Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
edit- Also, it'd be nice if someone answered my question. If scions are in a platoon, does that mean that a single successful reserve roll brings them all the squads in together?

Unless they specified anything for the Scions, platoons count as one unit for the purposes of reserves until they are deployed.

Actually, that's not the case.

In the old guard codex, it specifically stated that platoons counted as a single entity for reserves. It no longer has that special rule, and I can't find it anywhere else. The only thing they say is that a platoon only takes up one force org slot, but that's all.

It looks like platoons now come in piecemeal from reserves.

Also, to stir the pot a bit, they went out of their way to insist that infantry platoons took up a single force org slot, but they didn't say that about scion platoons. Does that mean that they don't take up a single elites slot?

In any case, they come in piecemeal as well.

Biophysical wrote: 4 shots per 65 point tank is a lot of firepower, even at S4. There's so many twin-linked shots, with shred, that even sub-optimal targets take a lot of damage.

But we both know that just because a tank is cheap and has 4 twin-linked shots doesn't make it good. Just look at the hydra.

Just like with the hydra, where you have to expand your vision to notice things like skyfire without interceptor, so you have to widen your field of view with the wyvern to see the "Ap6 blast" part.

 Ailaros wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
edit- Also, it'd be nice if someone answered my question. If scions are in a platoon, does that mean that a single successful reserve roll brings them all the squads in together?

Unless they specified anything for the Scions, platoons count as one unit for the purposes of reserves until they are deployed.

Actually, that's not the case.

In the old guard codex, it specifically stated that platoons counted as a single entity for reserves. It no longer has that special rule, and I can't find it anywhere else. The only thing they say is that a platoon only takes up one force org slot, but that's all.

It looks like platoons now come in piecemeal from reserves.

Also, to stir the pot a bit, they went out of their way to insist that infantry platoons took up a single force org slot, but they didn't say that about scion platoons. Does that mean that they don't take up a single elites slot?

In any case, they come in piecemeal as well.

Biophysical wrote: 4 shots per 65 point tank is a lot of firepower, even at S4. There's so many twin-linked shots, with shred, that even sub-optimal targets take a lot of damage.

But we both know that just because a tank is cheap and has 4 twin-linked shots doesn't make it good. Just look at the hydra.

Just like with the hydra, where you have to expand your vision to notice things like skyfire without interceptor, so you have to widen your field of view with the wyvern to see the "Ap6 blast" part.

How incredibly annoying of them... You can't say for sure what they count as in reserves if that's the case. You have to decide to use combined squads before deployment though right, so in that case you have a regular guardsmen blob come in as one single unit (not including the PCS). That wouldn't work for Scions though, sucks that they changed the platoon thing. GW giveth and GW taketh away.

Once again, my lack of a codex at work makes me look like a jabroni haha

AP6 on the Wyvern isn't as damning as you think.

It's just as good as AP5 against 4+ saves, just as good as AP4 against 3+ saves, and just as good as AP3 against 2+ saves. In other words, it's never going to AP their armor. On the other hand, it's never going to give the enemy cover saves. This can be a big deal when you G2G with a bunch of crappy-save models like Cultists who are camping on a backfield objective.


I'm not sold on them yet - I think the Manticore is still probably a better buy, but they have the benefit of survivability. I'll give them a shot.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's just as good as AP5 against 4+ saves, just as good as AP4 against 3+ saves, and just as good as AP3 against 2+ saves. In other words, it's never going to AP their armor.

Exactly. Do we say that heavy bolters are good at killing marines? Do we say that banewolves are a good unit to take against terminators? No, we call them bad at that role. By extension, Ap6 is bad against every armor class except for against Sv6+.

You can sometimes ameliorate this problem by other means. For example, people talk about how weight of fire makes lasguns not so bad. But in this case, you need serious volume of fire, which four small blasts doesn't achieve. It's the same reason why a grenade-launcher PCS is scarcely taken - a few small blasts just doesn't do enough. Now yes, the wyvern is better than 4 grenade launchers (except against vehicles), but it's somewhat better than something that's VERY weak. It's sort of like noting that one poop smells less worse.

And as for units dug into heavy cover for that magic 2+, there are plenty of ways of digging them out, and the wyvern isn't the best among them. Not that it has to be, of course, but when it's not even the best in its own slot, that does raise some eyebrows, given that it's such a specialist weapon.

I tried a single wyvern in a small game last night, first round killed 6 Marines, Second round Killed 1 eldar artillery battery gun (thanks to re rolls) and killed a few guardians.

Did heaps for the points, but the taurox ended up doing a lot more killing a farseer + guardians and taking a lot of hits.

I still lost unfortunately but both vehicles surprised me.

I might take 2 next time.

Being a spiteful person, I can do no more than point and laugh at the Taurox given that I, as an SM player, has been stuck with Rhinos. I also get gleeful looking at the wyven while patting my TFC.

That said, you have Manticores for backfield and Eradicators for midfield. Granted Wyverns can probably put out more wounds per point than a manticore, but their target of choice is pretty niche.

Swastakowey wrote:I tried a single wyvern in a small game last night, first round killed 6 Marines

Six marines?

That means either you were very, very lucky, or you got over SIX HITS per small blast template, in which case your opponent needs to learn not to deploy his space marines in a filled-in circle with all of the bases touching each other.

Maybe the 6 marines left their helmets off...

Yea they had to bunch up because my friend had deep striked some space marine things, he had them all in a 2 deep row behind cover (to try not die from the in even your opinion superior other weapons) and they even had a 6+ feel no pain which saved a couple. With the re rolls to wound its so easy to get wounds. And hit special weapons.

I was guessing bailed out of a vehicle or hiding behind cover. With the Wyvern, you make them chose to space out our eat it. Even spaced out you can pick the most important model in a squad and kill it pretty reliably.

Biophysical wrote:
I was guessing bailed out of a vehicle or hiding behind cover. With the Wyvern, you make them chose to space out our eat it. Even spaced out you can pick the most important model in a squad and kill it pretty reliably.

Pretty much, I mean its not mega amazing, but its not horrifically bad at all. Just above average. Which is fine for 60 points.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm not impressed with wyverns at all.
200 points for a squadron of three gets you 12 shots.

Assuming *every* shot doesn't scatter at all (and this isn't very likely, even with re-rolls), with a small blast you're only going to be hitting at *most* two models if your opponent does even a semi-decent job at spreading out his unit. So 12 shots, hitting two models each is 24 hits.

24 STR4 AP6 shots with re-rolls to wound does 6 wounds on average to MEQ, 11 to Firewarriors and 14 to GEQ.

But that's with optimal conditions, assuming there's *no* scatter for any of them, which is rather unlikely.

idk.

How's that bad again? And even a bad turn of shooting, they'll likely get more no? How many lists can effortlessly contend with 3 of these bastards sitting at your board edge potentially behind los blocking terrain.

>Just wiped almost a full squad of Firewarriors off the board or a huge chunk of an IG platoon or wiped/half wiped an MEQ squad.
>Meh, that level of firepower isn't impressive.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm not impressed with wyverns at all.
200 points for a squadron of three gets you 12 shots.

Assuming *every* shot doesn't scatter at all (and this isn't very likely, even with re-rolls), with a small blast you're only going to be hitting at *most* two models if your opponent does even a semi-decent job at spreading out his unit. So 12 shots, hitting two models each is 24 hits.

24 STR4 AP6 shots with re-rolls to wound does 6 wounds on average to MEQ, 11 to Firewarriors and 14 to GEQ.

But that's with optimal conditions, assuming there's *no* scatter for any of them, which is rather unlikely.

idk.

How's that bad again? And even a bad turn of shooting, they'll likely get more no? How many lists can effortlessly contend with 3 of these bastards sitting at your board edge potentially behind los blocking terrain.

>Just wiped almost a full squad of Firewarriors off the board or a huge chunk of an IG platoon or wiped/half wiped an MEQ squad.
>Meh, that level of firepower isn't impressive.

>The year of our lord 2014
>Greentexting outside of 4chan

I have a hard time taking the Wyrven seriously when IG now has PLENTY of options for removing cover (including an order).

 Happygrunt wrote:


>The year of our lord 2014
>Greentexting outside of 4chan

I have a hard time taking the Wyrven seriously when IG now has PLENTY of options for removing cover (including an order).

I cringe when people do this. I think I pulled a neck muscle.

I don't doubt the Wyvern isn't awful, but its using up precious heavy slots that can be filled with well-rounded units like Russes of most flavours and Manticores.

Don't forget the Manticore is still D3 large blast, netting you an average of 2 Large Blasts per turn, at S10 and AP4.

I don't think its a matter of the Wyvern being bad, but more of it being worth it in contention for proven, take all comer options that can handle everything thrown at them.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I tried a single wyvern in a small game last night, first round killed 6 Marines, Second round Killed 1 eldar artillery battery gun (thanks to re rolls) and killed a few guardians.

Did heaps for the points, but the taurox ended up doing a lot more killing a farseer + guardians and taking a lot of hits.

I still lost unfortunately but both vehicles surprised me.

I might take 2 next time.

In my last game with my SoB army my very first shooting attack, dominions with HB and rending buff activated scored me first blood off an eldar wraith knight that had been foolishly deployed in the open. Does that mean I should always base my decisions on that one time I turned 12 shots into 3 rending hits? (The other two dom squads stripped two hull points each from his wave serpents. So yeah my dice were hot that turn.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea they had to bunch up because my friend had deep striked some space marine things, he had them all in a 2 deep row behind cover (to try not die from the in even your opinion superior other weapons) and they even had a 6+ feel no pain which saved a couple. With the re rolls to wound its so easy to get wounds. And hit special weapons.

Moral of this story, forget Hydra needing interceptor, give it to the wyverns!

The manticore with enginseer allowing it to fire twice will also be a problem, but you can have that and still have 3 wyverns in a squadron. And still have potentially 3 more russ squadrons because all you have to do is pay a 30pt tax and get a tank commander, which makes said squadron hq.

If you want your manticore to dissallow cover saves it takes some chance, that's the crucial difference for me. I have to hope one of my primaris psykers rolls perfect timing. The manticore is great, just not ideal for targetting units in cover.

I guess the real question is if power of the machine spirit lets a deathstrike fire turn one.

Mavnas wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I tried a single wyvern in a small game last night, first round killed 6 Marines, Second round Killed 1 eldar artillery battery gun (thanks to re rolls) and killed a few guardians.

Did heaps for the points, but the taurox ended up doing a lot more killing a farseer + guardians and taking a lot of hits.

I still lost unfortunately but both vehicles surprised me.

I might take 2 next time.

In my last game with my SoB army my very first shooting attack, dominions with HB and rending buff activated scored me first blood off an eldar wraith knight that had been foolishly deployed in the open. Does that mean I should always base my decisions on that one time I turned 12 shots into 3 rending hits? (The other two dom squads stripped two hull points each from his wave serpents. So yeah my dice were hot that turn.)

No no at all, but whats more likely, a wyvern killing 6 marines, or a heavy bolter killing a wraith knight. Its not like 6 marines are hard to kill... But what it does show, is that sometimes those cheap units bring out surprises. And should not be dismissed off hand (unless you are playing competitively where things like this matter to the percent) because they can, and frequently will do more than you expect.

I remember the first time I ran the thunderfire, opponent was like "oh cute a fluffy unit no one ever plays" and post game was like "that things undercosted, it's bs bla bla bla". That will happen with the wyverns, oh god it will happen.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I remember the first time I ran the thunderfire, opponent was like "oh cute a fluffy unit no one ever plays" and post game was like "that things undercosted, it's bs bla bla bla". That will happen with the wyverns, oh god it will happen.

Except the Wyvern can't ID T3 models or be AP4.

Are Heavy slots really that precious anymore? Russes can be part of HQs, lots of our heavies can squadron, fast attack choices come loaded with firepower.

I think the Wyvern mathematically stands up very well to the Manticore. You basically get 3 Wyverns for a Manticore and change. If we use this hypothetical "max spacing", the Manticore is hitting 6 models if it gets two shots that don't scatter. If the Wyvern hits a model with it's initial blast (highly likely), it'll hit 2 more with each further "hit" rolled (about 6 more should be hits), plus any off the scatters. If we assume the scatters hit no more models, the Wyvern is doing 13 hits. That's ~9 wounds to T4. The Manticore is doing ~5. That's assuming they both get a good initial hit and the Wyvern scatters get zero hits, which is skewing the math heavily in favor of the Manticore.

I'm calling it now, the Wyvern squadron is not dropping pie plates, it's dropping hockey pucks, because the plates stack so high on top of each other.

 Crablezworth wrote:
The manticore with enginseer allowing it to fire twice will also be a problem...

It doesn't work. The Manticore has a weapon called "Storm Eagle Rockets", which is still only one weapon. It counts them as different weapons for destroyed results, but nothing states it counts as more than one weapon in other cases.

I like Wyvern...but in squadron of three, because without damage overload it simply (IMO) wont work so well. But 6 TL Shred blasts generates a huge potential to fail those armor saves.

Still, as big fan of Basilisk I probably will not take them, because... I like BIG GUNS

By the way, I met, now many times, opinion that Take Aim! order makes every single shot (not just sixes) made by unit Precision...god no... I see the wording is poor, but its clearly not intended this way, from the sole reason it would be completely absurd. So, please, dont tell me there is a lot of people who want to play it this way and not just, with common sense, to sixes.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:


>The year of our lord 2014
>Greentexting outside of 4chan

I have a hard time taking the Wyrven seriously when IG now has PLENTY of options for removing cover (including an order).

I cringe when people do this. I think I pulled a neck muscle.

I don't doubt the Wyvern isn't awful, but its using up precious heavy slots that can be filled with well-rounded units like Russes of most flavours and Manticores.

Don't forget the Manticore is still D3 large blast, netting you an average of 2 Large Blasts per turn, at S10 and AP4.

I don't think its a matter of the Wyvern being bad, but more of it being worth it in contention for proven, take all comer options that can handle everything thrown at them.

Indirectly insulting me and turning your nose up at me because of internet etiquette. I'd say I cringed, or more likely, laughed, but I didn't, mostly because in my experience the internet doesn't cause that sort of physical reaction.

Some people need to descend from their correctional high horses.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Russes can be taken as HQ choices, most often you'll be taking max 2 Manticores, and a single Manticore costs almost as much as 3 Wyverns, has a chance to flop and give you one pie plate, or miss the single ranging pie plate, and even with 2 S10 AP4 pie plates are you really getting better than 12 TL S4 Shred small blasts? I'd say almost certainly not.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The manticore with enginseer allowing it to fire twice will also be a problem...

It doesn't work. The Manticore has a weapon called "Storm Eagle Rockets", which is still only one weapon. It counts them as different weapons for destroyed results, but nothing states it counts as more than one weapon in other cases.

Ah, very true. It's still just one weapon. My bad.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The manticore with enginseer allowing it to fire twice will also be a problem...

It doesn't work. The Manticore has a weapon called "Storm Eagle Rockets", which is still only one weapon. It counts them as different weapons for destroyed results, but nothing states it counts as more than one weapon in other cases.

Ah, very true. It's still just one weapon. My bad.

No problem. I tried to break the rule when I first read it, was pleased that I couldn't.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
By the way, I met, now many times, opinion that Take Aim! order makes every single shot (not just sixes) made by unit Precision...god no... I see the wording is poor, but its clearly not intended this way, from the sole reason it would be completely absurd. So, please, dont tell me there is a lot of people who want to play it this way and not just, with common sense, to sixes.

I'm sure there'a a YMDC thread on this. RAW, ALL hits are Precision Shots. RAI, PROBABLY only 6's are Precision Shots. But, like I say, there'a a better place to discuss and debate this.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
I like Wyvern...but in squadron of three, because without damage overload it simply (IMO) wont work so well. But 6 TL Shred blasts generates a huge potential to fail those armor saves.

12, not six. Each Wyvern has 2 Stormshard Mortars, which are Heavy 2.

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
By the way, I met, now many times, opinion that Take Aim! order makes every single shot (not just sixes) made by unit Precision...god no... I see the wording is poor, but its clearly not intended this way, from the sole reason it would be completely absurd. So, please, dont tell me there is a lot of people who want to play it this way and not just, with common sense, to sixes.

I'm sure there'a a YMDC thread on this. RAW, ALL hits are Precision Shots. RAI, PROBABLY only 6's are Precision Shots. But, like I say, there'a a better place to discuss and debate this.

If your opponent does go with the first thing, laugh at your good fortune and cackle insanely when met with a screamer-star.

Swastakowey wrote:

Biophysical wrote:I was guessing bailed out of a vehicle or hiding behind cover.

Pretty much

But this is 6th ed where you get to emergency disembark. If he clustered his troops that much, then it was a choice. And if he had a 6+ FNP, that means you need to get either SEVEN OR EIGHT HITS per small blast template. What is even the maximum number that it's possible to hit with a blast template?

Either you got extremely lucky, or your opponent played in literally the stupidest possible way possible, and you merely got very lucky.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I tried a single wyvern in a small game last night, first round killed 6 Marines, Second round Killed 1 eldar artillery battery gun (thanks to re rolls) and killed a few guardians.

Did heaps for the points, but the taurox ended up doing a lot more killing a farseer + guardians and taking a lot of hits.

I still lost unfortunately but both vehicles surprised me.

I might take 2 next time.

In my last game with my SoB army my very first shooting attack, dominions with HB and rending buff activated scored me first blood off an eldar wraith knight that had been foolishly deployed in the open. Does that mean I should always base my decisions on that one time I turned 12 shots into 3 rending hits? (The other two dom squads stripped two hull points each from his wave serpents. So yeah my dice were hot that turn.)

No no at all, but whats more likely, a wyvern killing 6 marines, or a heavy bolter killing a wraith knight. Its not like 6 marines are hard to kill... But what it does show, is that sometimes those cheap units bring out surprises. And should not be dismissed off hand (unless you are playing competitively where things like this matter to the percent) because they can, and frequently will do more than you expect.

4 rending heavy bolters have around a 1 in 8 chance of inflicting 3 or more rending hits. I can do the math for your gun killing 6 marines when I get home.