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I'll go ahead and make the prediction that what you'll see coming out of the codex in tournament lists is lists that abuse the ability of orders and psychic powers to negate or completely ignore specific aspects of the game such as rolling to hit.

Being able to mass boost your army into having a equivalent ballistic skill of 5 on base troops with rerolls , ignoring cover etc..

Is really the way I see it going. It's such a powerful mechanic to work around. That along with being able to "break " your FOC, something Imperial Guard already was good at it is kind of powerful.

They're now the most shooty gunline , maybe Tau can outgun them? Maybe?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Ailaros was making the claim he (pask) was broken... I made counter points why he was good, but definitely expensive for what you got.

Omega decided to play alter ego on Ailaros behalf and ignore the context of my posts and assume I was saying Pask was rubbish when I clearly was advocating that he was cost appropriately and a situational character and not an auto include or broken.

He then got offended for no real reason when I an Mavnas asked him to remedy his terrible quoting convention, all the while he posts:

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

Basically telling me I don't have the right to my opinion in his opinion lol.

Oh and he accused someone else of whining.

@Omega, you have some good points but I feel you aren't respecting other posters opinions. Just quote them and make a counter claim, there's no need to pick over every line and tell others they can or can't share or to get personal.

Well, first of all, let's address the fact that you've essentially made this post to avoid refuting what I've said. Whilst I find it most satisfactory that it reads "I concede", the way in which you've chosen to avoid having said that is pretty adorable to watch.

You directly implied Pask was a failure, which I would equate to calling it rubbish.

Now, your personal complaints:
1) I answered Mavnas by saying I was quoting you.
2) You have got the ass on that quote so backwards it is unreal. Please re-read it. You were trying to trivialise the point you were making to discourage someone to refute you. I was merely pointing out that with a post like that you are not avoiding scrutiny.

It does not in any way imply I don't respect your opinion, or want you to stop speaking it. In fact, I want you to speak it. Instead of attempting to shut down the value of my opinion and using that as an excuse to not answer it- that is not respecting an opinion.
3) Because, well, that's exactly what it was?

4) I analyse every line to answer every point thoroughly because I see anything else as poor conduct in a debate- if not, I usually state what or where I concede. It's also so people can't misconstrue the same points in a lump of text so easily.

And yes, I probably have a persecution complex. So I personally apologise for my ranty parts last night to people in this thread. Is that sufficient?

Meh, no matter how good your lasguns are, they're not hurting anything T7 or above or doing anything to any vehicle except with your special weapons.

Even at BS4.5 (no, 75% is not 83%, though it's close) you're still doing S3 AP - hits and you will have issues with concentrating your firepower if your enemy has template weapons to force your blobs to be more spread out. The army is very versatile, but you're still limited to one order per unit, and really not even that if the enemy has long range guns to knock out your command squads.

I think some people will make excellent use of all the options available, and other people will overinvest in support or build armies whose parts don't work well together and flop horribly. I feel like this IG codex require a lot better coordination between your various squads and support chars than slapping a few grav guns on some bikes and charging towards the enemy.

In a game of odds, the person who can tip the odds the hardest through manipulation or strategy wins. It's why people gravitate towards units or "deathstars" if you want to call them that, that do not rely on chance because the odds are in your favor and you've removed the fundamental mechanic of the game from the equation for that particular unit or army. The fundamental strategy of every army in Warhammer 40k is to have better odds than your opponent has and negating chance.

Anything that manipulates that aspect of the game is "powerful" or "good" or "positive" or whatever adjective you want to use that decrees it to be a positive outcome or view.

When ever you play the game you are playing ultimately a game of chance, it's a fundamental part of the game. Manipulating that is what you do as a player, any time you can manipulate things into being more favorable or eliminate the portion of the game that is 'chance" increases your ability to win. The AM now has a lot of abilities that increase it's ability to manipulate chance that makes it stronger as army now , manipulation of that is going to be a key aspect stronger builds.

Or put simply. " You're leaving nothing to chance".

Hollismason wrote:
Or put simply. " You're leaving nothing to chance".

Because;

The Emperor Protects

Played a 2k team game yesterday. I am beginning to think the AM book has a lot of "trap" choices. What I mean is, there are a LOT of upgrades that sound really good, but it means that my CCS ended up around 200 points.

Yeah CCS very quickly can become very expensive. They do have some nice built in Combo's though with Aquila , Master of Ordinance, and Preferred Enemy. It's unfortunate that CCS is so expensive but I generally think of them as just one "character" I don't know why. Anyway yeah, having a CCS in a Transport with a Enginseer, Aquila, MoO is pretty great.

I mean if you want to spend all the points on the CCS buff bubble, sisters would allow you to add banners that either make everyone fearless (and give counter-attack?) or give +1 attacks and reroll a few types of leadership tests, both in a 12".

My problem with this approach is that trying to put this many units in a buff bubble is just asking for templates to be lobbed in your direction because they will probably scatter onto something.

Mavnas wrote:
I mean if you want to spend all the points on the CCS buff bubble, sisters would allow you to add banners that either make everyone fearless (and give counter-attack?) or give +1 attacks and reroll a few types of leadership tests, both in a 12".

My problem with this approach is that trying to put this many units in a buff bubble is just asking for templates to be lobbed in your direction because they will probably scatter onto something.

Although, I'd prefer my Guardsmen to have the option of going to ground, so the magic flag allowing rerolls to moral checks is preferable to just being Fearless. Plus, if I took a Sisters command squad, I'd have to take at least one other squad of Sisters...no thanks.

200 points for a CCS, Kurov's Aquila, Company Standard, and a Chimera to hide them in is pricey, but I suspect it will be worth it. I'm playing my first game with the new codex tonight, so I'll have a better idea soon.

Please take a Master of Ordinance and tell us how that worked out for you. Also with the Aquila the Chimera itself get's Preferred Enemy as well which isn't to shabby.

Yeah, the fearless banner is the cheap one since it comes on an HQ choice, the sisters command squad banner... I want to like it, I really do, but it's just so many points to be able to think about taking it.

Do inquisitor servo skulls reduce MoO scatter? Without those I'd imagine the MoO is only good against concentrations of force like a bunch of units clustered in a buff bubble.

Mavnas wrote:
...I'd imagine the MoO is only good against concentrations of force like a bunch of units clustered in a buff bubble.

Even if this is correct (and it may be, I really don't know), it's still probably worth 20 points. After all, when you face another IG army or even the odd Tau gun line, this could be an all star and having the edge in the semi-mirror match at such a low point cost is very valuable.

I don't see why they wouldn't.

Okay new tactic to bring up. The Alpha Strike.

What's a good starting basis for an Alpha Strike Army?

The Cheap Route :
Primaris 50
Primaris 50

Manticore 170
Manticore 170
3 x Wyvern 195

Minimum Point Total : 635
2D3 ST 10 AP 4 , that with Prescience Reroll hit
12 ST 4 Twin Linked, Shred

Or
Expensive Route
2 Primaris Psykers 100
2 Basilisks 250
1 Manticore 170
3 Wyverns 195
Total : 715

Total : 2 St 9 AP 3 w/ minimum range of 36
1-3 ST 10 AP 4 with minimum range 24
12 St 4 Ignore cover, shredding, T
Basically what is the best combination that you can get out of indirect fire, alpha strikingwith ordinance with Imperial Guard for less that 800 points which is more efficient? Add in a gunline with H. Weapon Mortars and be near a CCS? 2 CCS w/ MoO and near a Aquila? Are master of ordance worth it if you have two CCSs with them?

honestly... with over 140 regular GI, 6+ HWTeams, and some tanks thrown in (almost maxxed out pskers preists and inquisitors)... people have been having a lot of trouble with target saturation...

as well as underestimating all that st 3 shooting and CCW...

case in point, just played some nids, and the conscripts and GI blob were walking through tyrants like butter... sure, I need 4's or even 5's to hit, and 6's to wound... but i get to reroll them ALL, and there is a feth ton of tem.

+ all I need is one wound from a psyker/INQ guy to get through (and with the choice of force axe, sword, and mace, odds are at least ONE wound will get through) where as all my casualties are easy to shrug off.

I have been finding that the HWT's combine with precience and orders are just owning the table... sure they die to a lightbreese, but that means the rest of the army is unmolested.

it seems to be, that if I get first turn, I auto win, even with only 6 HWTS.... they just wreck everything with re rolls to hit and wound/pen or ignore cover. Since i only have 4 senior officer orders, I actually plan on losing two HWT's at least, so it takes a lot of fire power to actually get rid of these guys.

which again, is great, my CCS's with snipers, bolter, and MOO have been untouched last few games because they just dont get shot at like the blobs/HWT's do.

I played my first game last night with a 30 man guard squad with yarrick, a priest, prymaris psyker and inquisitor with all 3 gernades. It was one of the funniest things i have seen. st4 4 guards men tore a bike squad apart. with the 4++ rerol save in Close combat auto hitting and wounding on 4's. Hammerhands makes that squad scary.

Codex psyker blob, I am le sad.

Yeah, the Alpha Striking Imperial Guard of Death gun line seems like it's going to not be a very pleasant army to play against. Especially first turning it with Coteaz.

Just trying to figure out the best 1000 point gun line to buy... with support from CCS or maybe a Tank Commander?

Well I play iron warriors cants as space marines and I am allying in an AM penal colony and I realized how much more deadly a bike chaptermaster is in a blob. Basically he starts in the blob and you use Yarrick to give the unit fire on my target testing on ld10 (CM) and you prescience the whole unit and now you have a twin linked strength 10 AP1 ignores cover barrage with unlimited range, and with SM as primary you can double this by adding a second chapter master. Even with IG as secondary your getting up to 13 scoring units per platoon if you want, and you can get 4 storm trooper squads in one platoon. then with vehicle squads... and then.. and then... You get my point. IG as secondary may as well by primary, so allying with SM gets you CM which are better then any commissar or priest and basically come with their own turn 1 deathstrike missile that is easily buffed. Choose white scars CT and now your blob and conscripts have HnR

yeah... IG as allies has a huge amount of potential, as you basically still get acess to 100% of the codex even as allies since the squadrons pretty much nullify the 1 slot choice restriction.

ORDNANCE, ITS MASTER OF ORDNANCE, NOT ORDINANCE!!!!

Ahem...sorry, it has to go out...could not hold it any longer...

For the CCS, my way is cheap, but effective way. So no extra relics that burn with my T3 guys. But yes to Master of ORDNANCE...yeah...better...I give him as friend Mortar team so CCS can be digged out of LOS and carapace, so the bodies hold a little longer. Maaaaaybe vox, because mine CCS should shout orders, provide small target and drop hilariously strong and scattering pieplates. No heroic charges, no challenges and when such challenge comes, its time for Master of OrdNANCE to stoically accept it and draw his big knife and fight for the Colonel.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
ORDNANCE, ITS MASTER OF ORDNANCE, NOT ORDINANCE!!!!

I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.

This would be why my opponents are angry I insist they pay my water bill when I play them.

I just played the closest game of 40k in my life! It was IG vs Tyranids.

A unit of 30 guardsmen killed 2 blobs of gaunts in close combat, and a carnifex with shooting. The priest and psycker made them the ultimate tanking unit. If it wasn't for the fact that the tyranid prime was near unkillable to the guards attacks the guard would have annahilated them.

The warlord traits are so awesome. The IG player had draconian discipline and in a shootout that ability is invaluable, better than stubborn.

The game ended with the IG warlord's command squad as well as the platoon command squad killing a hive guard blocking the final objective. If the game hadn't ended that round then the Nids carnifex and prime would have won it.

 daedalus wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
ORDNANCE, ITS MASTER OF ORDNANCE, NOT ORDINANCE!!!!

I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.

That's why the master of ordnance can't move and shoot at the same time. He's too busy filling out the artillery support request form in triplicate.

Hollismason wrote:Yeah, the Alpha Striking Imperial Guard of Death gun line seems like it's going to not be a very pleasant army to play against. Especially first turning it with Coteaz.

Yeah, I really hope the new guard doesn't turn into leafblower, except with platoons hiding behind an aegis instead of mechvets hiding behind an aegis.

I could see a Ravengard or White Scars Space Marine Bike list combined with Imperial Guard as being absolutely brutal when allied in. Mobile, able to get in combat and get out, Grav Guns, Commander that is Nigh indestructible etc.. the mobility and toughness is what's going to come into play really though. Grav Guns are excellent ; plus hit and run ; or scouting ahead on first turn.

Seem's it worked really well with a Gun Line, Manticore list. There's probably a Sweet Spot for the points on bikes but being able to take up to 3 ish bike squads is pretty nasty.

What about us that want to stay more in the Mech role? Priest, Commissar and Psyker discussion has been focused mostly on Foot/blob roles.
How does the "revised" Techpriest Enginseer fit with the mobile IG/AM lists of the new dex? Or do they?

Right now I'm thinking of adding a couple of the TPE and a couple of PP to my list. With the increase in the Chimera price tag and drop in the Vet squads
they kind of wash. But that still leaves ~100 points (mol) to come up with from a list that usually can be tight point wise anyway. Does anyone else see a
big plus, or any viable ideas about Mech IG? Are the TPE, PP and Astropath of any help to the Mech lists?

Price jump of Vendettas hurts Mech quite a bit, imo. Stronghold Assault leaves blobguard and gunline with plenty of options, but to match the mobility of mech you sort of HAVE to take Vendettas for AA. That said, this opens up a position for the Officer of the Fleet. That aside, Techpriests for the Chimeras have some potential. Keep them moving, add a Pfist model to three squads, HF one squad and Multi-Laser another with PotMS. Etc.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Price jump of Vendettas hurts Mech quite a bit, imo. Stronghold Assault leaves blobguard and gunline with plenty of options, but to match the mobility of mech you sort of HAVE to take Vendettas for AA. That said, this opens up a position for the Officer of the Fleet. That aside, Techpriests for the Chimeras have some potential. Keep them moving, add a Pfist model to three squads, HF one squad and Multi-Laser another with PotMS. Etc.

Plus if you run Pask/tank commander I feel the TPE could help keep them around and PotMS shenanigans. TPE could help keep vets mobile. The Vendetta hit we knew was coming. At this point I'm just biting the bullet and budgeting in the price of 2.

 Ailaros wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
ORDNANCE, ITS MASTER OF ORDNANCE, NOT ORDINANCE!!!!

I can't speak for YOUR officers, but mine are exclusively demanding that the cannons shell the enemy with municipal bills. EXCLUSIVELY.

That's why the master of ordnance can't move and shoot at the same time. He's too busy filling out the artillery support request form in triplicate.

I need a Futurama Hermes Conrad miniature for a MoO now.

In regard to mech guard:

Well a pair of CCS with OoTF pretty much handles your AA IMO.

-2 to their reserve rolls is CRIPPLING to heavy flier builds like cron air.

Then you only need 2 vendettas rather then 3, so theirs your missing points.