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2014/06/14 18:57:21
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Stannis is a religious fanatic. With Melisandre breathing down his neck, I fear he he might try to force the religion of R'hlor on the north unless Jon can restrain him and counter balance Melisandres influence.
Have you read the books this far and beyond ?
Spoiler:
IIRC thats pretty much what happens?
Yes, I've read all of Dance with Dragons and parts of Winds of Winter.
Spoiler:
I know he's trying things the Northern way, placating the Northern Lords, earning the trust and allegiance of the mountain clans, and respecting Northern traditions ("the Old Ways") by not burning Weirwood trees etc.
But Melisandre is still around and still a threat. If she whispers enough poison into his ear then she may feth things up between him and the North.
Let's not forget, in the words of Ser Davos Seaworth (a self confessed atheist) " she's a foreigner preaching a foreign religion" and "a mother of demons".
2014/06/14 20:15:56
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
No he sold his soul for power and a way to claim his right to the throne.
But that still means he has sold his soul to a god that needs plenty of blood sacrfices - do you think that adpoting that religion is a good or bad thing? It means there is a price to pay when /if he takes the throne, in blood.
Well they tried to sell his daughter to the lannisters. So they had it coming.
Do they actually say that in the show - I thought he burned them because they woud not accept the new God - ins't that what Stannis and the Onionm Knight discuss just before the sacrifice?
@ Shadow Captain - the Red Priestess does tend to get her way?
Spoiler:
Doesn't she burn lots of wildlings and make then take the new religion as their own?)
Plus Stanis wife is a devout believer
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 20:16:44
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
No he sold his soul for power and a way to claim his right to the throne.
But that still means he has sold his soul to a god that needs plenty of blood sacrfices - do you think that adpoting that religion is a good or bad thing?
Well they tried to sell his daughter to the lannisters. So they had it coming.
Do they actually say that in the show - I thought he burned them because they woud not accept the new God - ins't that what Stannis and the Onionm Knight discuss just before the sacrifice?
@ Shadow Captain - the Red Priestess does tend to get her way?
Spoiler:
Doesn't she burn lots of wildlings and make then take the new religion as their own?)
Plus Stanis wife is a devout believer
The show hasn't been really fair to Stannis. In the book you understood why he was doing this. You saw his good parts, you saw how well he administrated, and you see that he was far better than Renly ever could be.
But lets not forget. That his hand.... Davos. Is a Smuggler. He looks past their rankings and what society deems as proper. He goes around them. They have kept that side to him very well. They have shown him to be resolute and very kind to his daughter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 20:23:47
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/06/14 20:21:43
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......but now I think they may go down the book route and ruin her character :(
I would agree that Stanis in the show has never succeeded at anything - and you can;t really see why he is respected so easily.....he seems a pawn in the game of the Red Priestess?
But in both book and show his choice to fully embrace the new god is not likely to end well?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......but now I think they may go down the book route and ruin her character :(
I would agree that Stanis in the show has never succeeded at anything - and you can;t really see why he is respected so easily.....he seems a pawn in the game of the Red Priestess?
But in both book and show his choice to fully embrace the new god is not likely to end well?
Well he did succeed he defeat his brother. And he almost took kings landing. Yes he almost did, the wildfire only destroyed the fleet,
The rest of the fleet literally was enough to take kings landing, they would of succeeded too if Tywin did not arrive as early as he did.
He really doesn't embrace it in the book. The man only uses it as a farce to get supporters to his side. He even says in the show. "Eh bs, but whatever."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 20:27:10
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/06/14 20:31:10
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
They haven't done much to show what Stannis has done in the past. His defence of Storms End, his defeat of the Greyjoy's, etc... Stannis is a damn good military commander, and they've alluded to it a few times in the show, but they need to do a better job of showing him being more then just another 2-bit pretender.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2014/06/14 20:38:01
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......but now I think they may go down the book route and ruin her character :(
I would agree that Stanis in the show has never succeeded at anything - and you can;t really see why he is respected so easily.....he seems a pawn in the game of the Red Priestess?
But in both book and show his choice to fully embrace the new god is not likely to end well?
Well he did succeed he defeat his brother.
And he almost took kings landing. Yes he almost did, the wildfire only destroyed the fleet,
The rest of the fleet literally was enough to take kings landing, they would of succeeded too if Tywin did not arrive as early as he did.
He really doesn't embrace it in the book. The man only uses it as a farce to get supporters to his side. He even says in the show. "Eh bs, but whatever."
Yeah but almost and nearly don't count - the show does not show him succeeding really - just increasingly isolated and desperate which is probably an error - my firend (who dislikes Sam as much as I do) does really like him so she is talking me round.................
Again in the show he seems ot be more and more part of the cult - like believing he killed Joffery with the blood magic? If only his wife and Mellisande are left as advisors - then he probably doomed to be a mere puppet in a theocracy.
Also in the last book
Spoiler:
he stupidly wonders off and gets lost in the snow not having taken his "fire Witch" with him
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
That's not exactly how I'd say things go in the last book. I also think in the next one we're going to get another look at his abilities as a commander with the battle that was alluded to.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2014/06/14 20:42:49
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
djones520 wrote: They haven't done much to show what Stannis has done in the past. His defence of Storms End, his defeat of the Greyjoy's, etc... Stannis is a damn good military commander, and they've alluded to it a few times in the show, but they need to do a better job of showing him being more then just another 2-bit pretender.
My favorite bit about him is this bit from the book...
Spoiler:
You have always presumed on my forbearance,” Stannis warned Davos when they were alone. “I can shorten your tongue as easy as I did your fingers, smuggler.”
“I am your man, Your Grace. So it is your tongue, to do with as you please.”
“It is,” he said, calmer. “And I would have it speak the truth. Though the truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys, if you only knew… that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king.” He grimaced. “Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately.”
“Why would you want it, then?” Davos asked him.
“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident."
And spoilers for later on
Spoiler:
Stannis ground his teeth. “It is not my wish to tamper with your rights and traditions. As to royal guidance, Janos, if you mean that I ought to tell your brothers to choose you, have the courage to say so.”
That took Lord Janos aback. He smiled uncertainly and began to sweat, but Bowen Marsh beside him said, “Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?”
“Any of you, I would think. Even the cook.” The look the king gave Slynt was cold.
Lets just face it STannis in the books is quite a badass. He leads on the frontlines. We see how reacts to his troops dying.
HE'S FIGHTING IN THE FRONTLINES SHESH.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/06/14 20:50:19
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
No he sold his soul for power and a way to claim his right to the throne.
But that still means he has sold his soul to a god that needs plenty of blood sacrfices - do you think that adpoting that religion is a good or bad thing? It means there is a price to pay when /if he takes the throne, in blood.
Well they tried to sell his daughter to the lannisters. So they had it coming.
Do they actually say that in the show - I thought he burned them because they woud not accept the new God - ins't that what Stannis and the Onionm Knight discuss just before the sacrifice?
@ Shadow Captain - the Red Priestess does tend to get her way?
Spoiler:
Doesn't she burn lots of wildlings and make then take the new religion as their own?)
Plus Stanis wife is a devout believer
Spoiler:
Acknowledging the Lord of Light as the one true God was the price for safe passage through the Wall. All wildlings who wanted to take refuge on the south side of the Wall were expected to forsake the Old God's by burning effigies, totems, icons etc. A Weirwood branch, a talisman, etc.
The conversions are very much made under duress- entire villages and tribes were fleeing south to escape the advance of the White Walkers, but their flight was checked by the Wall, then they were crushed by Stannis. Accepting the Lord of Light and pledging fealty to Stannis Baratheon was their only hope of escape.
All the Wild kings who refused to forsake the Old God's, accept R'hlor and bend the knee melted back into the Haunted Forest. One of them, "The Weeper" is even gathering together a warband and planning to attack the Wall again, bypassing it by going through "The Bridge of Skulls", a deep gorge and river that goes around the western end of the Wall and connects to the sea.
In the initial attack on the Wall by Mance Rayder's army, the western end of the Wall didn't even see any fighting. Instead, the Nights Watch descended into the gorge and fought the Wildlings on the ground, to stop them passing through the gorge and going around the Wall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/14 20:51:11
2014/06/14 20:51:09
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
I agree, Stannis is a bad ass. I feel bad for him though, he's going to have an unfortunate end, much like Tommen will, and probably a few others who won't exactly deserve it, but will get it to see the story play out to it's conclusion (as I think it will).
Full Frontal Nerdity
2014/06/14 20:59:55
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Disclaimer: I actually like Stannis, I just think he shouldn't trust Melisandre and her Red God. Without Melisandre whispering poison in his ear, he'd make a good (but harsh) king.
No God that spawns shadow demons, @nd demands human sacrifice is a God worthy of worship imo.
How ironic would it be if the White Walkers turned out to be the good guys. They're coming south to save Westeros from the evil Red God and his monsters, shadow demons, dragons etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/14 21:01:44
2014/06/14 21:12:37
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Disclaimer: I actually like Stannis, I just think he shouldn't trust Melisandre and her Red God. Without Melisandre whispering poison in his ear, he'd make a good (but harsh) king.
No God that spawns shadow demons, @nd demands human sacrifice is a God worthy of worship imo.
How ironic would it be if the White Walkers turned out to be the good guys. They're coming south to save Westeros from the evil Red God and his monsters, shadow demons, dragons etc.
Its certainly an interesting idea but i think its more likely that both forces are neither good of evil but like say, the Cthulhu Mythos or the Lord so the Higher Words in Moorcock and the Vorlons and Shadows not good for humnaity, using them as pawns in endless and unwinable wars...
Am I right in thinking that the Valyrians worshiped the Lord of Light before their island blew up (and is apparently still burning)
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I loved Stannis in the book, but I absolutely hate show Stannis. I thought the casting choice for him was all wrong when season 2 started, and the actor hasn't changed my mind since then. He's all wrong to me.
2014/06/15 00:49:13
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
No, he is not.
He is heavily under influence from one, but he himself does not seem to care that much. Do he even ever pray? I mean, privately.
Mr Morden wrote: The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......
What were the differences ? (Not going to watch the show. I cannot take it with me and watch it while in my 30 minutes train from and to Paris!)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: No God that spawns shadow demons, @nd demands human sacrifice is a God worthy of worship imo.
Does that include real life gods?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/06/15 01:09:06
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
No, he is not.
He is heavily under influence from one, but he himself does not seem to care that much. Do he even ever pray? I mean, privately.
No, I think he is but for entirely pragmatic reasons. With Stannis, it's a means to an end - securing the Iron Throne.
Melisandre tells him follow the Lord of Light and you will be King. Burn these people, tear down those idols to the false Westerosi God's, ban the worship of false God's, convert the Wildlings to the worship of R'hlor.
I call him a fanatic because of the things he does. He wants power and the Iron Throne (because it's his forthright and the Law, and justice & law means everything to him), and he thinks that Melisandre and her Red God will give him that. And so, to secure the Iron Throne, he's willing to do whatever it takes, whatever the Red God requires of him and therefore becomes a religious fanatic, even if it means burning his relatives alive and spawning a shadow demon to murder his brother.
Mr Morden wrote: The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......
What were the differences ? (Not going to watch the show. I cannot take it with me and watch it while in my 30 minutes train from and to Paris!)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: No God that spawns shadow demons, @nd demands human sacrifice is a God worthy of worship imo.
Does that include real life gods?
Absolutely.
Though a Shadow Demon for a son would be awesome. Who do I have to shag?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/15 01:10:13
2014/06/15 01:15:10
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
How many religions does that leave available to you ?
The two big ones have that Isaac sacrifice, and the spawning of tons of daemons. Not sure about the third one. It does have tons of gods, so certainly some of them must be okay. Also blue-skinned lady with multiple arms holding swords with collars of severed head and limbs are pretty cool, not to mention that awesome, awesome elephant-headed god.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/06/15 01:33:52
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Alpharius a Walker? They do seem to work behind the "scenes" accomplishing their goals. Alpharius your eye's blue?
Stannis is soon to have a coming to God experience
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2014/06/15 02:14:14
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
No, he is not.
He is heavily under influence from one, but he himself does not seem to care that much. Do he even ever pray? I mean, privately.
Mr Morden wrote: The show has been quite good on Dany, for instance her relationship thus far with her mercenary lover is much better handled than in the book.......
What were the differences ? (Not going to watch the show. I cannot take it with me and watch it while in my 30 minutes train from and to Paris!)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: No God that spawns shadow demons, @nd demands human sacrifice is a God worthy of worship imo.
Does that include real life gods?
In the most recent books Dany turns from being a emergent Queen to:
Spoiler:
a simpering teenager who seems unable to make her own decisions - depsite her previous strength gained from brutal life experiences -she is manipulated and dragged from one bad decision to another, confining her Dragons is a really bad idea and she loses her ability to be ruthless when she needs to be. She is truly, madly and deeply in lust with the mercenary - much more so than in the show where she is still able to act as a Queen and not just desperate to find five mintutes to beg him to drag her back to bed. The recent bit where she plays off him and Ser Jorah was good and should have been how the books handled it. I am hoping that they continue in this vein in the show ...........
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The recent bit where she plays off him and Ser Jorah was good and should have been how the books handled it.
What happened?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/06/15 12:32:14
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Well, as the Mother she already is essentially a goddess to the slaves- play it up like that, only the unworthy will fall prey to the wrath of the Goddess, and that wrath's avatars. If someone's family is found blameless, then they will be blessed by the Goddess for their sacrifice. Perhaps use it as a form of execution to accustom the vindicators to the taste of guilt.
It is a harsh solution to a bad situation- but it would be more in line with the themes of GoT. Plus seeing Dany turn into a truly, truly, outrageous Targaryen before she returns to Westeros would be magnificent.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
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2014/06/15 12:34:01
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Mercnary guy turns up and she likes but its her in the driving seat - so to speak - form the start....so she sleeps with him at a time of her choosing, she does not elevate him and is quick to put him down when he gets out of line - but not enough to put him off... Recent scene had her ask about his supposed talents with women and then "prove it - disrobe"..............following which she sent him to kill the rebel Masters in the other city - but when Jorah see's him emerge smirking from her bedroom, she listens to Jorah and changes her commands - and to make sure that the Merc knows its Jorahs advice she is listening to and taking.......
re the Dragons -
Spoiler:
Confining the symbol and potentiall actuality of her power makes her look weak, makes her doubt herself and does nothing other than make them uncotornllable - the one thats eating people flies away anyway and carries on regardless.- She should have fed captured resistance members to them in the newly opened arena - "If her people want blood - give them blood", but remind them of her power . She would also have had them ready to use with her army against the alliance that froms against her - together with the Unsullied and her Mercs she would have remained unassailable..
Gitzbitah wrote: Well, as the Mother she already is essentially a goddess to the slaves- play it up like that, only the unworthy will fall prey to the wrath of the Goddess, and that wrath's avatars. If someone's family is found blameless, then they will be blessed by the Goddess for their sacrifice. Perhaps use it as a form of execution to accustom the vindicators to the taste of guilt. It is a harsh solution to a bad situation- but it would be more in line with the themes of GoT. Plus seeing Dany turn into a truly, truly, outrageous Targaryen before she returns to Westeros would be magnificent.
Yep
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/15 12:35:08
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
She should have fed captured resistance members to them in the newly opened arena - "If her people want blood - give them blood", but remind them of her power .
She would also have had them ready to use with her army against the alliance that froms against her - together with the Unsullied and her Mercs she would have remained unassailable..
Spoiler:
Those are untrained dragons. Well, not training them was dumb, but she should have worried about that quite a bit earlier, though. Anyhow, as they stand, they could as well start eating Unsullied, which is a sure way to loose a battle (and everything else, really).
Gitzbitah wrote: Well, as the Mother she already is essentially a goddess to the slaves-
Yeah, but not the “angry destructive goddess” kind. More the ”caring, motherly” type.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/06/15 13:06:21
Subject: Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
Dany doesn't know how to train her dragons. She doesn't need to worry about her dragons appearing to be uncontrollable. They ARE uncontrollable. Which is something that the show is addressing.
Spoiler:
That's why Victarion Greyjoy's dragon horn is such a potential game changer.
Most knowledge and lore related to dragons was lost with the fall of the Targaryen dynasty.
Spoiler:
There is speculation that the Faceless Man Jaqen H'gar, using a new identity, is infiltrating The Citadel of Oldtown (Headquarters of the Maester order) to retrieve an ancient Tome of dragon lore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/15 13:09:33
2014/06/16 02:14:04
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
?
