Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If it were a moving template like Purple Sun in Fantasy, it would be even more overpowered. Also, GW represent that kind of attack with random dice anyway, for some reason.

 Daba wrote:
If it were a moving template like Purple Sun in Fantasy, it would be even more overpowered. Also, GW represent that kind of attack with random dice anyway, for some reason.

No I mean, just a simple hell-hound Torrent or Doom-scythe line.

Nothing particularly fancy.

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:
If it were a moving template like Purple Sun in Fantasy, it would be even more overpowered. Also, GW represent that kind of attack with random dice anyway, for some reason.

No I mean, just a simple hell-hound Torrent or Doom-scythe line.

Nothing particularly fancy.

If it was a S7AP- Torrent flamer, or hell, throw AP4 on there, it would be a reasonable weapon.

I think they already had a torrent flamer in the form of the shadow weaver, though didn't they?

Just bring some anti tank. But I'm not sure if it's the right to do... Maybe bring some anti horde? Yeah that sounds like an appropriate solution.

Is my LGS the only one that doesn't complain about it and just devises a plan to beat it and actually manages to do it?
There are still many players that I yet have to defeat. I got even defeated by a Ravenwing player once while having 4x Wave Serpents.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So how do we fix this broken unit? I know the next Eldar codex will nerf them, but that's still a couple years away and until then, what is the right "sportsman" thing to do? Not buy holofield upgrades? Not fire the shield?

The best solution for fixing your serpents is simply not to fire the shield. That makes them merely good rather than super-overpowered and doesn't require you to change any rules or re-write any army lists. You can suggest it to your opponents as a 'house rule' or 'gentleman's agreement' without needing to get everyone to agree to it before they write their lists.

macexor wrote:
Just bring some anti tank. But I'm not sure if it's the right to do... Maybe bring some anti horde? Yeah that sounds like an appropriate solution.

Is my LGS the only one that doesn't complain about it and just devises a plan to beat it and actually manages to do it?
There are still many players that I yet have to defeat. I got even defeated by a Ravenwing player once while having 4x Wave Serpents.

Suggest a way for orks to destroy one.

It's not so much having to destroy the tank, that's not the issue here. The issue is that this is a *transport* that can deal with most *anything*.

I think a Wave Serpent isn't the only thing that this 6 (?) year old codex struggles against. It would be actually easier to name things it doesn't struggle against.
I'm not trying to insult any Ork players here but saying that the WS is the single reason why it cannot fight on an even ground against Eldar doesn't seem right.
And I'm sure that I can easily create a list without a WS that ork players would still have a harsh time with.
On the other hand newer codices (or whatever the plural form is) can fight against it. Some have an easier fight, some a tougher one but it's not an unbeatable thing.

There is also such a thing as allies. While Eldar are using them to strengthen their army, why can't Ork do the same thing?
Either drown him with bodies (6x 30 boyz klaw in each and allied IG blobs 50 man each with some melta bombs) or bring some other nasty units such as Night Scythes.
Eldar also struggle against high AV. Bring as many Battlewagons as possible and get into his face. The only thing you have to watch out for is WK. Just throw at him a 20-30 man fearless boyz squad and laugh at him as he tries to kill them.

Eldar struggle against high AV?

You mean the army with more heavy tank killing options than the emperor himself right?

Although it's true that Eldar have lots of options when it comes to high str weapons (fire dragons, crimson hunter, fire prism, falcon, biright lance war walkers, bright lance anywhere actually, wraithknight, wraithlord, wraithguard, hell even swooping hawks) Eldar tend to heavily rely on their Wave Serpents as their AT and just use WK as a "Land Raider buster" when need comes. Hardly anyone spams all those hight str shots.
And that's what other people can use against those who heavily spam Wave Serpents.
Unless one plays Iyanden but we're talking about spamming Wave Serpents, aren't we?

I think the wave serpent should be dataslated. Then sell the dataslate for 25 bucks a pop. That will fix it, nobody likes dataslates.

And then it's price needs to get jacked up to about 150pts

 Kain wrote:
Eldar struggle against high AV?

You mean the army with more heavy tank killing options than the emperor himself right?

He was talking about orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macexor wrote:
Although it's true that Eldar have lots of options when it comes to high str weapons (fire dragons, crimson hunter, fire prism, falcon, biright lance war walkers, bright lance anywhere actually, wraithknight, wraithlord, wraithguard, hell even swooping hawks) Eldar tend to heavily rely on their Wave Serpents as their AT and just use WK as a "Land Raider buster" when need comes. Hardly anyone spams all those hight str shots.
And that's what other people can use against those who heavily spam Wave Serpents.
Unless one plays Iyanden but we're talking about spamming Wave Serpents, aren't we?

Question mate, when you say your meta is full of people who find ways to deal with the serpent, do you mean that your players cater lists? Because that's a really unique practice and is completely inadequate as an argument.

anyone can bring a land raider knowing their opponent's running serpent spam, but while a LR would excel there, the LR will usually fall flat on its face against just about anything else. How does one build a competitive, non RPS list that deals with wave serpents while still being balanced against MCs and flyers?

Orks have more problems against Land Raiders. They have S7 and 8 shooting in enough numbers to kill WS, but they have a lack of things that crack armour 13 and 14 easily, especially at range.

 ionusx wrote:
I think the wave serpent should be dataslated. Then sell the dataslate for 25 bucks a pop. That will fix it, nobody likes dataslates.

And then it's price needs to get jacked up to about 150pts

It's already 150 points.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

macexor wrote:
Just bring some anti tank. But I'm not sure if it's the right to do... Maybe bring some anti horde? Yeah that sounds like an appropriate solution.

Is my LGS the only one that doesn't complain about it and just devises a plan to beat it and actually manages to do it?
There are still many players that I yet have to defeat. I got even defeated by a Ravenwing player once while having 4x Wave Serpents.

Suggest a way for orks to destroy one.

Err... orks are one of the best armies for dealing with wave serpents. A mob of lootas in a battlewagon can chew through their hull points and the WS can't do much to the battlewagon with it's usual set-up. Even if it gets side shots with it's S 6&7 weapons, it's only going to take off a few hull points, which are easily repaired by the mekboys in the loota mob.

Either reduce the S or make it one use only IMO.

do you mean that your players cater lists?

I suppose you mean tailor? Haven't heard that term yet.

No they don't. I'm (surprisingly) the only player that plays this type of list. All the rest either play Tau, Grav-bike spam, Necron, Daemons, Jetseers etc. Probably now some IG will appear.
Probably the reason I don't annihilate all my opponents is my lack of experience. Could be. I've never had a feeling (while playing against those better players) that I had the upper hand right from the beginning and had them on the ropes. Somehow everyone always has some kind of a counter to my Serpent spam. Another funny thing is that only recently I've started playing there and yet most of the players were already used to my list.
I also had some games where I had a great first and second turn but got outplayed by a better opponent who just played the mission and won.

When it comes to the ways in which I get destroyed by a brute force than it works more or less that way:
Daemons: Screamers/Khorne dogs/FMC get in my face and then wreck me in CC while their troops get objectives. Funny thing is that in all my games against Daemons (4 i think so minimum 20 turns) no one has ever failed a single Grimore test.
Tau: outshoot me although their troops aren't that good. I have to play a rather passive game especially if I get the second turn.
Grav spam: although I have a limited experience with it, it just wrecks me if he gets the first turn
Necrons: just look at JY2's batreps. He has no problems with Eldar
Jetseerstar: the one guy that runs it is just a better player than me. I'm gonna challenge him next time when he will hopefully take his DE.

But when it comes to those older codices like Orks, BA, SW or even GK i don't have such problems. In some cases I even feel bad for them. It seems that no matter what they do, they are gonna get beaten eventually. Or is it because all the better players choose to play "better" armies and leave the "worse" armies mostly to the ones who don't care about winning that much?

All in all i think that against newer codices Eldar aren't (not talking about Jetseer Council here because it is not my cup of tea) that OP as some claim them to be. Most (if not all among newer codices) armies have answers to their threats and that alone should be enough to stop them.

Just get rid of them. JK, i honestly have no idea.

Limited them to 12", one use only or, if they fire the shield, it goes away until the Eldar player's next shooting phase.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Limited them to 12", one use only or, if they fire the shield, it goes away until the Eldar player's next shoot phase.

The shield already goes away if you shoot it. I wouldn't suggest one shot but 12" range seems to be the most common suggestion.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

macexor wrote:
Just bring some anti tank. But I'm not sure if it's the right to do... Maybe bring some anti horde? Yeah that sounds like an appropriate solution.

Is my LGS the only one that doesn't complain about it and just devises a plan to beat it and actually manages to do it?
There are still many players that I yet have to defeat. I got even defeated by a Ravenwing player once while having 4x Wave Serpents.

Suggest a way for orks to destroy one.

Err... orks are one of the best armies for dealing with wave serpents. A mob of lootas in a battlewagon can chew through their hull points and the WS can't do much to the battlewagon with it's usual set-up. Even if it gets side shots with it's S 6&7 weapons, it's only going to take off a few hull points, which are easily repaired by the mekboys in the loota mob.

10 lootas is an average of 20 shots at BS2, which is an average of 7 hits and an average of 2.33 hull points. So your, what, 400 point box of blokieblokes just killed 100 points.

150.

Bear in mind that points to killing ratios aren't really something that make sense without taking into account range/delivery/risk and how good their defences are. Also, not any unit will on average kill it's own points in a turn, and those are generally super specialist or close combat troops.

How many points of rocket boys or zzap guns kill a land raider a turn?

Without the transport the inside (Dire Avengers) is rather useless and can be easily crushed by boyz against whom rending shots aren't effective at all.
So it's at least 200 points. If it wasn't for those Lootas you wouldn't kill the inside.

And now if killing in 1 turn half your cost, especially by a unit that is quite durable, is nothing for you, than I don't know what you actually expect them to do.
I don't expect guided Scatter Walkers to kill 210 points in 1 turn and they are a glass cannon.
Other interesting thing is that 13 Lootas and a Battlewagon with some Big Shootas (weapon-destroyed-proof vehicle) is not even 300 points.

 Daba wrote:
150.

Bear in mind that points to killing ratios aren't really something that make sense without taking into account range/delivery/risk and how good their defences are. Also, not any unit will on average kill it's own points in a turn, and those are generally super specialist or close combat troops.

How many points of rocket boys or zzap guns kill a land raider a turn?

No, he only knocked out about two thirds of a serpent. That is why I said 100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macexor wrote:
Without the transport the inside (Dire Avengers) is rather useless and can be easily crushed by boyz against whom rending shots aren't effective at all.
So it's at least 200 points. If it wasn't for those Lootas you wouldn't kill the inside.

And now if killing in 1 turn half your cost, especially by a unit that is quite durable, is nothing for you, than I don't know what you actually expect them to do.
I don't expect guided Scatter Walkers to kill 210 points in 1 turn and they are a glass cannon.
Other interesting thing is that 13 Lootas and a Battlewagon with some Big Shootas (weapon-destroyed-proof vehicle) is not even 300 points.

Why would you take scatter lasers on something you plan to guide exactly? Isn't the whole point of scatter lasers that you don't need guide because of them? Seems a bit wasteful. 3 War Walkers with 6 bright lances (far surpassed by hornets, sure, but let's pretend they don't exist) with guide should bring any tank low.

That's what I mentioned earlier. My meta is heavy on infantry (be it Broadsides, bikes, Tyranids, FMC, Khorne Dogs, anything and all usually with some kind of a cover save) or lighter vehicles (Venoms, Night Scythes, I don't mention WS cause I'm the only one running them) and I don't need those Bright Lances that much (only against Barges TBH). The only high str shots I have is WK and so far that seems enough. I might change my list depending on future IG lists but so far that's enough.
That's why I take Scatter Lasers. And because I take double Scatter Lasers their shots aren't TL. That's why I need to guide them. And Scatter Lasers are probably better against targets such as Night Scythes. Not mentioning infantry.

Make the Serpent Shield a one use item where if you shoot it once it's gone for the rest of the game. For the points cost of the Wave Serpent this would be a fair nerf.

macexor wrote:
That's what I mentioned earlier. My meta is heavy on infantry (be it Broadsides, bikes, Tyranids, FMC, Khorne Dogs, anything and all usually with some kind of a cover save) or lighter vehicles (Venoms, Night Scythes, I don't mention WS cause I'm the only one running them) and I don't need those Bright Lances that much (only against Barges TBH). The only high str shots I have is WK and so far that seems enough. I might change my list depending on future IG lists but so far that's enough.
That's why I take Scatter Lasers. And because I take double Scatter Lasers their shots aren't TL. That's why I need to guide them. And Scatter Lasers are probably better against targets such as Night Scythes. Not mentioning infantry.

You should average a glance and a pen against night scythes, with 24 twin-linked scatter laser shots. 12 Pulse lasers should average a glance and a pen, but the pen should be more meaningful.

I really don't see the mightiness of the Wave Serpent.
It doesn't have firing ports like the Chimera does but instead it has the nifty shield to throw to make up for it, but they die just fine.
They are an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle, somewhere between an APC and a Tank.)
HIt them with some reasonable anti-tank fire and watch the DA team that survives run for cover.

It's not rocket surgery.

I'm down for the one-shot-per-game rule, personally, along with "Once fired, the defensive portion is gone as well."

Just like that, thing's fixed.

my thought on the shield would be to drop range to 24", make it a simple large blast template that moves from the WS to a point 24" away. Any unit that is partially covered by the path of this blast takes D6 S6 AP- , ignores cover hits.
If firing the shield, no other weapon can fire that turn (it takes up to much of the vehicle's power to use it) and once fired, the shield is gone for good.

Also, take away the option for holofield. The shield should interefere with how a holofield works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or, just abstract the whole thing entirely. keep the defensive posture as normal, drop holofield option.

The shield gives the "assault vehicle" ability to the Wave Serpent (fluff...a burst from the shield hits and disorients enemy troops, allowing the occupants to disembark and conduct an assault under relative safety)

What's wrong with just making it a torrent or flamer template?

Let's not re-invent the wheel here.

Making it one use only retains its strong Alpha, which I think needs to be nerfed. The thing shouldn't be artillery, and most of the range nerfs (or template, or torrent) handle that well.

I am glad to see a clear consensus agrees that its shooting needs a nerf. Clearly.