For the Emperor!: The combined IG/AM tactica thread.

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**rabidguineapig**

That's true, under certain circumstances it could be definitely be useful but I just wouldn't rely on that as anything more than a hopeful risk.

**kir44n**

rabidguineapig wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.

If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?

It could depend on where the Helldrake came is coming in on the board at. Because of the 90 degree turn limitation and the speed in which it can move, where your forces are on the board + where you see him having the hellturkey come in at can tell you alot. If it appears that its going for a different unit, save the shots until later. If its going for the quad gun, shoot the sucker and hope for the best.

The ease with which the ADL quad gun is either de-manned is a leading reason I take bastions for the quadguns instead of the ADL. The ADL may provide cover saves, but if I NEED AA, I would rather have it on a far more durable platform. Stick a single allied inquisitor inside a bastion with ADL, and you have an AV 14 psyker that has BS4 Twinlinked skyfire/interceptor, than can cast presciense measuring anywhere from the bastions hull.

**schadenfreude**

kir44n wrote:
rabidguineapig wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.

If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?

It could depend on where the Helldrake came is coming in on the board at. Because of the 90 degree turn limitation and the speed in which it can move, where your forces are on the board + where you see him having the hellturkey come in at can tell you alot. If it appears that its going for a different unit, save the shots until later. If its going for the quad gun, shoot the sucker and hope for the best.

The ease with which the ADL quad gun is either de-manned is a leading reason I take bastions for the quadguns instead of the ADL. The ADL may provide cover saves, but if I NEED AA, I would rather have it on a far more durable platform. Stick a single allied inquisitor inside a bastion with ADL, and you have an AV 14 psyker that has BS4 Twinlinked skyfire/interceptor, than can cast presciense measuring anywhere from the bastions hull.

Or just have conscripts and a primaris man the gun. Turkey comes on and roasts a half dozen or so conscripts who cares the turkey can't snipe the primaris. Next turn the squad passes bring it down on a 9.

**Mavnas**

I also at some point considered putting a canonness on the gun 3+/4++ Eternal Warrior. Even if the turkey got a hit off, it would take awhile get through her 3 wounds.

One thing I didn't really see this book talk about is allied ICs in guard squads. Do they get to use their leadership to accept the orders? Do they get the benefits? RAW would seem to imply yes, precedent and common sense would imply no.

**Paradigm**

Mr.Omega wrote:
Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

Let's look at the options:

ADL: Greater coverage, same save, can take an upgraded weapon to be a threat at range, greater bonus for GtG, Fraction of the cost. Can still combine with Camo Netting, even on several tanks,and still winds up cheaper than ogryn.

Conscripts: easily made fearless, with Camo netting gives a 4+ cover save to vehicles behind it (same as Bullgryn), covers more area (board control), can be pretty shooty or play aggressively while still covering.

Infantry blob: as conscripts, but can take a bunch of Lascannons to be effective at range.

I think each of those adds a lot more than Bullgryn to the army, and generally for a cheaper cost.

To be, the Bullgryns have a conflicted role that relegates them from effectiveness. The Slabshield implies they want to be hanging back and used as mobile cover, which, while a great idea, makes them something of a dead weight in terms of killing power unless the enemy are coming to you (in which case you charge and then lose the covering ability anyway). The high S, T and Wounds suggest they want to be running in and smashing stuff, which they can do only marginally better than equal points of Ogryn, once you factor in Ripper Gun shooting pre-charge.

While, in both of these roles, Bullgryn seem OK, the issue is that they pay for both. If you're playing defensive, they aren't utilising the CC potential, and if you're playing aggressive, then you're not using the covering ability to maximum effect. As such, whichever way you slice it, you're losing some potential that is built into the base cost. You can, of course, swap the Slabshields for Maul+Shield, but then you're paying EVEN more to make them worse at one of those things they originally paid for to make them a bit better at the other. It's not 15ppm for the Maul swap, it's 15ppm+ whatever value one assigns to the Slabshield.

The only time I can see them being used over regular Ogryn is in front of an aggressive buffed (either in-codex or allied) blob, loaded on power axes and melta/flamer. The Bullgryn move up ahead, giving the 4+ cover, and hit a weak target on the enemy front line, opening up the way for the (hopefully relatively intact) blob to hit more valuable targets. Coversely, if the enemy deploy tough units in the front, the Bullgryn tie up that while the blob goes for the weaker elements.

Seems too expensive, though, when those points are another kitted Russ, a Manticore or another blob.

**Perfect Organism**

Seems to me that the way to go with Bullgryn is to pack a bunch of cheap characters into the unit, preferably with low-T, but decent armour saves and plenty of wounds. Inquisitors look especially good for that. Keep the characters at the front, then divert anything which ignores their armour or threatens to ID them to the Bullgryn using LOS!

Take a couple of power-maul guys to take out vehicles, keep the others with slabshields and support them with short-ranged, slow-but-mobile units like punishers, armoured sentinels or pretty much any infantry without a heavy weapon. Maybe even a unit of ogryn with psykers following the bullgryn with their inquisitors and priests, plus a few melta/plasma veteran squads with camo gear to handle really tough targets.

Suddenly, the guard aren't all about sitting back and shooting; they become an aggressive horde, capable of pushing into the midfield while laying down lots of short-range firepower. Maybe not as efficient as lurking at maximum range and hoping to wipe the enemy off the field, but it's a different playstyle and possibly a fun one.

**Unit1126PLL**

Perfect Organism wrote:
Seems to me that the way to go with Bullgryn is to pack a bunch of cheap characters into the unit, preferably with low-T, but decent armour saves and plenty of wounds. Inquisitors look especially good for that. Keep the characters at the front, then divert anything which ignores their armour or threatens to ID them to the Bullgryn using LOS!

Take a couple of power-maul guys to take out vehicles, keep the others with slabshields and support them with short-ranged, slow-but-mobile units like punishers, armoured sentinels or pretty much any infantry without a heavy weapon. Maybe even a unit of ogryn with psykers following the bullgryn with their inquisitors and priests, plus a few melta/plasma veteran squads with camo gear to handle really tough targets.

Suddenly, the guard aren't all about sitting back and shooting; they become an aggressive horde, capable of pushing into the midfield while laying down lots of short-range firepower. Maybe not as efficient as lurking at maximum range and hoping to wipe the enemy off the field, but it's a different playstyle and possibly a fun one.

This is what I was thinking as well. An attached cadre of good-armor-save characters (such as an IH supplement to attach 3 techmarines and one MotF) can also add to the durability and combat punch, as well as leadership.

**Comrade**

If ogryns carried Power Axes rather then power mauls, they would be OK imo... nut no, they have AP4 power weapons.... which no one ever takes unless they are forced to.

Ogryns are over priced for the utility they provide, maybe at 30 points base they would be alright

**kir44n**

I think one of the Ogryns core problems is that they are too specialized for their costs. Against certain enemies (orks, small to medium nids, Firewarriors that somehow didn't kill the ogryn before reaching close combat) they can do well. The problem is that means they are ill-suited for TAC lists due to their very specific nature. This doesn't mean they won't be good for fun games against above mentioned lists...but I don't think they'll be featured in the standard netbuilds we'll see in a few months time.

On the otherhand, I see a pretty good future for the reworked Deathstrike. I need a few more games to get a more accurate opinion, but it has been working well so far.

**Perfect Organism**

Comrade wrote:
Ogryns are over priced for the utility they provide, maybe at 30 points base they would be alright

Pretty much. An ogryn has around six times the survivability of a guardsman, six times the firepower under ideal circumstances, but eight times the cost. Their main advantage is that they let you take a 300 point infantry unit which is actually practical to move around, but then they slapped a 100 point additional cost on top of that and made them fairly useless. It's a huge shame, because I really like the new ogryn models; at 35 points each, I'd take some. At 30 points each, I'd take as many as I could.

Maybe we'll get a dataslate formation which gives them some extra special rules. Giving them Furious Charge back and adding Feel No Pain would redeem them, although that seems like a lot to hope for.

**UlrikDecado**

I like idea of Bullgryn as shock assault troop supported by priest and commisar. Delivered by chimera. Its just no option seems ideal to me. Make falanx with shield? Good, but the weapons itself are...mediocre. OK, drop falanx, use brute shields and...power mauls? OK, it looks fluffy, but power mauls are...mediocre at best. Damn! Why I cant have Bullgryns with axes or, better, power fists? And not deliberately "OK, this is good, so lets make them not so strong" solutions..

**Ailaros**

Perfect Organism wrote:Pretty much. An ogryn has around six times the survivability of a guardsman, six times the firepower under ideal circumstances, but eight times the cost.

They gain other benefits as well. For example, they don't care about flamers, or blast weapons (like these wyverns everyone is raving about). They also have much better force concentration - it's going to be much more possible for 10 ogryn to get all their attacks in than 50 guardsmen. They also get hammer of wrath, which guardsmen never do, and they also have the ability to smush vehicles in close combat in a way where you'd have to give all those guardsmen krak grenades to counter for (so, there's where a lot of the points are made up).

The idea that having concentrated guardsmen has no value is only true if concentration has not value.

schadenfreude wrote:Or just have conscripts and a primaris man the gun. Turkey comes on and roasts a half dozen or so conscripts who cares the turkey can't snipe the primaris. Next turn the squad passes bring it down on a 9.

Lol.

Sir? Sir! Are you sure it's safe for us to be manning the quad gun, sir? Wouldn't that make us pretty big targets sir?

Sorry, can't hear you from all the way back here. Just keep manning the gun, conscript.

**Ratius**

Quick Q: When taking Pask do you have to pay for the basic tank commander first and then Pask i.e. 30+40 points? Or just Pask at 40?

**Trickstick**

Ratius wrote:
Quick Q: When taking Pask do you have to pay for the basic tank commander first and then Pask i.e. 30+40 points? Or just Pask at 40?

Pask is an upgrade to a normal tank commander, which needs to be purchased first.

**Mavnas**

kir44n wrote:
I think one of the Ogryns core problems is that they are too specialized for their costs. Against certain enemies (orks, small to medium nids, Firewarriors that somehow didn't kill the ogryn before reaching close combat) they can do well. The problem is that means they are ill-suited for TAC lists due to their very specific nature. This doesn't mean they won't be good for fun games against above mentioned lists...but I don't think they'll be featured in the standard netbuilds we'll see in a few months time.

On the otherhand, I see a pretty good future for the reworked Deathstrike. I need a few more games to get a more accurate opinion, but it has been working well so far.

Hammer Hand and rad grenade inquisitor bumps them up to S8. At that point they're really more of a vehicle killer or Multi-wound T5 or less killer. Though, at the cost for the unit, I'm not sure they're cost effective.

**Perfect Organism**

Ailaros wrote:
The idea that having concentrated guardsmen has no value is only true if concentration has not value.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think that concentration is worthless... just that it's not worth anything like the cost they are charging. Not just in points, but also in lost range, inability to use FRFSRF, lack of special weapons and vulnerability to instant death.

Like I said, at five points less per model or with a few decent special rules they would be pretty good.

**Valhalla130**

Looking forward to reading more of this thread. I last played my IG around 2000. And I always lost with them. I'm looking forward to learning how to build a list and how to use that list to its full advantage.

**Happygrunt**

Played my first game with AM today. Was 1500 points against an assault themed CSM army. Slaanesh/nurgle with lots of spawn and maulerfiends. Here are my thoughts:

The chimera nerf meant I was out of my tanks more often. This meant that I was moving in pairs and having my vets cover each other with the Chimeras providing support. Chimeras were acting as excellent APC.

Primaris pskyer + Executioner = awesome. Rerolling to hit on plasma cannons is a thing of beauty.

The new orders are FANTASTIC. Because I had to get out of my tanks to make use of all my guns, I found my self using shoot and run and ignore cover a lot. The precision shot order was also rad, although less effective than I would like.

CCS with three snipers, a banner and a boltgun with stealth was a good cheap CCS. But them behind an Aegis with a quadgun and had them anchor my backfield. Banner saved a couple times. Will probably try a different load out with more "punch" next time, although the banner will probably stay.

Overall, I am happy with the new book. Obviously, with this being my first outing, there are something that will change. I will probably be re-working my HQ slots to include command tanks, but I am very excited to see more of what I can do with this book.

**alarmingrick**

So if one were to run mech vets and not platoons, what besides primaris psykers would you put with them? Would it be worth the points to put priests too? I can see the benefit, but points wise the psykers are pushing the squads almost too high. Thoughts?

**Perfect Organism**

alarmingrick wrote:
So if one were to run mech vets and not platoons, what besides primaris psykers would you put with them? Would it be worth the points to put priests too? I can see the benefit, but points wise the psykers are pushing the squads almost too high. Thoughts?

I wouldn't want to give veterans a priest, because that gives them fearless, which prevents them from going to ground.

Commissars don't add much once you already have the psyker's Ld. but I guess they will make extra sure that the unit doesn't break and add another bolter to the squad. Not really enough to justify the cost IMO.

Techpriests can keep the squad's transport alive a little longer and hop over to nearby tanks to buff them up. Could be a good choice if you don't have dedicated infantry support units for your tanks.

Inquisitors are a good alternative to psykers, but it's probably overkill to have both in one unit.

I'd generally stick with just putting one character in each veteran squad. They are too delicate to invest a massive number of points in. If I did go with two characters, the second one would probably be an enginseer.

**Razerous**

I'm struggling to find a place for my Psykers. I have about 590 for troops (& an optional CCS) in a 1500pt army.

Can a Pysker use a LOS power on the unit or vehicle he is embarked with - as I've read on the FAQ that Pyskers cannot make use of the fire points for LOS power (except witchfire powers).

How many mechvets and/or Infantry platoon units would be suitable in 1500pts?

**Perfect Organism**

Razerous wrote:
Can a Pysker use a LOS power on the unit or vehicle he is embarked with - as I've read on the FAQ that Pyskers cannot make use of the fire points for LOS power (except witchfire powers).

Yes. Main rulebook, page 67, upper right, under the heading 'declare target'.

Razerous wrote:
How many mechvets and/or Infantry platoon units would be suitable in 1500pts?

There's no easy answer, I'm afraid. I'd generally recommend anywhere from a quarter to half your points on troops. Maybe one platoon (~45 guys) and a couple of veteran squads. Depends how infantry-heavy you want to play.

**Biophysical**

Still brainstorming about Bullgryn. What about 3 with hammer/shield upgrades and a priest in a Taurox or Chimera? 215 for the dudes plus transport cost. Flat out turn 1, get out turn 2, charge turn 3. You go after tanks and support units. You can soak a bit of fire, and if you actually get through you ought to do some damage.

**Razerous**

Okay so here's my quandary with orders & Psykers. Psykers need to be on foot to benefit the best targets (Basilisk, leman russes, blobs) & orders only effect foot-based infantry.

However mobility is key & that is attained via either dedicated transport or a 6-man troop & vendettas.

So far I'm considering a hybrid approach, as even a minute sized platoon provides 3 units + that value 5man (& options for SWS's).

Plus orders either need quantity for IS (massed HWS/lasguns) or lots of specials. Could I rely on hard hitting CCS & PCS that buff themselves. CAN they buff themselves (via the command vehicle rule)??

**Paradigm**

Biophysical wrote:
Still brainstorming about Bullgryn. What about 3 with hammer/shield upgrades and a priest in a Taurox or Chimera? 215 for the dudes plus transport cost. Flat out turn 1, get out turn 2, charge turn 3. You go after tanks and support units. You can soak a bit of fire, and if you actually get through you ought to do some damage.

The problem here is that you're talking in the region of 250 points, and there's not a huge change they're going to make that back on tanks and support units. You can't hurt AV14, so Land Raiders and Monoliths are out (the tanks closest to recouping the cost), and support units tend to be fairly cheap. If you hit something like a tank squadron or can run a huge infantry unit off the board, it might be worth it (ironically, IG are the best target here) but otherwise you're not going to make a big enough dent to be worth it.

That said. this might be useful in a mass-mech charge, where you've got half a dozen Chimera/Taurox flat-outing to unload vets and a CCS in the enemy line. Rather than charging the biggest, baddest target, throw them at the biggest threat (cc or shooting) to the vets to tie it up or kill it. Kind of an aggressive-defence tactic.

**Mr.Omega**

Creedstar:

Mr.Omega wrote:
HQ

Company Command Squad -183
-Creed
-Officer of the Fleet
-Camo Cloaks for the Vets
-Regimental Standard

Cypher, Lord of the Fallen -190

Primaris Psyker, Lvl1 x3 -150

Troops

Infantry Platoon -590
4x Infantry Squads with Meltaguns
Lascannon HWS
Lascannon HWS
Lascannon HWS
PCS, 1x Flamer

Veteran Squad -101
-Bolter
2x Plasma Gun
Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad -101
-Bolter
2x Plasma Gun
Heavy Flamer

Fast Attack

Vendetta Gunship - 170

Vendetta Gunship - 170

Heavy Support

Wyvern

Wyvern

Wyvern

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This list is probably hard to read, so allow me to elaborate.

Each Primaris Psyker goes in one of the Lascannon HWS, giving them LD9 and dishing out Prescience each turn. Creed then gives them the most suitable order, which will probably be Fire On My Target or Bring It Down! most of the time to massively amp their fire against MC's and vehicles. The orders are reliable thanks to the conferred LD9 on each HWS and Creed's special rule that lets him re-roll all failed orders.

To avoid being alpha-striked into oblivion, there are two counters I can employ - the first, is simply to concede giving out fire on the first turn with the HWS and walking them on, or out of cover, depending on the board. The second is to form a wall of Wyverns in front of the Creedstar to inhibit LOS/give cover saves. If a group of Wave Serpents wipes the Wyverns first turn, big deal - I lose only 195 points, and they no longer get the anti-penetrate gimmick when I retaliate with Vendettas, the Cypher blob and the Creedstar.

If I get first turn, then the Wyverns put out a blistering anti-infantry salvo, or at the very least force my opponent to reconsider his deployment and use of infantry.

Cypher goes with the Infantry Squad blob of 40 and outflanks them to grab backfield/midfield objectives, be a distraction and lay down additional AT/AMC/Anti-Infantry and be a pain in the ass. Unless the blob gets wiped in a single turn by an assault, Cypher can Hit and Run with an 83% chance of success to shoot several meltaguns and his own fire into the aggressors - the blob automatically regroups if routed because of ATSKNF, and even if they get routed Cypher's initiative 8 should make fleeing relatively easy.

The 40 man blob has a constant 5+ cover save in the open because Cypher confers Shrouded, and in even the crappiest cover you get 3+ cover- in hard cover, that's a 2+. MC's should at least take a wound against Cypher's attacks, or will have to challenge one of the weakling Sergeants before the Hit and Run.

The Veteran Squads go in the Vendettas, and sit there until either their fire is desperately needed, or they need to snatch an objective. They're designed to fulfill either role by blasting more holes in the hard stuff, and wiping light infantry off such objectives. If somehow, an alpha strike gets dangerously close to the Creedstar, a PCS with flamer and these Vets immediately move to deal with it, the latter by having their skimmers hover on to the board and disembark- easy, since Creed will be near my board edge.

To better all of the reserve based antics, the Officer of the Fleet can add to my reserves rolls.

Reposting from Army Lists.

Edit: Just realized you can't shove the Vets into the Vendetta, I need to rethink that bit. Suggestions?

**Stus67**

So is there any point to taking Power Axes? It's 2/3 attacks at AP2 for 15 points, but whoever has it is still going last, which usually means they're dead before they can swing. Still better than a 25 point Power Fist, but I think I might just go back Chainswords because 15 points is too much for a Power Sword.

**ultimentra**

Okay guys, so when taking an Enginseer, what is the best way to take him to the battlefield?

Theres a few options here-

1) In a Chimera attachd to vet squad or IS
This is great for giving PoTMS for a nearby Leman Russ. But not much else. He only repairs on a 5+, meaning that taking the repair option over PoTMS is really only viable when you don't have a target for the ability.

2) On foot with 3 Servitors in tow.
This makes him vulnerable, but it gives you options. If a Leman Russ gets a weapon knocked off, or a nearby tank has 1 hull point left, you may want to go for the repair which is now a 2+. But, he is slower this way so any fast tanks you might want to keep up with may be out of range of PoTMS.

I am kind of leaning towards the first option at the moment, because if you get a crew shaken or stunned result, which is 50/50 without AP modifiers, PoTMS can help with that, allowing the tank to fire its main gun at least with full BS. It can also boost the CC ability of that vet squad in a pinch.

What do you guys think?

EDIT-
3rd option) With a couple servitors in the back lines giving PoTMS to a Manticore or two for shooting two missiles and repairing any damage.. Or did this tactic get dismissed as illegal?

**Ailaros**

I don't know if techpriests are worth it JUST for PotMS. On the one hand, it fails over 1/4 of the time, and on the other hand, well, I don't know if it's worth 40 points just to have the chance to give a russ split-fire. I feel like you've got to have a reasonable chance to run out and repair something to make it all that worthwhile.

70 points for a fix a hull point on a 2+ doesn't seem that bad. He's going to be fragile, of course, but he's also going to be very cheap, and if you can give your opponent more important things to shoot at, then he'll survive longer. Plus, a russ is rather big, which means a techpriest and at least a couple of servitors could hide completely out of LOS behind one.

They'd be especially useful to hide behind a baneblade too.

---
And no, PotMS doesn't let a vehicle shoot one weapon twice, nor does it overrule the manticore's limited amunition special rule. Specific trumps general, which means a rule specific to just the manticore trumps something from the special rules section of the rulebook.
---

Also, another small thing. Veteran sergeants can now take bolters, and the price for them went down to a measly 1 point. Especially given that everything else got 5+ points more expensive, is there something worthwhile to sergeants with bolters?

I mean, we're in 6th ed, so they DO get precise shot...

**Happygrunt**

Ailaros wrote:

---

Also, another small thing. Veteran sergeants can now take bolters, and the price for them went down to a measly 1 point. Especially given that everything else got 5+ points more expensive, is there something worthwhile to sergeants with bolters?

I mean, we're in 6th ed, so they DO get precise shot...

They do, but one shot is just going to be LOS or ignored because it is a bolter.

I think that is a "trap" choice. Those 1 point upgrades add up and it adds very little to the squad.