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What about middle-sized infantry squad blobs? We have talked about the merits of MSU versus "true" blobs, but could there be a point to having 20 or 30 guardsmen in a unit, finding a "sweet spot" between unit cost, efficiency with orders and buffs, and frailty? Also, what about using mid-size blobs in lots of different platoons in order to maximize number of PCSs?

 Ailaros wrote:

Why should we expect guardsmen to make it up to mid-field, much less to the other side, or to survive to the end of the game? How do blobs solve this problem?

Blobs don't solve this problem, but neither does MSU. The rest of the army solves this problem. These troops are there to score and defend the midfield objectives. The rest of your army has to help them by cutting the worst bits out of the enemy army fast enough to keep enough of your units alive. But that's the real trick with any army, right? Personally, I want to try out armored sentinels. They are tough and punchy for their points. Tough, cheap, mobile lascannons go a long way toward solving a lot of problems. Against the aforementioned Tau, they'll tear up broadside suits or help provide mobile cover for advancing infantry.

RULE #1.

Seriously.

Anyone give any thought to Straken for an assault-oriented guard list? His Counter-attack and Furious Charge bubble may have some potential. Coupled with rad + psychotroke inquisitors, power axes, meltabombs, and priests... you can have two blobs of doom.

Aaaand then I re-read furious charge. NEVERMIND.

Also we need to take into account Allies and Formations if we want to really get in depth into this, for Allies one of the best I have seen is taking Azrael from the Dark Angels and tossing him into a squad of x50 Guardsmen or Conscripts. Run them up the table and you have a MASSIVE tarpit to deal with those pesky Wraith Knights, FMC, ect.

Things I've noticed nobody has said.

1. Special weapon squads can take 3 demo charge and the ignore cover order...
2. 3 divination psychers can guide 3 manticores...
3. Storm troopers lost infiltrate/scout!!!!


Overall, the PBS nerf is the saddest to me...

Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....

Which gets me excited for when they FAQ/update the ABG list to reflect the new point values and such.

Who doesn't want an even cheaper pair of Beast Hunter-quishers as your warlord? And even cheaper troop tanks?

 Blacksails wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....

Which gets me excited for when they FAQ/update the ABG list to reflect the new point values and such.

Who doesn't want an even cheaper pair of Beast Hunter-quishers as your warlord? And even cheaper troop tanks?

IKR? I am so excited to see what they do!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....

Isn't it 6"? I rarely used commissar tanks myself.

When they get around to updating ABG, I am going to have a hard time deciding who to ally to what. MT, AM and ABG. Choices, choices...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also people seem to forget that the ABG commissar tank still grants ld 10 for orders in a 12" bubble....

Which gets me excited for when they FAQ/update the ABG list to reflect the new point values and such.

Who doesn't want an even cheaper pair of Beast Hunter-quishers as your warlord? And even cheaper troop tanks?

IKR? I am so excited to see what they do!

Cause what's better than Pask/Tank commanders with tank orders?

The same thing with beast hunter shells, co-axial weapons, extra HP, and troop tanks.

Still a shame about the Hydra. Really the Vendetta will remain the top contender in the FA slot for being the only viable source of anti-tank native to the book.

The book's fluff is kind of sad...nothing about my beloved Mordians except a one line blurb under a picture.

I think this codex, overall, is a sidegrade at best. Whatever combinations exist that make it competitive still don't make me any happier about all the cut units/characters and strange nerfs/absence of buffs on units that need it.

I'm not sure we need a vendetta for anti tank anymore.

A bs4 commissar can man a quad gun or icarus lascannon.

Armored sentinels are a decent lc platform that start on the board and can get an easy 4+ save..

Platoon LC can be vicious. 140 for 2 or 210 for 3. Could also attach the unit to a quad/ici lc. The ability to combine prescience and ignore cover/tank hunters make them really solid. Plus they are a scoring unit. They are a bit more expensive than other anti tank options, but they are a 20 to 30 wound thick scoring unit.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm not sure we need a vendetta for anti tank anymore.

You're right.

Its needed for anti-air.

The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.

Well, you don't know how they're going to fix it. It's not a guarantee that the forgeworld version will get a points cost. There's not even a guarantee that the commissar tank will still get a leadership bubble.

Biophysical wrote:Blobs don't solve this problem, but neither does MSU. The rest of the army solves this problem.

Blobs are, at best, merely equal to MSU here. But even that's not true, because MSU are still more survivable because you get more stuff due to lower costs.

Not that MSU is the magic answer to all its own problems. Foot guard is really weak right now, but it seems that blobs are just a weaker form of an already weak army style.

schadenfreude wrote:Conscripts is the new black.

As an IC bus?

I don't know... I feel like sniping barrage weapons and precision shots would still grind you down.

Maybe. If only the conscripts themselves weren't so useless. I guess you could do this with naked blobs... but still...

I guess you could take 100 guardsmen (50 guardsmen, 50 conscripts), and have it all run forward and then retire the ICs as needed to the rearward squad. Displacement would be a nightmare, and it would basically be guaranteed extra-casualties (which would offset the durability of bringing that many in the first place). Plus, are the characters themselves going to be doing enough damage? And they're still not hidden...

Blacksails wrote:The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.

I'd also note that a LC/MM vanquisher is basically the same price as a vendetta. In a 1 on 1, I'm not certain the vendetta would win, and against ground targets, the vanquisher is a little better (not quite as many hits, but better hits when it does).

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, you don't know how they're going to fix it. It's not a guarantee that the forgeworld version will get a points cost. There's not even a guarantee that the commissar tank will still get a leadership bubble.

No, but a man can dream.

 Blacksails wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm not sure we need a vendetta for anti tank anymore.

You're right.

Its needed for anti-air.

The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.

The second option is actually viable nowadays, since Mech Vets probably aren't "the thing" anymore. The Heldrake was the biggest flying threat to that army since you'd have situations where it could Vector Strike a Chimera open, then flame the dudes inside.

If you're running nothing but Russes and a foot-star, you can pretty much ignore the things. The CSM player is stuck either killing a couple of Joes or trying to glance AV13 with the Vector Strikes, and the Baleflamer is no more threatening to the unit than a regular flamer.

To be fair, helldrakes were never all that threatening to a guard player.

I hope that at least the beast hunter stays .... IG kind of needs something like that against some MC. Depending on the build of guard... On another note I'm sad they did not get give anything of ours interceptor.

You did see what happened to the price of an executioner, did you not?

And the part where you can take whole platoons of plasmacide stormies?

Yeah, plus its appealing just doubling down and spending those 340pts on more russes instead of a pair of 'Dettas.

That, and personally, Vendettas have always felt like an all or nothing thing. I either want to go balls out on an Elysian Valk spam list, or not run them at all. I don't want to buy a new case just to haul a few around.

If you're going to mostly ignore air a pair of astropaths and an icarus might be adequate.

-2 to reserves will really put a hurt on triple helldrake/cron air.

A single icarus doesn't look like much. I wouldn't even intercept with it. The next turn though prescience + bring it down=deadly.

 schadenfreude wrote:
If you're going to mostly ignore air a pair of astropaths and an icarus might be adequate.

-2 to reserves will really put a hurt on triple helldrake/cron air.

A single icarus doesn't look like much. I wouldn't even intercept with it. The next turn though prescience + bring it down=deadly.

Astropaths don't cause a minus to reserve rolls, MotF can pick to either +1 AM reserve rolls or -1 enemy reserve rolls but has to pass a leadership to do either

And they have to pass a leadership test to do it, so it's not exactly a for-sure thing. You also still have to take two CCSs to get two of them as well.

The prescience icarus of anger sounds like a good idea, though. Especially convenient that the psyker himself is BS4.

 Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Conscripts is the new black.

As an IC bus?

I don't know... I feel like sniping barrage weapons and precision shots would still grind you down.

Maybe. If only the conscripts themselves weren't so useless. I guess you could do this with naked blobs... but still...

I guess you could take 100 guardsmen (50 guardsmen, 50 conscripts), and have it all run forward and then retire the ICs as needed to the rearward squad. Displacement would be a nightmare, and it would basically be guaranteed extra-casualties (which would offset the durability of bringing that many in the first place). Plus, are the characters themselves going to be doing enough damage? And they're still not hidden...

It's more of an IC shortbus for 1 priest and maybe 1 allied character with hit and run. I think the key is to keep conscripts cheap.

I'm thinking more along the line of a pair of double LC mini 20 blobs that stay in my deployment zone to hold objectives & tank hunt, 4 sniper SWS also for objective camping, and 2 blocks of conscripts for midfield control.

The IC can stay in the rearward squad until they need to join the conscripts or in the conscripts depending on the situation. Shooting LD tests are all good as long as the conscripts are within 6" of a lord commissar. If CC seems eminent all conscripts need is a single priest.

Protecting an IC can be accomplished by hiding the IC out of LOS. All a priest needs to do is be in the unit.

As far as the usefulness of conscripts they pay 9 points per flashlight hit (divided by # of shots) compared to 10 points (divided by # of shots) for regular guardsmen. On a point for point basis they hit 60% harder in CC than regular guardsmen against WS3 and WS4 opponents. They are mostly there to FRFSRF, but if something gets to close swarms of conscripts can be deadly to anything that's not a MC. Against MC they need hit n run. A space marine captain on a bike with a pfist will also go nuts against a MC once he gains hatred and shred, hit n run out, and allow the rest of the army to gun it down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AkhilleusK42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
If you're going to mostly ignore air a pair of astropaths and an icarus might be adequate.

-2 to reserves will really put a hurt on triple helldrake/cron air.

A single icarus doesn't look like much. I wouldn't even intercept with it. The next turn though prescience + bring it down=deadly.

Astropaths don't cause a minus to reserve rolls, MotF can pick to either +1 AM reserve rolls or -1 enemy reserve rolls but has to pass a leadership to do either

I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
And they have to pass a leadership test to do it, so it's not exactly a for-sure thing. You also still have to take two CCSs to get two of them as well.

The prescience icarus of anger sounds like a good idea, though. Especially convenient that the psyker himself is BS4.

Ow yea I forgot he's BS4. I also like you're nickname for it.

A pair of CCS sounds really nice to me. That's 4 sets of orders and 2 squads with access to lots of special weapons. Then again I'm not thinking of taking scions or Leman Russ tanks so I won't be as scrapped for points.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.

M.

 Blacksails wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm not sure we need a vendetta for anti tank anymore.

You're right.

Its needed for anti-air.

The other option is to ignore anti-air entirely and play the ground game.

To quote myself from the other thread:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I think that provided you are not using The Vendetta mainly as a transport (and why would you be) a squadron of 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons at T7 with a 3+ armor/4+ Aegis Line (You are taking an Aegis line, right?) may rival the Vendetta for IG's premier tank-hunter/anti-air.

Vendetta:
-Hit on 6's
-Can Jink for 5+
-Can Maneouvre for better shots on AV
-Transport

Sabrex3:
-Scout move
-Can get Tank/Monster Hunter (As well as the other solid orders)
-20 Points cheaper
-9 Wound unit that can't be instakilled/exploded by non-force/D
-Benefits from Aegis Line
-Interceptor
-Shoots turn 1
-Doesn't take FOC

It seems that if all you're looking For is three twin-linked Lascannons, we have a clear winner in both staying power and damage output. Think it over, Dakka. I think this price hike will see even more Sabres in lists nowadays.

The Vendetta is no longer the best anti-tank/anti-air. It is merely a contender

 TheCaptain wrote:

It seems that if all you're looking For is three twin-linked Lascannons, we have a clear winner in both staying power and damage output. Think it over, Dakka. I think this price hike will see even more Sabres in lists nowadays.

The Vendetta is no longer the best anti-tank/anti-air. It is merely a contender

I always forget about Sabres.

Yeah, they are pretty outstanding. Works well by having a whole platoon to sit around a home objective shooting lascannons. Add a few measures of mech vets, and liberal Russes to taste. Stir, and let simmer for an hour.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.

The model has to take the test, not the unit. So it is on LD 7. Unless I am misunderstanding the rule, which would be nice.

I'm not too worried about MCs getting into close combat with conscripts. Even if by some happenstance they did, conscripts are now cheap enough that I wouldn't get too bothered even if they did. The priest just keeps on denying the challenge and passing out fearless. Sounds like a permanently tarpitted MC.

The biggest threats to conscripts are going to be multi-shot Ap5 en-masse. And there's an awful lot of mass to that.

And really, what are the conscripts going to do? They're not going to bring down tanks or fliers, that's for sure. I guess you can throw a lot of orders at them, but they're still so flakey. They still just have BS2 lasguns, what does it matter if you can give them...

... monster hunter. Hang on. 50 conscripts, 100 shots, 33 hits, 10 wounds. Hmm... And FRF is 50 hits, so 25 armor saves against T4.

The big problem, though, is that there's nothing to make them good against vehicles, now that priests lost their eviscerators and frag grenades are only S3. And throwing in some meltabombs means that you're running into problems where the meltabombs need to be in the front to get used at all, but wound allocation means you lose those meltabombs right away. Commissars can now take powerfists, but same problem. Less so if there are meltabomb sergeants, but that means spending nearly twice as many points on them to make them infantry squads.

You'd also have to have an insane number of models, of course, but that's not a tactical concern other than if you're up against blast weapons, but even the wyvern is going to struggle to make points back against conscripts.

Can they really make it across the table, though?

What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?

Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?