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They army has a veritable cornucopia of ignore cover abilities, which seems specifically designed to deal with annoying 2+ rerollable cover saves.

With orders, Wyverns, etc.. etc.. I mean it really denies you that cover save.

Hopefully they can shift the meta.

Hollismason wrote:
They army has a veritable cornucopia of ignore cover abilities, which seems specifically designed to deal with annoying 2+ rerollable cover saves.

With orders, Wyverns, etc.. etc.. I mean it really denies you that cover save.

But str 4 ap 6 means more than no cover saves.

I'd rather take my chances with str 9 and 10 pie plates.

Wait, blobs move faster than MSU? Are we talking platoon MSU or mechanized? Because I see little reason to run MSU without transports, which gives them worlds of mobility ahead of blobs. Least of all wasting an order on moving.

Blobs are not going to be reliable in capturing an enemy's backfield objectives, but are going to be very good at capturing midfield.

An aegis line placed midfield will make them very difficult to dislodge. Once midfield a blob + conscripts can lay down an obscene # of shots out to 24" with LD9 commissar bubble and FRFSRF.

MC can tarpit most blobs. Allied white scars or Celistine for hit and run make that a terrible idea. Charging a mid field blob that has hit and run with a MC will likely result in the blob getting 3D6" of free movement forward moving the blob from midfield to 2" from the enemy deployment zone and the blob charging backfield objective holders.

With 36 point sniper SWS and 12" of PCS orders range it's also easy to run blob and MSU at the same time. The extra range on the PCS means it can stay in your deployment zone and issue FRFSRF to blobs or conscripts midfield.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Wait, blobs move faster than MSU? Are we talking platoon MSU or mechanized? Because I see little reason to run MSU without transports, which gives them worlds of mobility ahead of blobs. Least of all wasting an order on moving.

In terms of infantry, yes, as you can order the whole lot to shoot+run or a 3d6-pick-the-highest Run. Of course transports change this, but then you're factoring in a lot of extra cost and I was talking specifically about infantry.

Maybe it's just me, but running 3 10man groups of guardsman up the board footslog style seems like a terrible idea all around. I wouldn't consider running MSU guard without vets or swarms of platoon guard in chimera.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but running 3 10man groups of guardsman up the board footslog style seems like a terrible idea all around. I wouldn't consider running MSU guard without vets or swarms of platoon guard in chimera.

Which is why you use blobs to move up. MSU works better as a defensive tool, as each enemy attack can kill a maximum of 10 guys. Of course running them across the board will get them killed, but MSU are easier to hide and harder to completely eradicate if you put your mind to keeping them alive. Split up, block units with others, use them as speedbumps, and you can get a fair bit of army-wide survivability at the expense of firepower.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Its dialect, you cretin.

Come on, mate, its not necessary, is it?

What about deployment options. Any methods for deploying blobs up field or did that die with the last dex?

Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.

So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.

So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?

Im digging the auger on a hellhound and deep striking a full platoon. 10 special weapons baby!

Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Biophysical wrote:I don't mean to say MSU is flat out bad. I just think blobs bring a lot of options to the table that MSU don't.

How dare you have a nuanced opinion!

Seriously, though, I hope the arguments for blobs are stronger than MSU. It would be nice to be able to run blobs again without feeling silly.

Still, it needs an adversary, so I digress...

Biophysical wrote: Removing them is a 100% firepower efficiency for a squad. You can order two blobs per turn with a single CCS, getting you ~six squad's worth of weapons ignoring cover instead of two. Throw in Divination and blobs seriously outshoot MSU per point. Similarly, you say the shoot+run order is one of your favorites. Would you rather be able to advance (or withdraw) 20-30 guys or 10?

Yes, the percentage is high, but we're still going from 1 to 2 in the base case. That's still just an increase of 1. Plus there's still the fire focus and overkill. I'd rather have three lascannons pointing at three different venoms than having all 3 point at a single one, even if it gives one or two more of them tank hunters. The bigger the blob gets, the more efficiency of orders, but the greater chance of overkill. Likewise, pooling all 30 dudes can give all of them a 4++, but it also makes it so that your opponent only needs to focus on one unit instead of splitting fire. If the other 20 dudes didn't even get shot at in the first place, then they have effectively a 1++.

I suppose we could really frame it like this. MSU is better in every way, but if blobs can get enough extra killing power (or some other aggregate benefit), then it might be worth it to take all those disadvantages if at least you kill stuff better. The question is if enough of a case can really be made. Just having the chance of accepting orders on more guys doesn't quite cut it for me. Not if it's just getting a few extra tank hunters shots or making it so infantry that aren't going to make it anywhere without being killed get there slightly faster. There needs to be a bigger narrative here.

Biophysical wrote: Just as a mathematical comparison, look at this blob:
3 squads, 3 bolters, 3 plasma guns, 3 meltabombs, vox, plasma priest: 258

vs these guys in MSU format
4 squads, 4 bolters, 4 plasma guns: 264

So, what's the purpose of this?

I mean, I get the idea of hiding a bunch of expensive-yet-scoring lascannons somewhere and pretending that they're an HS slot. But what you're setting up here is either one of two things. Either it's a defensive weapon (hide somewhere and then spring out of the bushes and shoot plasma), but if that's the case, why not give them lascannons, and then we're back to where we started. The other side of this is that you actually want to move these guys somewhere. Somewhere where you're going to be close enough to double-tap plasma and maybe get into close combat.

If you're wanting to get somewhere then the most important factor is durability. You have to actually survive long enough to get there. The blob doesn't have to deal with morale (but that's also alleviatable through things outside of this vacuum, like a nearby regimental standard - plus, most guard squads tend to get butchered to a man (or nearly that) before they break and run), but the blob does have to deal with 9 fewer models.

Because what happens when you put this up against tau? In this case, the blob hurts, rather than helps, because now markerlights only need to attach to a single squad (among overkill problems, etc.), and you have fewer dudes. In both cases, you're talking about missileside or pulse weapons blowing them clean off the board in approximately one turn of shooting. What happens when you're up against bolter banner DA? Against wave serpent spam Eldar? Against mass, mass BS4 Ap5 dark eldar splinternado?

Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?

With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting

The primary issue your running into with blobs is time.
you have about 2.25-2.5 hours to complete a game, meaning after you roll all your traits/psychic powers/sides/mission/etc. plus you and your opponets initial deployment. you have about 3x 20-25 minute turns. which means in a tournament setting you have to be able to seize said objectives by at least turn 3

Obviously if you play non competitive its a non factor, but running blobs in a tournament can be....frustrating

vs. vets with maxed doctrines you get 2 vet squads with camo/carapace/lascannon/3x plasma for 300 points on the nose.
for "roughly" the same we can get 3 inf squads 3xplasma/3x lascannon/3x power axes (not counting your aditional scoring unit PCS for about 38 points)

you can only divinate bot one unit, you can only run 3 priests, orders can be split equally, but I think I would take the Inf Blob based off of Wave Serpents and MC alone. priests with power axes or Hammerhand Inq make blob very killy in HtoH

but again your usually only hitting turn 4 at the max.

Red Corsair wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Im still stinking about Scions... what I dislike is fact I had to make them allies to use their own codex.

So... maybe they can still work in their Elite AM version... maybe stuck them with (lord) commisar to Vendetta and bring their plasma love to the target? Or drive taurox/ chimera with augur fast forward and deep strike them there? Or Hellhound?

Im digging the auger on a hellhound and deep striking a full platoon. 10 special weapons baby!

I think this could end up being a very good option. You only have to worry about 1 reserve roll, removing the weakness of coming in piecemeal that multiple ST squads had before, and only fill one Elite slot, meaning you've got space to take Bullgryns or Ratlings.

Ailaros wrote:
Because what happens when you put this up against tau? In this case, the blob hurts, rather than helps, because now markerlights only need to attach to a single squad (among overkill problems, etc.), and you have fewer dudes. In both cases, you're talking about missileside or pulse weapons blowing them clean off the board in approximately one turn of shooting. What happens when you're up against bolter banner DA? Against wave serpent spam Eldar? Against mass, mass BS4 Ap5 dark eldar splinternado?

True, blobs do struggle as much if not more than MSU against those type of fairly static, mass-small-arms lists, but at that point, you can just make the call not to blob and run MSU, depending on the opponent. That's the real power of Combined squads, that fact that you can tailor to your opponent before the game begins, depending on what you're up against, what the table looks like, how confident you feel with attack/defence and a bunch of other variables.

There are certainly situations that favour blobs, like one-squad buffs such as Orders, Psychic powers or ally tricks. There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:I don't mean to say MSU is flat out bad. I just think blobs bring a lot of options to the table that MSU don't.

Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?

Numbers and expendability. 60 Guardsmen in a pair of 30 blobs, 6 melta bombs, and 100 conscripts=630 points. We also have to buy 2 PCS which gives us 2 more sets of orders, and may as well buy 4 sniper rifle SWS while we are at it (128 for the 4 SWS squads).

There's probably a 25 point commissar in there somewhere that can't detach from a conscript squad. The priests can always jump ship to a fresh unit after too many casualties.

Move the aegis up to midfield, toss out lots of FRFSRF, and watch an opponent struggle to kill that many guardsmen with shooting. Even a good shooting army will struggle to kill 160 guardsmen and have enough dakka left to sweep the 6 MSU PCS and SWS holding your backfield. CC units would risk getting swarmed by priest buffed guardsmen.

There is also the option to attach an inquisitor with scout to outflank 50 conscripts and a priest. They don't need to sweep clean the enemy deployment zone, just sweep troops off or survive to contest an objective.

It's not the end all be all I autowin against everyone list, but it is a competitive all comers list

RegulusBlack wrote:With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting

But congratulations, you just spent 350 points on a couple of lascannons. MSU would handle this much better, as you'd get a lot more lascannons, and a lot more bodies. More durable and with more killing power, in this case.

And stationary blobs don't take very long because you basically never move them. Running up-field blobs are certainly more tricky, but it goes a lot faster once your opponent all but tables your army turn 3. It doesnt' take very much time to move dead guardsmen.

Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.

But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.

schadenfreude wrote:Numbers and expendability.

Both of which MSU does better.

Is there even any point in Commissars anymore though, now that Priests give fearless for the same price? It seems a bit silly.

The priest even comes with massive unit CC buffs, and can become AP2, whereas the Commissar at best is taking a power axe which puts him at I1 and gives him S4, but the Priest can beat that still by doubling his strength to 6.

The Priest is harder to kill even - at best the Commissar has a camo cloak or carapace, the Priest always gets a 4+ invulnerable. What am I missing?

Commissars can take power fists now, which means they get S6 Ap2 without having to pass a leadership test first. They also give you the ability to go to ground and give you some ability to fail morale tests if you'd ever want to do that, for some reason.

I do agree, though, priests are usually going to be better.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Is there even any point in Commissars anymore though, now that Priests give fearless for the same price? It seems a bit silly.

The priest even comes with massive unit CC buffs, and can become AP2, whereas the Commissar at best is taking a power axe which puts him at I1 and gives him S4, but the Priest can beat that still by doubling his strength to 6.

The Priest is harder to kill even - at best the Commissar has a camo cloak or carapace, the Priest always gets a 4+ invulnerable. What am I missing?

Commisar is more classy!

And, I use Get to the Ground a lot, which fearless denies, so in some units, I will go for commisar. For CC, yeah, Priest, no question, but I dont plan to CC, because his Ld7 will fail me every time (and humans are still squishy)...and dont talk to me about statistic! And BS4 isnt half bad...well, depends on the unit, I guess...and my obsession with commisars...

What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.

 Ailaros wrote:

RegulusBlack wrote:With Inq. and PP Divination bots (about 350 pts wise) your going to hit a 4++ save for blob (about 8-9 chances of rolling a 4)
your Lascannon blobs with priest, PP coupled with orders will make short work of most things shooting

But congratulations, you just spent 350 points on a couple of lascannons. MSU would handle this much better, as you'd get a lot more lascannons, and a lot more bodies. More durable and with more killing power, in this case.

And stationary blobs don't take very long because you basically never move them. Running up-field blobs are certainly more tricky, but it goes a lot faster once your opponent all but tables your army turn 3. It doesnt' take very much time to move dead guardsmen.

Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.

But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.

schadenfreude wrote:Numbers and expendability.

Both of which MSU does better.

Conscripts is the new black.

Oh, also, commissars have a higher Ld, so they make stuff pass orders better.

Really, it seems that it's commissars for stuff hanging back (orders, hiding in cover), and priests for charging forward (fearless, better in CC, extra special weapon).

 Ailaros wrote:

Paradigm wrote:There are situations that favour MSU, such as when no amount of buffs will allow you to outshoot/outfight your opponent and the emphasis is on survivability. But the fact you don't have to commit yourself to one or the other means that you have the ability to make an informed decision pre-game and plan accordingly.

But now you've wasted hundreds of points on priest, commissars, and psykers that aren't fulfilling the role that you took them in the first place for.

I think 'hundreds of points' is something of an overstatement, maybe 200-odd at most. Any more than that in a 1500 list and I'd say you're probably spending too much on support units anyway.

Psykers are easy to find a use for, as there will always be something to benefit from Prescience, either tanks, arty or Vets. Commissars with the 6" bubble can still feasibly cover 2-3 units if you need them too. Priests, I admit, are a bit more of a dead weight, but if you've also got some conscripts that's a good place for them.

Ailaros, what are MSU, small units that are flooding the field, they are beneficial based on the fact of target de-saturation, I can only kill 5 units a turn, MSU has 20 units so I should survive till turn 4.
However they also suffer from target desaturation based on available Force Multipliers are also limited. So they trade a little survivability, but are offensively limited as well.

By going Blobs (3x, 4x or even 5x Squads) you alleviate the force multiplier issue for target redundancy.

I think that if they are going to blow your blob off the board, they are going to blow your MSU units off just as easy, and while it might take more time you may not have the killing power to affect the eventual outcome if you go MSU.

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

In regards to the MSU vs Blob argument going on, if you are going MSU utilize Chimeras for mobility and 12 armor shields, your guys do not even need to be mounted inside of them but could use it as a mobile form of fire support and cover. Personally I still like the idea of Veterans in Chimeras for MSU but can see the benefit of utilizing standard platoons as well. Blob IG tactics work great for defensive and mid field objectives but struggle to reach your opponents backfield, that is where you ally in a formation of Scion (they are troops in it) or put a few squads of Veterans or if you want to keep it cheap, Special Weapon Squads in a Flyer and have them focus on backfield objectives.

You can't think of any time when you might want a squad of guardsmen to break and run? Like maybe when a super awesome cc unit is bearing down on you and you need a turn to shoot them?

 Crimson wrote:
What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.

Because sabres

 Crimson wrote:
What is the point of having regular infantry squads anyway (apart the fluff), as veterans cost only ten points more now? Or if you want platoon commands, then at least there is no point having more than the minimum two squads per PCS, as veteran squads are just better infantry squads at bargain price.

1) You can get squads bigger than 10 men.
2) You can unlock other platoon elements, the most useful of which are Conscripts and Sabres.
3) In larger games, your 6 Troops slots can actually fill up with Vets. Platoons allow you to get more firepower/bodies per FOC slot.