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I find myself lamenting the loss of easy twin linking with bring it down. Monster hunter and tank hunter are pretty awesome don't get me wrong, but I think they benefit veterans more than they benefit regular Guardsmen. Re-rolling penetration rolls and wounds won't help if you can't actually hit your targets in the first place. Yes, we can take a primaris psyker for prescience, but this only works on one unit a turn.

I don't mean to sound like a downer, it might just be a case of resistance to change Guess it's time for a little harmless experimentation.

Mechvets didn't change that much. If you really need the third special weapon to shoot, then pop them out of the transport. If you do that, then suddenly they can receive orders, which are better now. And you still don't need to get them out if only two plasma or melta guns will suffice.

And if you want them to camp and shoot a lascannon, they do this exactly as well now as they did before.

 Blacksails wrote:
What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?

Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?

I like the better armor saves on vets for plasma gunner and the death rate for me from chimeras are down. Cant say about meta vets with the armor.

 Ailaros wrote:
Mechvets didn't change that much. If you really need the third special weapon to shoot, then pop them out of the transport. If you do that, then suddenly they can receive orders, which are better now. And you still don't need to get them out if only two plasma or melta guns will suffice.

And if you want them to camp and shoot a lascannon, they do this exactly as well now as they did before.

That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.

Also, when did you become a DCM?


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Zengu wrote:

I like the better armor saves on vets for plasma gunner and the death rate for me from chimeras are down. Cant say about meta vets with the armor.

Yeah, but then the squad is 185pts...which will still 15pts cheaper than its previous incarnation, still adds up after one or two.

I'm torn. Maybe I'll try it out in a few games.

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I meant OOF, and they have a 5/6 chance of passing LD tests because of the company commander's ld9. The odds are good of both passing their roll.

The model has to take the test, not the unit. So it is on LD 7. Unless I am misunderstanding the rule, which would be nice.

Current understanding of the BRB is models always use the highest LD in the squad for unit or individual tests. There was some debate about it with AS/Inquisition priests, but it seems that the highest LD is always used unless it's a psychic tests.

Blacksails wrote:That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.

Also, when did you become a DCM?

They could always take a heavy flamer, they just worded it more awkwardly in the new codex. That said, it is a little more useful now, I suppose. If you have no intention whatsoever of disembarking, you can make the third vet's weapon a heavy flamer (which is now much cheaper) and have him just sort of chill out and provide overwatch deterrent. They stack with fire barrels too. Don't know how often your chimeras are getting tangled in close combat, though.

And I became a DCM like a week ago, I think. Finally got around to paying for my addiction...

 Ailaros wrote:

Blacksails wrote:That's what I'm thinking too. I'm pleased the heavy flamer is at least an option worth considering, as are the doctrines, though I'll likely just stick to my standard 3x specials. Also saves me from modelling carapace.

Also, when did you become a DCM?

They could always take a heavy flamer, they just worded it more awkwardly in the new codex. That said, it is a little more useful now, I suppose. If you have no intention whatsoever of disembarking, you can make the third vet's weapon a heavy flamer (which is now much cheaper) and have him just sort of chill out and provide overwatch deterrent. They stack with fire barrels too. Don't know how often your chimeras are getting tangled in close combat, though.

And I became a DCM like a week ago, I think. Finally got around to paying for my addiction...

Oh, I never even thought of being an assault deterrent. At 10pts its tempting, especially if you swap out for shotguns to make a hilarious pseudo assault unit.

I don't know what will be 'best', but I am liking the options so far.

And welcome to the club.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm not too worried about MCs getting into close combat with conscripts. Even if by some happenstance they did, conscripts are now cheap enough that I wouldn't get too bothered even if they did. The priest just keeps on denying the challenge and passing out fearless. Sounds like a permanently tarpitted MC.

The biggest threats to conscripts are going to be multi-shot Ap5 en-masse. And there's an awful lot of mass to that.

And really, what are the conscripts going to do? They're not going to bring down tanks or fliers, that's for sure. I guess you can throw a lot of orders at them, but they're still so flakey. They still just have BS2 lasguns, what does it matter if you can give them...

... monster hunter. Hang on. 50 conscripts, 100 shots, 33 hits, 10 wounds. Hmm... And FRF is 50 hits, so 25 armor saves against T4.

The big problem, though, is that there's nothing to make them good against vehicles, now that priests lost their eviscerators and frag grenades are only S3. And throwing in some meltabombs means that you're running into problems where the meltabombs need to be in the front to get used at all, but wound allocation means you lose those meltabombs right away. Commissars can now take powerfists, but same problem. Less so if there are meltabomb sergeants, but that means spending nearly twice as many points on them to make them infantry squads.

You'd also have to have an insane number of models, of course, but that's not a tactical concern other than if you're up against blast weapons, but even the wyvern is going to struggle to make points back against conscripts.

Can they really make it across the table, though?

They only need to make it halfway to FRFSRF 24" into T3/T4 models in the back of an enemy deployment zone and/or hold a mid field objective. Also as an IG player I no longer need to dread the relic as a mission. 50 fearless conscripts advancing towards it is going to cause people problems.

Powerfists are not as good as putting a power maul on a priest. Smash can take the priest to to 1 +1 CCW +1 charge=3attacks at S8 AP2. With hatred they hit rear armor of a vehicle 8/9 times.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I find myself lamenting the loss of easy twin linking with bring it down. Monster hunter and tank hunter are pretty awesome don't get me wrong, but I think they benefit veterans more than they benefit regular Guardsmen. Re-rolling penetration rolls and wounds won't help if you can't actually hit your targets in the first place. Yes, we can take a primaris psyker for prescience, but this only works on one unit a turn.

I don't mean to sound like a downer, it might just be a case of resistance to change Guess it's time for a little harmless experimentation.

its better now, before two CCS's that could "cast" 2 twin link each ,

now you have access to 5 ~50pt pskyers that you can hide in 50 man blobs to twin link AND MH + TH rules!

efficient pts wise, survivable, cool models, very adaptable and effective.

Im loving the chance to model some cool characters for priests and psykers, like you say, experiment a bit, you might be surprised how much you like it!

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Zengu wrote:

I like the better armor saves on vets for plasma gunner and the death rate for me from chimeras are down. Cant say about meta vets with the armor.

Yeah, but then the squad is 185pts...which will still 15pts cheaper than its previous incarnation, still adds up after one or two.

I'm torn. Maybe I'll try it out in a few games.

 Ailaros wrote:
And really, what are the conscripts going to do?

I think that the offensive power of conscripts is simply a bonus for their primary purpose: getting in between you and your enemy and making them go through them. If my main aim is to have the squad die in turns one and two, why spend more on them than I have to? They keep drop pods away from my tanks, they make it so that assault armies have to go through them first. With their low leadership, it is easy to make sure they break in the enemies assault turn and not yours, simply by killing off the LD booster or moving a lord commissar out of range. A well equipped Guardsman squad is double the cost of a conscript squad but not really any more durable. At worst, they are a cheap and mobile cover save for the infantry behind them with the guns.

I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.

For the conscripts, the main thing isnt that there are 50 of them, its that you should have another 50 of then, or normal guard even if you have the pts, backing them up.
I fit 140 guard into my list @1750, easily, plenty of space for specials and tanks,

so with 50 consripts, and 50 GI's, one preist per squad, two inquisitors, three pskers,

SOME armies will shoot the first squad down by turn three when I charge. Even WS spam wont get 100 wounds in 3 turns (assuming 6 WS, lets say above average rolling, 6 no cover wounds per turn, average save 4 wounds per turn, should leave you with 20 guardsmen or more left by turn three when you charge, assuming you didnt go first, (denying the other guy a turn of shooting)

why is that a win?

A. your enemy just spent 3 turns shooting your cheapest unit, and not all the guns shootinghim from the back feild.

B. 20-30 guys, with the prests psykers, and inquisitors, will still cause some damage/distruption ect against most tau/eldar players.

C. you have probably made him hold almost his whole army back in his zone, giving you board control with the other pts you brought.

Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.

It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.

Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.

It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.

Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.

I'm not really a fan of it; I can just imagine always rolling the bonus on the last order of the turn. I would rather spend those 25 points on a vox network. They are much better at making sure orders go off reliably, are not centralised in one squad an look cool.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.

It's a relic that gives you inspired tactics any time you roll doubles and pass. Inspired tactics by the way, has changed from last edition. It's no longer get one free order that auto passes. Now it's all orders issued FOR THE REST OF THE TURN pass automatically. For an IG army, that is huge. It's still not great odds, but you've got roughly a 1/10 chance of pulling it off every turn. For an infantry army that should be spamming orders like crazy, that's awesome.

Obviously there's the downside of an actual double 1's shutting it off, but it still works as normal that turn as well. Since orders are going to be most important the first couple of turns, I would consider it a worthwhile risk for just 25pts.

1/9 per roll, 2 orders so 2/9 turns it activates. The only downside I see is cheap ld9 bubbles mean orders pass 5/6 times anyways.

Blacksails wrote:And welcome to the club.

Do I get a sticker? Other than the snazzy new title, it seems that's about it, given how little there appears to be in the DCM forums.

schadenfreude wrote: Also as an IG player I no longer need to dread the relic as a mission. 50 fearless conscripts advancing towards it is going to cause people problems.

lol, I'm imagining they just keep passing the relic back like a bucket brigade.

schadenfreude wrote: Powerfists are not as good as putting a power maul on a priest. Smash can take the priest to to 1 +1 CCW +1 charge=3attacks at S8 AP2. With hatred they hit rear armor of a vehicle 8/9 times.

Priests can't take power mauls.

If they had ANY melee weapon upgrade options, I'd be singing a different tune, but they don't.

Trickstick wrote:I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.

But meat to what end? The sacrifice is only worth it if you gain something from it.

There's no reason that your opponent can't shoot over your conscripts and just ignore them, whether we're talking gunline, or talking firing meltaguns over bubblewrap at tanks. Plus, bubblewrap makes less sense in a world of more expendable russes (and it wasn't that necessary or useful in the first place). For assaulters, if you even see them anymore, lots of them can fly over stuff, and some stuff can still beat them in close combat (well... eventually). Is it worth it to spend 175 points just for the chance to tarpit something?

This was the problem in the old codex. SitNW was strategic platinum, but even then, they had this problem where the fact that they didn't kill anything almost overcame the fact that they were a permanent scoring unit. Now they're not even that.





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schadenfreude wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Surprised I haven't seen much talk of the Auto Tactical Reliquary or whatever it's called.

1/9 per roll, 2 orders so 2/9 turns it activates. The only downside I see is cheap ld9 bubbles mean orders pass 5/6 times anyways.

Yeah, there might not be that many orders left to auto-pass when it activates in a given turn. Also, the order has to pass. That means that double 5's and 6's won't trigger it (and sometimes double 4's either), and if you get double 1's, the thing breaks.

It seems like this wouldn't wind up doing much a big majority of the time.

Plus, even though orders got better... they're still just orders. If vox sets are still of dubious value, a relic that occasionally works like a vox set isn't going to be THAT great.

Funny fluff, though, and a great modelling opportunity.

I had to take a 2nd look, yep IG priests can't take the power mauls available to AS and Inq.

Looks like the blob just ignores vehicles and shoots scoring units.

Platoons based LC with tank hunters will just have to do the job.

I disagree with the notion that conscipts are just meat. Conscipts have quality through their quantity, and anybody who disagrees by ending their movement phase next to conscipts can find 100 cc attacks is no joke when hate/shred turns that into 75 hits with shred. Conscripts are too slow to relaibly count on getting charges, but anybody wanting to get into cc with the rest of the army is going to need to worry about getting too close to the conscripts.

 Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:I like to imagine using them like a Guard commander would: they are meat. You put the meat in the right place so that it can die in a useful way. You don't expect meat to really do much damage, although if needed you can throw a mass of meat at something and drown it.

But meat to what end? The sacrifice is only worth it if you gain something from it.

There's no reason that your opponent can't shoot over your conscripts and just ignore them, whether we're talking gunline, or talking firing meltaguns over bubblewrap at tanks. Plus, bubblewrap makes less sense in a world of more expendable russes (and it wasn't that necessary or useful in the first place). For assaulters, if you even see them anymore, lots of them can fly over stuff, and some stuff can still beat them in close combat (well... eventually). Is it worth it to spend 175 points just for the chance to tarpit something?

This was the problem in the old codex. SitNW was strategic platinum, but even then, they had this problem where the fact that they didn't kill anything almost overcame the fact that they were a permanent scoring unit. Now they're not even that.

You gain time, control over your opponent and one of the most durable scoring units we have.

Without bubble wrap the enemy can obliterate russes in a single charge or drop. Melta drop pods that have combat squad can come down on turn one and wipe out your tanks before they even fire. With infantry, you can make it impossible for the enemy to get within 6" of your tanks on turn one, you can even manage 12", at least from certain angles. You can leave a single weak spot if you want, setting up the enemy to drop where you want them to drop. They also work well to stop the movement of fliers, and those jet bikes and stuff can't fly over them if there is no where to land in a sea of bodies. You don't even need to use 175 point squads. 30 conscripts with a priest or commissar can bubble wrap an entire flank for a turn or two, combined with the 20 Guardsmen you need anyway.

I just think that for controlling the game and the avenues that the enemy has to attack you, infantry is key. That makes the cheapest infantry in the Codex, which is just as survivable as more expensive squads, full of uses.

Aileros, I don't understand your disdain for blob guard now.

Ok, 50 conscripts w/ priest = 175. thats slightly more expensive then a tooled SM Tac squad, its a melta vet squad w/ a chim and carapace

Yeah, they have BS2, but there is 50 of them. They march towards an objective.

If they get shot, good, they make it so other units heading towards the same objective arent shot.

If they don't get shot, good, they got closer to the objective.

FMC charges them, good, thing probably cost more then the conscripts.

Tooled CC squad hits them, good, they're stuck there for at least 2 turns.

50 Fearless bodies on an objective is pretty hard to remove or eliminate the chance of them contesting, unless your marching them in close order drill just for flamers and templates.

and not make half the table? you can easily start 12" on, then move lets say an average of 8" (w/ run) on the first turn. that gives you 20", turn 2, you move 6". your at the center line.

Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.

The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.

You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.

It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.

Well the amount of frag grenades you have is a threat to rear 10 vehicles, which is a boost over the last codex.

Edit: Why do I think that frags are S4? Stupid me.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.

The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.

You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.

It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.

In that case, the answer might be build some anti-tank with armor. The Tank Commander w/ vanquishers seems to be a popular option and stormtroopers can provide you with DS melta.

The way I am seeing IG now is you buy your HQ and Troops and then build the list around those choices.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.

The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.

You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.

It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.

True, thats why you back it up with a static combined platoon with a non upgraded commie or priest w/ lascannons, along with back field support from orders from CCS, PCS or a prescience psyker which we have easy access too.

Not to mention, ok.... he ignores your conscripts, you now hold an objective. you win. those exact vehicles you mentioned cant do much to a 50 man blob of fearlessness unless they specifically tailored a heavy flamer list against you. or he shoots your concripts, you shoot w/ lascannons, or LRMBTs

Conscripts aren't a serious threat.. (well actually to other light infantry they are a threat) in a damage sense, they still have be dealt with in the sense they cant be moved through, they take up allllooottt of space, and they are scoring troops.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, I'm starting to get the idea of "powerless blobs" congealing. Power blobs only worked because of hidden power weapons, but what if the burden of killing power were put on the regular, non-powered attacks.

The main problem I'm still seeing, though, is vehicles, especially mech gunlines. I know the moment I show up with a list like this against a mech gunline, I'm going to see that C-shape magically form up and just obliterate the infantry. If only a few models make it, they've got to be able to handle this.

You could talk about the PISs and PCS with lascannons, but what happens when they shoot at the lascannons? Yes, the conscripts make it further upfield unmolested, but so what? Now they're standing around not doing anything to those raiders/venoms/chimeras/razorbacks/wave serpents/etc.

It's the fact that the units in front aren't, themselves, a serious threat that's the problem in this circumstance. Taken two platoons as a whole, you're talking about paying over 700 points, and the only anti-tank is the lascannons sitting on fragile squads and in BS3 hands. That's a pretty big deficit to make up for.

not at all... why do you think the blobs are worthless against those targets? 700pts for 50 GI's, 50 conscripts, bare PCS, 2 priests, 3 psykers, caouple M bombs and two INQ with divination is pretty good.

they have, priests, pykers and / or INQ psykers in them if you do them right. Hammer hand gives you str 8 smash, psykers can have force staves +2 str +1 from HH, INQ's can take decent anti armour gear.

+ thats half the reason why I take a full 50 normal GI's as well as 50 conscripts, as the GI's get 5pt m bombs on the srgts too.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.

Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.

Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.

If you really want to go all out for that blob, take a cannoness with a command squad with the banner. It gives +1 attack to all friendly units within 12" not just other SoB squad. Best part is, with a blob you can have a thin line of guys 2" apart connecting the bulk of the blob back to within 12" of the banner allowing it to be far apart.

But really... consider this:

50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades

On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.

Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.

Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.



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Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.

Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).

Rostere wrote:What about middle-sized infantry squad blobs? We have talked about the merits of MSU versus "true" blobs, but could there be a point to having 20 or 30 guardsmen in a unit, finding a "sweet spot" between unit cost, efficiency with orders and buffs, and frailty? Also, what about using mid-size blobs in lots of different platoons in order to maximize number of PCSs?

Personally, I'd never consider running 50 as one squad. Having tried it once or twice with the last codex, I found it just too unwieldy. 40 is the upper limit of what I'd use, 30 is what I generally run. 30 guys gives you a fair benefit from orders, 3 special/heavy weapons and tends to clock in under 250 points even with LC/melta.

Blacksails wrote:What are we all thinking about vets, particularly in chimeras?

Still planning on running 3x specials, or doing 2x special plus heavy flamer due to the chimeras two firepoints? Grenadiers a reasonable option, or the cheaper the vets, the better they are?

I think that running a drive-and-drop setup would be worth trying. 12"+Flat Out on T1, then move+disembark on T2, hopefully putting you in Rapid-fire range with several squads (2 Vets and 1 CCS gives you plenty of special weapons and orders). Give them carapace to have some chance of surviving, and next turn, get back on board with whatever was left, rinse and repeat.

This would work even better with a Scion platoon DSing around an Augur, essentially opening a second front on T2.

Mavnas wrote:


But really... consider this:

50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades

On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.

Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.

Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.

Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).

+1
Except instead of outflanking, why not scout your conscript blob? I love my Inq with the Liber Heresius . They'll be in the center of the board after T1, possibly even shooting with that shoot&run order.
The Inq is really taking the blob over the top, conscripts or guardsmen. MW10 for orders, 'nades, Hammerhand or Divination are all supergood.

I don't think you can use allied Ld for orders, unless the new codex specifies you can? I know it was FAQed in the old codex.

Mavnas wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.

Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.

Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.

If you really want to go all out for that blob, take a cannoness with a command squad with the banner. It gives +1 attack to all friendly units within 12" not just other SoB squad. Best part is, with a blob you can have a thin line of guys 2" apart connecting the bulk of the blob back to within 12" of the banner allowing it to be far apart.

But really... consider this:

50 conscripts
1+ priests (really just enough to pass one of the buffs)
1 inquisitor with hammerhand and rad grenades

On the charge you'd get 100 attacks at S4, vs. an enemy at -1 T.
So instant death vs. enemy T3.

Or vs. MEQ 75 hits, 66.66 wounds, 22.22 failed saves. (Granted they'd go first, so you can't wipe out a 20 marine blob with conscripts in a single phase, but... still. Although if you had re-rollable 4++ (second priest buff + psyker), 20 tactical marines would kill 2 of your guys in melee total.) I'm not sure how often this would come up (or if you can really get all the models in a 50 vs. 20 fight close enough to participate), but imagine how awesome it would be to trade 2 conscripts for 20 marines.

Actually, with primaris psykers making prescience easy to get, there's no reason not to be able to take an inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades if you think that there's any chance you want to put some of your dudes in an assault +1 S -1 enemy T is just a massive force multiplier when you're relying on S3 attacks. Heck... with this guy, guardsmen can hurt up to T8 in melee and a blob bringing a ton of attacks and priest giving you a chance to reroll to hit and to wound even 2+ T6-8 models aren't so good at not being overwhelmed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I just had a scarier thought. If you could find a scout IC to attach to the conscript blob to give it outflanking, you could fill up an entire board edge at a time.

Honestly the only reason I won't run a conscript blob is because painting 50 guys is a giant pain (also moving 50 of them during a game).

The priest's zealot rule confers rage as well right? Wouldn't that mean you're theoretically getting 150 attacks on the charge, if you somehow magically got ALL of them into assault range?

Mavnas wrote:
On the charge you'd get 100 attacks...

Except it is pretty much impossible to get this, the same way it it impossible to get the "150 rapid fire shots with FrF". People cite these best case scenarios that are stupidly hard to do. Try moving 50 conscripts in to 12" range of a unit, or within 2" of an engaged close combat model. When using calculating these situations you need to take into account how many models are likely go get in combat or rapid fire range. Not to mention the expectation of casualties.