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This was very much compensated for by the element of surprise.

Istvaan leaps to mind.

Its worth noting that due to the nature of TIME in the warp, some chaos marines feel like the heresy was very recent, where some remember it as lifetimes ago.
The ranks of chaos are constantly replenished from renegades and fallen imperials, just because you tack on "Chaos" does not make those marines true Veterans of the Long War.

For example, Abbadon and his Terminator Retinue are probably one of the most elite fighting units in the universe, bar none, but the likelyhood of them running into Calgar and his retinue of Honor Guard is slim to none for example.

The FFG books for Black Crusade did a great job of explaining this, as you can become FAR more powerful in Black Crusade than you could as a loyalist, but your baseline starting level is somewhat less.

Armor gets damaged and not repaired properly, things get stolen and lost, betrayals ect make it hard for them to always measure up. The Dark Mechanicus does not have contracts like loyalists do with the Ad Mech to repair their gear, they do it in return for services rendered ect ect.

 Vash108 wrote:
CSM lost even more marine due to them Having to weed out the loyalist among them. EX: Gavriel Loken and the Luna Wolves. I think about half of the traitor legions had to do this as well. Just look at the dropsite massacre.

The dropsite massacre was actually just betrayal, it had nothing to do with rooting out the Emperor faithfuls. This was Isstvan III, where Horus and his fellow traitor primarchs had gathered those amongst the traitor legions that wouldnt leave the emperor and dropped them down below only to be virus bombed. This was really the only instance of this kind of action and the rooting of loyalists was not needed anytime afterwards.

Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

Well, it depends. Are you talking tabletop or fluff? Or both?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

Well, it depends. Are you talking tabletop or fluff? Or both?

Oh tabletop of course. Was this a discussion on why they seem weak in the fluff? If so, because loyalists are GW's poster children and as such all fluff is required to show them in a glorious light.

Except when someone else needs to be shown in a positive light

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

Well, it depends. Are you talking tabletop or fluff? Or both?

Oh tabletop of course. Was this a discussion on why they seem weak in the fluff? If so, because loyalists are GW's poster children and as such all fluff is required to show them in a glorious light.

This is a uh... this is the fluff discussion sub-forum.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

Well, it depends. Are you talking tabletop or fluff? Or both?

Oh tabletop of course. Was this a discussion on why they seem weak in the fluff? If so, because loyalists are GW's poster children and as such all fluff is required to show them in a glorious light.

Well, I actually love Chaos Marine tabletop. They're quite fun to play and I find them to be an easy army to play. I do feel they have cool toys of their own.

But yes, this was a fluffy question and you're right. They are the poster boys hence a regular tactical marine is a god in his own right because of it. Plot armour takes huge effect

Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

Apparently so but what are Scions?

Stormtroopers

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Why do they seem weak? Because Space Marines get shiny new toys like Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers while CSM just get a vehicle that wants to be a real MC.

Alrighty then. What's your point?

That is why they seem weak. Because unlike their loyal brethren they don't get shiny new toys to make them better.

Well, it depends. Are you talking tabletop or fluff? Or both?

Oh tabletop of course. Was this a discussion on why they seem weak in the fluff? If so, because loyalists are GW's poster children and as such all fluff is required to show them in a glorious light.

This is a uh... this is the fluff discussion sub-forum.

Yeah, I know. I was trying to interject some humour into things.

 Inkubas wrote:
While I do see plot armor in books and the UM movie overall, I'd argue that its far from one side and more of a grim dark stalemate. There are amazing loyalist wins and crushing defeats. Heck, I recently read a book where AL destroyed an entire chapter with no losses. As per one on one combat and skill, I'd think of it as special ops vs mercenaries. It can go both ways but chances are special ops wins more often. My .02 anyway

Done it twice! Emperor's Swords and Crimson Consuls!

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
CSM lost even more marine due to them Having to weed out the loyalist among them. EX: Gavriel Loken and the Luna Wolves. I think about half of the traitor legions had to do this as well. Just look at the dropsite massacre.

The dropsite massacre was actually just betrayal, it had nothing to do with rooting out the Emperor faithfuls. This was Isstvan III, where Horus and his fellow traitor primarchs had gathered those amongst the traitor legions that wouldnt leave the emperor and dropped them down below only to be virus bombed. This was really the only instance of this kind of action and the rooting of loyalists was not needed anytime afterwards.

Oops that's what I meant.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
While I do see plot armor in books and the UM movie overall, I'd argue that its far from one side and more of a grim dark stalemate. There are amazing loyalist wins and crushing defeats. Heck, I recently read a book where AL destroyed an entire chapter with no losses. As per one on one combat and skill, I'd think of it as special ops vs mercenaries. It can go both ways but chances are special ops wins more often. My .02 anyway

Done it twice! Emperor's Swords and Crimson Consuls!

Cheers to you and yours, fellow ruinous-brother!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
CSM lost even more marine due to them Having to weed out the loyalist among them. EX: Gavriel Loken and the Luna Wolves. I think about half of the traitor legions had to do this as well. Just look at the dropsite massacre.

The dropsite massacre was actually just betrayal, it had nothing to do with rooting out the Emperor faithfuls. This was Isstvan III, where Horus and his fellow traitor primarchs had gathered those amongst the traitor legions that wouldnt leave the emperor and dropped them down below only to be virus bombed. This was really the only instance of this kind of action and the rooting of loyalists was not needed anytime afterwards.

Oops that's what I meant.

I'm sure you did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Stormtroopers

Oh. Hey, I know earlier in this thread I seemed like a rude ***hole but just know that I didn't mean any insult, I'm just a really passionate 40k player and collector. So my bad

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

Yes but Scions codex likes Scions to look good.
Without plot armour Scions lose every time vs. CSMs.

I disagree, but I seem to be one of the few that likes to see humans not getting their asses handed to themselves at all times.

The Scions also lose a lot vs Tau in their own codex, makes the victories vs Chaos more legit, imo.

And besides, one of the many advantages of CSM is PA, which a hellgun beam goes punches through with little issue, and the gear of the Scions is pretty advanced, too.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

Yes but Scions codex likes Scions to look good.
Without plot armour Scions lose every time vs. CSMs.

Why? Most Scion weapons can go through CSM armor while Carapace protects against Boltgun rounds. The Hotshot Volleygun alone makes minecmeat out of MEQ thanks to being an AP 3 bolter. I am not saying they are gods of war when fighting Chaos but it's not like CSM will roll over them. It'd be a tough fight for both sides.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

Yes but Scions codex likes Scions to look good.
Without plot armour Scions lose every time vs. CSMs.

Why? Most Scion weapons can go through CSM armor while Carapace protects against Boltgun rounds. The Hotshot Volleygun alone makes minecmeat out of MEQ thanks to being an AP 3 bolter. I am not saying they are gods of war when fighting Chaos but it's not like CSM will roll over them. It'd be a tough fight for both sides.

Agreed, then there's the setting for that fight, which was a bunch of scions swoop by, pop out of transports and kill everything in sight.
Which is, y'know, exactly their modus operandi.
They're a fast attacking assassination army, and they fought exactly to their strengths.
It's not really that criminal for assuming that they'd win.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, once again, it depends, in the Scion codex there's at least one instance where the Scions save the bacon of a bunch of SM, agaisnt CSM, no less.

Yes but Scions codex likes Scions to look good.
Without plot armour Scions lose every time vs. CSMs.

Why? Most Scion weapons can go through CSM armor while Carapace protects against Boltgun rounds. The Hotshot Volleygun alone makes minecmeat out of MEQ thanks to being an AP 3 bolter. I am not saying they are gods of war when fighting Chaos but it's not like CSM will roll over them. It'd be a tough fight for both sides.

That's game mechanics, mind you.

Saying 's4' is proof for volleyguns being as strong as bolters is like saying 'ws4' is proof of Ork Boyz being as skilled in melee as Space Marine Honour Guard.

I disagree, but I seem to be one of the few that likes to see humans not getting their asses handed to themselves at all times. The Scions also lose a lot vs Tau in their own codex, makes the victories vs Chaos more legit, imo.

To the latter sentence: Aaaaaaaa cherrypicking!

To the former sentence: It's grimdark. Can't have humans not getting their asses handed to them in grimdark.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tyranid codex outright states that the Hive Fleets we've seen in the Galaxy this far are vanguard fleets and there are *confirmed* new fleets (can't remember their names) that have entered the galaxy and started attacking planets.

and again, it's all speculative how big or strong these new fleet are. A Vanguard might be 1/3 of the total force or it could be 1/100 but the only consistent thing with 40k is that GW has no sense for numbers or scale.

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tyranid codex outright states that the Hive Fleets we've seen in the Galaxy this far are vanguard fleets and there are *confirmed* new fleets (can't remember their names) that have entered the galaxy and started attacking planets.

and again, it's all speculative how big or strong these new fleet are. A Vanguard might be 1/3 of the total force or it could be 1/100 but the only consistent thing with 40k is that GW has no sense for numbers or scale.

Either way, the universe is doomed. As of now hundreds of billions of these creature have already been encountered and 1/3 of the vanguard still spells death. 1/100 means the same thing only it will be quicker. Keep in mind every planet these bugz swallow up they spawn a couple billion more.

I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

While true they are still much older. No matter how you slice it, a 10,000 year old veteran who has lived and warred in hell itself should be more than capable of handling a 200 year old youngster.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

While true they are still much older. No matter how you slice it, a 10,000 year old veteran who has lived and warred in hell itself should be more than capable of handling a 200 year old youngster.

I agree to a degree, but I think its like the skill curve that we see when it comes to anything, you know how to truly master something they say it takes 10,000 hours, but the cruve from 0-1000 is enormous, and then it sorta tapers off and rises really really slowly after you hit the 1000 hours mark?

I reckon we think that because we are so short lived, but common sense tells me the curve would taper out rapidly. I know for a fact I am far better a solider now at 34 than I was at 18 because I am calm and collected in almost any situation, I ddint keep a count, but on my tour of Kajaki every single patrol was an advance to contact, I was there for 5 months and I think we were engaged on every patrol except for about 3, so say I was in over 90 firefights, I felt more of a difference in my state of mind and my capability between 0-10 than I compared to the negligible, if any, difference between my knowledge and my demeanor during times 85-90.

So, I agree and I disagree at the same time. To be sure veterancy counts for absolutely gak loads and I would take 10 grizzled veterans aged 30-35 over 20 18-20 year olds any day of the week.. but how much more can you learn about war when you exist just to fight? Space Marines dont get shore leave.. I reckon 200 years will be about the crescendo of your talents personally, but its pure speculation obviously.

And we are really going into nerd-overdrive at this point and really over thinking things.

I stand by the selfishness thing as well. Chaos spend more time killing each other and plotting than they do anything else, I reckon Id have my money of the Loyalists 9 times out of 10.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

While true they are still much older. No matter how you slice it, a 10,000 year old veteran who has lived and warred in hell itself should be more than capable of handling a 200 year old youngster.

Yup, and a 200 year old youngster is in the form of a captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

While true they are still much older. No matter how you slice it, a 10,000 year old veteran who has lived and warred in hell itself should be more than capable of handling a 200 year old youngster.

I agree to a degree, but I think its like the skill curve that we see when it comes to anything, you know how to truly master something they say it takes 10,000 hours, but the cruve from 0-1000 is enormous, and then it sorta tapers off and rises really really slowly after you hit the 1000 hours mark?

I reckon we think that because we are so short lived, but common sense tells me the curve would taper out rapidly. I know for a fact I am far better a solider now at 34 than I was at 18 because I am calm and collected in almost any situation, I ddint keep a count, but on my tour of Kajaki every single patrol was an advance to contact, I was there for 5 months and I think we were engaged on every patrol except for about 3, so say I was in over 90 firefights, I felt more of a difference in my state of mind and my capability between 0-10 than I compared to the negligible, if any, difference between my knowledge and my demeanor during times 85-90.

So, I agree and I disagree at the same time. To be sure veterancy counts for absolutely gak loads and I would take 10 grizzled veterans aged 30-35 over 20 18-20 year olds any day of the week.. but how much more can you learn about war when you exist just to fight? Space Marines dont get shore leave.. I reckon 200 years will be about the crescendo of your talents personally, but its pure speculation obviously.

And we are really going into nerd-overdrive at this point and really over thinking things.

I stand by the selfishness thing as well. Chaos spend more time killing each other and plotting than they do anything else, I reckon Id have my money of the Loyalists 9 times out of 10.

Look, CSM's are still superhuman and they know when best to throw their uttmost loyalty to their champions. They only war against eachother in the eye of terror because they have nothing better to do and they all need gene-seed and as sad as it is....it is experience nonetheless. Soo, lets not say bad guys suck because they're bad, ok? Because they are SM's at heart, litterally.

I didn't say that they are bad because they are bad, that would be foolish and infantile.

Read the post.

Seeing as you clearly cant be bothered, allow me to sum up succinctly for you.

There are plenty of reasons why professional and dedicated soldiers who are better equipped and supplied and train more relentlessly and work with practiced teamwork and efficiency can win a fight against drug using, mentally unbalanced foes who don't spend half as much time fighting because they don't flock to the defense of others but instead spend their days plotting against each other and squabbling.