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Infantry Guard thought experiment:

40 Conscripts, priest = 145
40 Conscripts, priest = 145
6 Infantry Squads (2 blobs, each with an inquisitor) = 620
2 Platoon Command Squads, with some stuff = 100

This is about a 1000 point core of infantry. It's got 154 dudes. That's going to be hard to kill, no matter how you run it. It has rock-hard psychology, with 6 scoring units (4 that are durable). The conscripts can't really take any vehicles on, but you've got 500+ points to add some stuff that can eliminate problem units at range. Maybe stormtroopers so you can strike them in and remove the thing that the conscripts can't deal with, then let the conscripts hold the objective.

It's quite true that 40 guardsmen can be killed under the proper circumstances, how hilarious is it if your opponent is shooting at conscripts? They're 3 points a model! It's got to be the most inefficient thing there is for any unit to shoot at.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.

Its not a matter of going down the same path. I just don't find the idea of the deathstar instantly worthless as it has been implied due to guard "frailty". When you examine the majority of the criticism, its that guardsmen themselves are too "soft" to warrant buffing. And honestly that is getting on my nerves. I mean, lets look at the whole azreal + 50 guardsmen one. With 50 guardsmen you need at minimum of 50 shots hitting, wounding, and failing the saves to do that. If your shooting at BS 3, you need ~100 shots to achieve just the hitting. At BS 4 you'd need ~77 shots to achieve that. Factoring in wounding you can increase the number alittle more. Now with the 4+ invuln save, you can double that number again. And thats the number of shots you need to make to kill said unit in shooting. That amount of shooting should damn near kill anything outside of the truly ludicrious deathstars. And since you won't get an entire blob into close combat anyways due to spacing, most of that blob is just there to GET you to the other end of the table, not be effective in combat.

So I'm not really trying to tell you to stop playing guard, its just I find the "oh, guardsmen are too weak at T3 to worth it" to be a little stale. We all know guardsmen die. Thats why we have the 50 man blob instead of 10. And outside of large blast/apoc blasts, you need a crapton of shooting to get through 50 models with a 4++. I mean, if 50 guardsmen is too vulnerable with 4++, do you need 60, 70, 100 guardsmen at 4++ to be survivable? Or do we need to increase it to 3++ at 50? At what point do we transition from "this is decently survivable" to "now its nearly unkillable".

And now, because I can, I'll drop the Forgeworld/Escalation argument. If people find the only problem with the deathstar is getting it across the board, get a Crassus. Or if your meta doesn't allow FW, use escalations Stormlord. And if people find AV14 9HP super-heavies too vulnerable to use....I'll go back to asking where is the line between survivable and unkillable?

The above list is 4 durable blobs, each of which is deadly to infantry and some other targets.

Still just brainstorming, I wonder if you just start the game with 2 priests, 2 Primaris Psykers, and 2 Inquisitors and the above 4 blobs + PCS. Depending on what you face, you can alter your strategy and psykic powers. Enemy all meched up? Inquisitors go in with Conscripts to give hammerhand to the front rank to glance vehicles to death. Playing against a shooty castle? Use your four psyker rolls to fish for Forwarning for the 4++ and use that squad to help protect the rest.

You really have a ton of flexibility in what you want each unit to do. You can just make new units based on what you want to complete the mission, with strengths dependent on the psykic powers that your 4 psykers can roll for (or just get automatically).

 kir44n wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.

Its not a matter of going down the same path. I just don't find the idea of the deathstar instantly worthless as it has been implied due to guard "frailty". When you examine the majority of the criticism, its that guardsmen themselves are too "soft" to warrant buffing. And honestly that is getting on my nerves. I mean, lets look at the whole azreal + 50 guardsmen one. With 50 guardsmen you need at minimum of 50 shots hitting, wounding, and failing the saves to do that. If your shooting at BS 3, you need ~100 shots to achieve just the hitting. At BS 4 you'd need ~77 shots to achieve that. Factoring in wounding you can increase the number alittle more. Now with the 4+ invuln save, you can double that number again. And thats the number of shots you need to make to kill said unit in shooting. That amount of shooting should damn near kill anything outside of the truly ludicrious deathstars. And since you won't get an entire blob into close combat anyways due to spacing, most of that blob is just there to GET you to the other end of the table, not be effective in combat.

So I'm not really trying to tell you to stop playing guard, its just I find the "oh, guardsmen are too weak at T3 to worth it" to be a little stale. We all know guardsmen die. Thats why we have the 50 man blob instead of 10. And outside of large blast/apoc blasts, you need a crapton of shooting to get through 50 models with a 4++. I mean, if 50 guardsmen is too vulnerable with 4++, do you need 60, 70, 100 guardsmen at 4++ to be survivable? Or do we need to increase it to 3++ at 50? At what point do we transition from "this is decently survivable" to "now its nearly unkillable".

And now, because I can, I'll drop the Forgeworld/Escalation argument. If people find the only problem with the deathstar is getting it across the board, get a Crassus. Or if your meta doesn't allow FW, use escalations Stormlord. And if people find AV14 9HP super-heavies too vulnerable to use....I'll go back to asking where is the line between survivable and unkillable?

If that is your playstyle, go for it. I feel they are too weak to buff up past a certain point.
instead of putting alot of points on one squad, I'd rather have smaller cookie cutter squads.
If it's good take 3 or 4 has been the IG/AM motto for a long time.

I'm no where near ready to start throwing out lists. Still waiting on my dex.
But I tend to go more for a CCS maxed with SW instead of characters. If I run tank cs, I feel I'd be more inclined to go with two regular ones than pask and a generic.

HOnestly, Its not my playstyle. I play heavily mechanized lists that will occassionally use footguard for orders/light infantry fighters. And it sucks you're still waiting on your dex. I picked mine up last night, made 4 lists today that I'm waiting on my group to use ^^

Ailaros wrote:
What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

Ailaros, I think you may be an Ork player at heart. Im glad to see you back on the IG boards and hope to see an IG batrep soon.

 Trickstick wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
but your preists are LD 10 in effect, as I believe the hymm rule just calls for a standard LD test (which can be on the highest LD in the unit) as it is not called out like psychic powers are as being the casters specific LD.

The rule states that the Priest can take a leadership test, not the unit. You only use the highest value when it is the unit that is taking the test.

Reread the rulebook however. AM Priest warhyms entry is written poorly like everything which is why it gets confused often but you can use the highest LD in the unit for any LD checks with the exception being psychic tests. Strict RAW a priest checks on a 10 if an Inquisitor is in the unit. It doesn't matter that it says he must make a check, he can still use the Inq LD.

I've been thinking large blobs, and well, 50 guys is awesome, but really a pain to move. Why not multiple more modest sized blobs? Say maybe one 30 man blob and a 20 man squad or two? Pepper in some special/heavy weapons for utility and whatnot, and who cares if one squad get wiped out, when there maybe two to three more of similarly sized squads advancing.

I think there may be a utility in movement trays, and I'm not really joking. Make 5 man lines so you can still shift the shape of the unit for terrain or other needs. Just take them off the trays when you assault. Magnetize them and store the models in the trays. Makes deployment and movement quick and easy for a slight loss of efficiency but great gain in speed and enjoyment.

You guys know there are things called movement trays right? Makes moving 200 IG a breeze...

Seriously I've been playing blob guard for years. It's really not a big deal. What is a big deal is rolling 150 die....

Pro tip, color coded die per squad subtract die as guys die.

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

it depends on what build you run.

let's say you run no tanks. you are going to be able to do fairly well against nids. that would be because you are putting a lot of shots in the air from heavy weapons squads, you've got some plasma guns running around in chimeras, and you're using psykers to prescience the heavy weapons squads.

however, let's say you run a lot of tanks. from my experience the nids players are going to salivate. take the monstrous creatures and assault the tanks asap. if the tanks are in squadrons, you'll have an easier time. i hate it when i have a good gun line going and i face MCs. they pop the tanks very easily and take advantage of the squadron rules to explode multiple tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:
Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

unfortunately, they specifically mention that you cannot do that in the codex.

screaming flayers wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

unfortunately, they specifically mention that you cannot do that in the codex.

They forbid you from using the order that lets the squad fire at different targets be used in that way, but that doesn't prevent Pask from shooting both himself if PotMS would allow it.

It has nothing to do with potms. You fire one unit and all of its guns at the same time, just because players since the dawn of 3rd edition have fired potms last doesn't make it correct :p. Shooting rules clearly you fire one unit, resolve all hits then move to next. The transport isn't destroyed until after all hits are resolved.

 Kirasu wrote:
It has nothing to do with potms. You fire one unit and all of its guns at the same time, just because players since the dawn of 3rd edition have fired potms last doesn't make it correct :p. Shooting rules clearly you fire one unit, resolve all hits then move to next. The transport isn't destroyed until after all hits are resolved.

since the russ is a heavy vehicle and can always fire all weapons at full ballistic skill does potms even help a russ?

PotMS allows you to fire a gun at a different target.

So Pask giving an order + PotMS on his tank means he can fire his main gun at a target, his other guns at a second target, and rest of the unit must fire at a third target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, I think the simultaneous nature of shooting makes it impossible to shoot and clean up the mess with a single unit. I guess though it means with a tech priest you could justify a lascannon on Pask's short range murder machine because you could always choose to shoot at something far away with it.

screaming flayers wrote:

since the russ is a heavy vehicle and can always fire all weapons at full ballistic skill does potms even help a russ?

There are cases being made for POTMS overriding Ordnance for a Battle Tank / Demolisher. Not that many people take those variants these days.

Going to talk about conscripts in the context of a pair of 1,750 lists. A FW IG list and a SM list with allied IG. In both cases the allies are white scars.

Forge world 1,750 list
CCS 3 melta flag Chimera
Lvl 2 Primaris
Lvl 2 Primaris
Commissar
Priest
PCS 4 sniper
SWS 3 sniper
SWS 3 sniper
PIS with LC
PIS with LC,
49 conscripts
2 sabers TL LC extra crew
2 sabers TL LC extra crew
Plasma vets with camo cloaks
3 earth shaker carriages
3 Thudd guns
Aegis
White scars captain with artificer, pfist, bike
5 bikers with 2 grav guns

In this list the SM captain doesn’t go full beat stick, but he is rather dangerous on a charge because the priest would give him rerolls to hit and either shred or reroll armor saves. The list has a solid gunline quality with the prescience and ignore cover for earth shakers exc… In this list all the conscripts need to do is prevent assault units from getting to the artillery.


Non forge world list SM 1,750 with allied IG
Khan
6 squads 5 of bikes each with 2 grav guns
CCS 3 melta flag Chimera
Lvl 2 Primaris
Commissar
Priest
Priest
PCS 4 sniper
SWS 3 sniper
SWS 3 sniper
PIS with LC
PIS with LC,
50 conscripts
Aegis with LC

In this list the conscripts will scout forward 6” with Khan. The bikes can play aggressive, and if something assaults the bikes the conscripts can assault them. Otherwise the conscripts will just advance 6” on turn 1 and FRFSRF. On turn 2 they can be 18” up field with Khan to add a few extra inches and can charge on turn 2. The aegis can be deployed midfield to give the conscripts cover on turn 1 though it would force a difficult terrain test for them on turn 2. It’s still possible to kill all those conscripts before my turn 2, but all that dakka isn’t going into the bikes. Frankly I expect the conscripts to be ignored until after they have charged a unit in the enemy deployment zone because the bikes are probably going to be shot up first.

Scouting conscripts is also possible with an inquisitor. There is also the option to outflank with scouting conscripts. I’m really liking the ultra cheap conscripts in the AM book.

screaming flayers wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
It has nothing to do with potms. You fire one unit and all of its guns at the same time, just because players since the dawn of 3rd edition have fired potms last doesn't make it correct :p. Shooting rules clearly you fire one unit, resolve all hits then move to next. The transport isn't destroyed until after all hits are resolved.

since the russ is a heavy vehicle and can always fire all weapons at full ballistic skill does potms even help a russ?

Yes, because you can split fire. Say, you had a Vanquisher with 3x heavy bolters and a stubber - you could fire the 3x Heavy Bolters and a Stubber at that nearby Firewarrior unit while your main gun nails the hammerhead behind them.

I was thinking to start a renegade Astra Militarum army with Chaos Daemons and an Imperial Knight as allies plus the Helcult formation - Anyway I was thinking about Leman Russ Squadrons and maybe a Basilisk battery; I don't understand how helpful it will be to include more than one per squadron - Isn't that a lot of points which have to shoot at a single enemy unit?

Edit: Grammar

Heafstaag wrote:I've been thinking large blobs, and well, 50 guys is awesome, but really a pain to move. Why not multiple more modest sized blobs? Say maybe one 30 man blob and a 20 man squad or two? Pepper in some special/heavy weapons for utility and whatnot, and who cares if one squad get wiped out, when there maybe two to three more of similarly sized squads advancing.

I think this is the way to go, and incidentally is what I used back in 5th. I find 30 to be the sweet spot for blobs, finding a balance between manoeuvrability, firepower, return from buffs and per-unit durability. 2-4 30-man blobs+conscripts is probably a great core for a foot or hybrid list.

Biophysical wrote:Infantry Guard thought experiment:

40 Conscripts, priest = 145
40 Conscripts, priest = 145
6 Infantry Squads (2 blobs, each with an inquisitor) = 620
2 Platoon Command Squads, with some stuff = 100

This is about a 1000 point core of infantry. It's got 154 dudes. That's going to be hard to kill, no matter how you run it. It has rock-hard psychology, with 6 scoring units (4 that are durable). The conscripts can't really take any vehicles on, but you've got 500+ points to add some stuff that can eliminate problem units at range. Maybe stormtroopers so you can strike them in and remove the thing that the conscripts can't deal with, then let the conscripts hold the objective.

It's quite true that 40 guardsmen can be killed under the proper circumstances, how hilarious is it if your opponent is shooting at conscripts? They're 3 points a model! It's got to be the most inefficient thing there is for any unit to shoot at.

This is pretty much exactly what I just mentioned. Rather than an all-eggs-in-one-basket deathstar, you've got several units that are a threat in their own right. With orders you can keep them going forward and shooting, and if you want to hang back instead, then you've got the defensive firepower and number of bodies.

I'd spend the remaining points on mostly anti-tank options. LC for the platoons, some Vendettas or Vanquishers, and maybe an ADL to put midfield.

I'm trying to better develop the idea, but I think the ability tailor your forces after listbuilding is done can be a huge advantage. I'm kicking around a variant of the above idea right now that has three main elements:

1.) 4 squads in a platoon
2.) 3 Squads in a platoon
3.) 30-40 Conscripts
4.) Support Characters (for the sake of argument, I'm going all out with 3 Plasma Priests and 3 Level 2 Primaris Psykers for 356 points in supporting characters.

You always have your large Conscript blob, but the platoon squads can be modfied as you need them. There's a lot of potentially useful combinations.
For example:
Conscripts, 2x20 man blobs, 30 man blob
Conscripts, 40 man blob, 3x10 man squads
Conscripts, 4x10 man squad, 3x10 man squad

This is further modified by where your support characters go, which depends on your psykic powers. With 3 level 2's, you get 6 rolls on the Divination table (1 at a time). As an aside, I've really tried to make the argument to myself that other tables offer good options, but the occasional home run power in Biomancy or Telekinesis is just not worth the 100% goodness of Divination.

So pretend I find myself up against screamerstar. First I roll out each of my Psykers (I'm doing this with dice as I type).
First Primaris: Misfortune, Perfect Timing (switched out for Prescience because demons use invulnerables anyway)
Second Primaris: Scrier's Gaze (made Prescience because I'm not using reserves), Precognition
Third Primaris: Forewarning, Scrier's Gaze (switched for Prescience).

Misfortune is a big deal, and has good range, but needs to be protected. It also means I want more offensive power because I can now really lay the hurt on the Screamers when that power goes off. I start building a central squad to be my hammer, so I combine the 4 squad platoon into one unit. My Misfortune and Forewarning Psykers go there with at least one Priest. The 3 Squad platoon gets split up to spread out my scoring power and limit what he can hit in one turn. The Conscripts get a Priest and the Precognition Psyker. The Conscripts screen the main unit and everybody focuses on supporting units until Misfortune makes it through, then everybody drops a ton of pain on the Screamerstar. The Screamers can't even hide in close combat all that well, because a mountain of re-roll to hit, possibly re-roll to wound S3 attacks will drag them down if Misfortune is up.

Now let's say you didn't get Misfortune. Instead of blobbing up one squad, you just split everybody into 7 individual squads. Psykers and Priests are divvied up into these squads to provide leadership support (one Priest going to the Conscripts, obviously), and you play the denial game where you destroy supporting units and deny a good target to the Screamers.

Has anyone noticed that the Taurox has 4 fire-points as compared to the Chimera's 2? It comes stock with a TL-autocannon; stick a vet team in there too with a Autocannon.. seems like a good idea?

Razerous wrote:
Has anyone noticed that the Taurox has 4 fire-points as compared to the Chimera's 2? It comes stock with a TL-autocannon; stick a vet team in there too with a Autocannon.. seems like a good idea?

It only has 2 fire points on each SIDE, from what I read, which makes it impossible to fire all 4 at once.

 Atheos wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Has anyone noticed that the Taurox has 4 fire-points as compared to the Chimera's 2? It comes stock with a TL-autocannon; stick a vet team in there too with a Autocannon.. seems like a good idea?

It only has 2 fire points on each SIDE, from what I read, which makes it impossible to fire all 4 at once.

I'f I'm looking at the model correctly, they appear similar to predator sponsons. There may be a blind-spot 6-7" in-front of the vehicle but it should be able to engage targets further out. Wider targets, not a problem.

Razerous wrote:
. I'f I'm looking at the model correctly, they appear similar to predator sponsons. There may be a blind-spot 6-7" in-front of the vehicle but it should be able to engage targets further out. Wider targets, not a problem.

I could be wrong but the two little ports on the side wouldn't act like sponsons, in my opinion, as they wouldn't give a large arc of fire. They'd have something like, 130-40 degrees of fire.

They're not sticking out like sponsons to allow them to have more of a crossfire arc, they're coming directly from the side outwards. Much like the chimera lasgun sponsons.

So how do people feel about special weapons teams with sniper rifles? 36pts for 6 guys who can sit on a backfield objective and still make a token effort at plinking away at some high T target.

Mavnas wrote:
So how do people feel about special weapons teams with sniper rifles? 36pts for 6 guys who can sit on a backfield objective and still make a token effort at plinking away at some high T target.

Not bad if you have the points to get rid of. Worst case scenario a unit will shoot at them, and that's a turn not shooting at a different (more valuable) target. Best case scenario, they score and objective and 3VPs, and maybe even hurt/pin something.

It's also worth noting that, apart from bare henchmen, I think that's the cheapest scoring unit in the game, which may count for something. I've found small, empty henchmen squads useful as they just get ignored, so maybe this is the IG's equivalent.

I think the SWS snipers are pretty legit. You get six dudes with guns that don't require you to be in danger-close range to use, and you're actually pretty durable per point. It's pretty much the perfect MSU guard unit. You don't expect them to do much, but for 36 points they don't have to do much. With Precision shots and rending, though you can always get lucky and do something cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember, they also can do damage to light armor.

Yeah, it seems like you could field an army with too many scoring units for an enemy to kill. If you are facing some nasty army based around a star that will murder 1-2 units per turn, having several platoons broken up into MSUs counters them pretty hard. For a bit over 250 points you can get 6 (PCS, 2 infantry, 3 SWS). None of those are too sturdy, but you could easily have 20 scoring units, several of which are small enough to fully hide out of LoS. You'd still have enough points for some tanks and/or vendettas, though at that point your main goal would be to pick off as many of the enemy's weakest units leaving him with few options to remove all your scoring units in time. I still need to get used to this game being mostly objective based.

Thinking about it more, the whole blobs/MSU debate could be close to being answered with the Sniper SWS. Following on from Biophysical's post about the versatility of the platoon structure and how it allows one to tailor against an opponent, and Mavnas's comments on the huge potential for scoring units:

You get 3 sniper SWS for just over 100 points. 200 points get you 6 scoring units+whatever else you've got in platoons. Using Biophysical's suggested setup of

Platoon 1:
PCS
2x PIS
40 Conscripts

Platoon 2:
PCS
4x PIS

I'd add in 3 Sniper SWS to each. For just 200 points you've got another 6 scoring units. If you blob, that's more than doubling your scoring potential. If you don't, the enemy has to kill 15 scoring units. Either way, that 200 points has given you a huge boost in scoring while not detracting from your core blobbing potential. In other words, you get MSU and blobs if you want it.