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 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

There are two types, though, and it looks like one is summoning while the other is presumably about banishing. Let's see how that plays out.

There are few things GW could have done to make me leave. If Unbound is accepted I'm out.

I wonder if 'unbound' lists will still hold certain restrictions of lists in place? Or will I be able to field a 4 chapter master of the apocalypse list, all with shield eternals or gorgon chains and thunder hammers etc?

I actually would never take this, but when it comes to chessed out to the max lists, I would find this one entertaining to watch.

Anyway, hard counter to riptide lists will be pure landraider lists won't they?

Or pure stormraven lists etc.

A full land speeder list would be really good to look at!

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Cant see many tournaments allowing unbound lists.

Please more leaks, I have never been more worried for this hobby, jesus get me more leaks.

Havent played in a year or two and would finally be able to start again soon but now as it is, what fun would I find bringing my Black Templars to the shop when I would probably be playing people spamming fecking flyers or lightning terminators or Hive tyrants or Trygons or Monoliths..... where would the fun be in that? For them of course, for me, feck no.

People wont be making unbound lists for fun, they will be making them to not lose a bloody game.

I don't imagine Unbound will feature too highly in pick up games either.

It's funny, most people jump to the crazy broken lists that could be made. My first thought was to the weird and rubbish fluffy lists I'd like to make. Tau skimmer squadrons, Space marine vanguard themed army.

As always with 40k it will be up to the individuals to bring armies and rules to the table that will make the evening a good one. Nothing will have changed.

Still, random pick up games could be a complete free for all.

However before going crazy, lets see what the rest of the book brings. The combination of Side boards (if they exist) and decent bonuses for using the FOC may offset the madness.

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

Because Daemons hate Tyranids because there is apparently no real soul to eat?

That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.

You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Okay, so it's a hoax. There's definitive proof these scans are fake right there in the scans.

Look at the larger page, in the red area to the right. Bottom of the first paragraph starts with the word playtest.

We all know GW does not do that. Good job Photoshop.

Tell that to the playtesters credited in every GW book.

Don't feed the trolls.

Sorry, I didn't notice the invasion of bridges until it was too late.

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

It doesn't say that all armies can use both branches of demonology (sanctic and malefic). Only malefic allows you to summon demons. So I'm pretty sure the ridiculous scenarios people are talking about (Librarians or Farseers summoning Chaos demons) won't happen, because they will most likely only have access to sanctic demonology. My speculation is that sanctic will be anti-demon powers. This would create a dynamic where sanctic and malefic users stand in opposition to, and counter, each other. If this is the way it works, we could see some pretty cool "psycher duels" between the two disciplines.

 Sir Arun wrote:
That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.

You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.

FoC is only thrown out under the "Unbound" rules, which for all we know may be a seperate game type from "Battle Forged". We don't have the full span of rules yet, so can we at least stop trying to shove the game into a pine box until next week?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Okay, so it's a hoax. There's definitive proof these scans are fake right there in the scans.

Look at the larger page, in the red area to the right. Bottom of the first paragraph starts with the word playtest.

We all know GW does not do that. Good job Photoshop.

Tell that to the playtesters credited in every GW book.

Rollo Tomasi.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

Because Daemons hate Tyranids because there is apparently no real soul to eat?

Well, Tyranids don't use the powers of the warp, they just use the game mechanics.

It's still pretty stupid that every time something it is added, Tyranids are out of luck.

To all the nid players crying about their restrictions to psychic powers, you have no idea what changes to the other powers will happen. They could be massive buffs to nids.

Honestly, I have no idea why they would want to do something as stupid as 'Unbound'. I don't think I have met any player who would be into 'Forging a Narrative <tm>' - I like fluff myself, but if I play a game, I want things to be fairly balanced between players. It's supposed to be a wargame, after all. If you take away things that attempt to make the game balanced, you might as well throw away the whole rulebook, take your figures to the sandbox and play with 7 yo. kids and their army men.

No idea what the management or design team is thinking at GW. You have to choose: either it's a miniature wargame with rules, aimed at nerdy people, or it's a line of kiddie toys ment to 'pew pew' it out. Despite how juvenile we players might be, you can't have both in the same product.

edit: So what does updating the 6th so quickly mean? Either it's "Umm guys, now that I look at it, I think the 6th we released is actually a steaming pile of.." or it's "Hey guys, I figured out how to sell even more stuff!" - but I'm not completely sure which one it is..

 Sir Arun wrote:
That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.

That quote never actually alluded to game balance, but to creative freedom within the studio.

This could work out for the best. The biggest hindrance to tightening up the FOC and Allies was always going to be that doing so would make it harder for people to play with all their big expensive toys at once.

So Unbound can be a bone thrown to that part of the playerbase while the 'normal' game gets balanced.

Maybe.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Fluff players REJOICE!

Indeed. Because nothing will make fluff-oriented gamers happier than Eldar Farseers being able to summon Daemonettes to the table...

Rumors have said that the ally table still applies.

edit: Oh, you're talking Daemonology.

Nevermind, you got it.

You know what's funny?

Daemonology was erroneously listed as a psychic discipline on the lexicanum for years.

This makes it a hilarious in hindsight moment.

Okay they're totally insane. Unbound is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, I get the point (buy as many Riptides as you want!) but in practice who is going to play like that? Who is really going to say "I'm talking nothing but Heldrakes and Forgefiends" and expect a game?

The only benefit of it is that it truly lets you discuss narrative games beforehand and come up with a 100% themed force that doesn't get the kibosh on it due to the FOC.

Wow... just wow.

Mymearan wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

It doesn't say that all armies can use both branches of demonology (sanctic and malefic). Only malefic allows you to summon demons. So I'm pretty sure the ridiculous scenarios people are talking about (Librarians or Farseers summoning Chaos demons) won't happen, because they will most likely only have access to sanctic demonology. My speculation is that sanctic will be anti-demon powers. This would create a dynamic where sanctic and malefic users stand in opposition to, and counter, each other. If this is the way it works, we could see some pretty cool "psycher duels" between the two disciplines.

That's a really good point. I imagine Sanctic will be available to 'good' armies and Malefic 'bad'.

Looks like I'll be staying with 6th then. Saves me a few quid, at any rate...

Seriously, though, the psychic phase is a horrific idea. I didn't mind the increased focus on psychic powers in 6th (rulebook powers, mastery levels ect) but making it as important as it is in Fantasy is nonsenical. Wizards don't belong in space. Summoning demons? Fine for Chaos armies, but if anyone else gets it then that's just mad.

The removal of the FOC is equally irritating, as for the odd occasion where you get someone using it to make a fluffy army (and to be honest, you could generally do most fluffy styles within the FOC anyway) you'll get people abusing the hell out of it like every other imbalanced rule. I doubt the 'bonuses' for a FOC army will be able to make it a match for all-FMC demons or all-Riptide Tau.

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

But it says there are two types of it, Sanctic and Malefic, only the latter involving summoning the Daemons (the former presumably being some sort of Exorcism discipline.) I seriously hope, that the Malefic Daemonology is restricted to Chaos factions. Fluff butchery resulting from leaving it unrestricted would be far worse thing than any balance issues caused by the unbound lists.

 ashcroft wrote:
This could work out for the best. The biggest hindrance to tightening up the FOC and Allies was always going to be that doing so would make it harder for people to play with all their big expensive toys at once.

So Unbound can be a bone thrown to that part of the playerbase while the 'normal' game gets balanced.

Maybe.

IF this actually worked, it'd be a good compromise. The FOC and armies are balanced for competitive play and Unbound is the "Do whatever, forge that narrative hard!" approach. But with GW this is unlikely.

Just as with model picture leaks, people should probably not make final decisions until we see the whole thing...

I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
To all the nid players crying about their restrictions to psychic powers, you have no idea what changes to the other powers will happen. They could be massive buffs to nids.

I'm a Tyranid player, and I'm not crying because a) I can "summon" gribblies already, and b) Tyranid psychics are good enough and not a hot-button issue for the army. Now, potential tweaks to the assault phase on the other hand...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.

I laughed.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.

Except GKs will not have access to Malefic Daemonology.

These aren't the droids I was looking for...

Our group is wondering whether to go by the new book. Unbound armies of 30 Riptides? No thank you.

A brand new and unnecessary Psyker phase? Nope, didn't ask for that either.

I'll wait til the book comes out for a list of definitive changes, but so far looks like I'm leaning toward a no vote.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Cant see many tournaments allowing unbound lists.

Please more leaks, I have never been more worried for this hobby, jesus get me more leaks.

Havent played in a year or two and would finally be able to start again soon but now as it is, what fun would I find bringing my Black Templars to the shop when I would probably be playing people spamming fecking flyers or lightning terminators or Hive tyrants or Trygons or Monoliths..... where would the fun be in that? For them of course, for me, feck no.

People wont be making unbound lists for fun, they will be making them to not lose a bloody game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.

According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.

Tyranids clearly have the common decency not to dabble with those less than reputable folk.

To be fair, there are apparently two Daemonolgy tables listed: Sanctic and Malefic. Which makes me think that Eldar, Marines, IG, etc will have Sanctic (sounds like it debuffs and banishes Daemons) and CSM, Daemons, Orks, IG, etc. will have Malefic (sounds like it buffs and summons Daemons). Tyranids will be the only option that can't access either table.

I look forward for new ally chart and the psychic phase.

Blessings needed counterplay badly.