the best close combat fighters in the galaxy. They also have three times the adrenaline a normal marine possesses with enhanced strength (yes, genetically enhanced and then enhanced by the butchers nails) and can fight through injuries that would incapacitate even the toughest warriors. And Berzerkers train several hours a day just like Cain.

Whether a close combat genious or not Cain would not and shouldn't have lasted even a couple seconds with that Berzerker. Hes human. Even a normal run-of-the-mill Chaos Marine could have assailed Cain. They train hours a day, they're superhuman and 5 times the intelligence of Cain. Realistically it is absurd he lasted with that berzerker. Cain can most likely easily dispatch a dozen humans in CC but couldn't match not even a single superhuman warp enhanced Chaos Marine.

And Cain is a coward who has to live up to a hero's reputation in order to keep on being a coward. Never underestimate how much cowards want to survive and what they can (and will) do to ensure they do

Also a berserker just keeps swinging, they don't feint, or use any tricks. Cain doesn't have to block the big axe, just get out of its way which is, with his battle-hardened and cowardice-enhanced reflexes, possible.

I think I understand what you are saying but let me put this in perspective for you. A normal Chaos Marine is much faster and stronger than a human, with the backpack feeding electrically motivated fibre bundles into their already superhuman body. With the butchers nails, as i explained makes a berzerker even faster and stronger than that. And again, berzerkers are some of the best fighters in the galaxy. In a literal sense, there was no way he could have dodged those swings. He would have been cleaved in half like the coward he was.

**Kain**

Ashiraya wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Cain is not a good example or accurate* fluff.

*relatively accurate.

Actually, the Cain books are probably the least biased (in fluff) books in the Black Library. Considering they're (in fluff) all banned by the Inquisition and definitely do not portray Cain in the light that the Imperium would want.

So they're one of the few series which are immune to the "faction propaganda" which is stuck on other books.

On the other hand, they are written by Cain himself, and you have no gaurantee whatsoever saying that he himself was not biased when he wrote about his own deeds!

Maybe that CSM he saw through his binoculars one battle turned into an epic duel when it came to writing the book?

Cain is incredibly self loathing.

He always undersells everything he does, and his memoirs were meant to be a dispelling of all the myths that surrounded him.

Amberly repeatedly notes that Cain never gives himself enough credit.

**herpguy**

Ashiraya wrote:
The CSM in Space Marine were worfed.

The rest of the game was good.

I have to agree. Besides the CSM part the game was pretty plausible because it wasn't like you were wading through thousands of Orks in an open field, you were only fighting a few at a time in more or less confined spaces.

But anyways even the World Eaters CSM aren't lunatics. Kharn, who is thought by many as being the most stereotypical of them is described in the books as being a very calm and calculating tactician when he needs to be.
Huron also definitely has the same goal as any other CSM. He even mentored Honsou for a short while.