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tag8833 wrote:
Based on the 7th edition article in WD, I think we know how GW feels about 40k players.

I'm still laughing about this post!!

 Kelly502 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Based on the 7th edition article in WD, I think we know how GW feels about 40k players.

I'm still laughing about this post!!

Well they only have the one so.... yeah.

So is anything else in the WD wie haven't seen yet?

Just what has already been mentioned back a page or so. Next WD they promise to tease us more.

For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?

Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.

Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.

HairySticks wrote:
For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?

Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.

Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.

or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau

id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

HairySticks wrote:
For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?

Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.

Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.

or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau

id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.

And Id be happy to play it; Its kinda fluffy Abbaddon has been known to stroll about with a big terminator retinue?

I quite like the sound of the unbound rules for the possibilities it opens up. Sure it allows for lame lists too ... *shrug* just dont play with TFG nothing new here.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau

id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.

What about half drakes, half bikers? Fast Attack for CSM is really good, not just drakes. The exploitable part of unbound isn't just making mono-unit lists, it's exploiting the poor internal balancing of codexes. 0-3 fast attack units limits a lot of that. X Fast attack units...

3 hell turkeys
5 melta nurgle bike squads
5 dakka preds

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
...drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau

I think it's more the case that Heldrake spam is the go-to example for a nasty build which is quite possible with an 'unbound' list but not really practical with a 'battle forged' one. Eldar and Tau may have more powerful builds, but they gain less from being able to get lots of their best units because they have a wide choice of good units and most of their best units are already HQ and Troops choices. Chaos Space Marines benefit a lot more from being able to make an entire army of a single Fast Attack choice, because that unit is significantly better than most of their other options and their troops and HQ choices are especially mediocre.

Look at the other power units of 6th edition:

Riptides? Much better taken in combination with a mixed force.
Wave Serpents? Can already be spammed.
White Scars Bikers with Grav Guns? Can already be spammed.
Warlock council? Can only field one even with unbound, so far as I can tell.
Screamerstar? Can only be fielded once, since it requires a unique artifact and a unique special character to work.
Imperial Knights? Can already be spammed.
Inquisitors? Much better as a support element than a primary force.

Sadly ... I am pretty sure that no matter if I were to play Unbound or Forged ... my Blood Angels will still suck.

6th wrecked my codex, and I am not sure it can get any worse. I am looking forward to 7th just for the narrative to change.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
...drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau

I think it's more the case that Heldrake spam is the go-to example for a nasty build which is quite possible with an 'unbound' list but not really practical with a 'battle forged' one. Eldar and Tau may have more powerful builds, but they gain less from being able to get lots of their best units because they have a wide choice of good units and most of their best units are already HQ and Troops choices. Chaos Space Marines benefit a lot more from being able to make an entire army of a single Fast Attack choice, because that unit is significantly better than most of their other options and their troops and HQ choices are especially mediocre.

Look at the other power units of 6th edition:

Riptides? Much better taken in combination with a mixed force.
Wave Serpents? Can already be spammed.
White Scars Bikers with Grav Guns? Can already be spammed.
Warlock council? Can only field one even with unbound, so far as I can tell.
Screamerstar? Can only be fielded once, since it requires a unique artifact and a unique special character to work.
Imperial Knights? Can already be spammed.
Inquisitors? Much better as a support element than a primary force.

but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.
how can you not spam warlock councils?

i was writing up a decent list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/594165.page#6810834 then realised that... CSM is not a good option for mashing things out..
on that note though extra biker units and a couple of drakes etc, could work nicely. though doesnt have the punch of gravgun spam.

my prefered army for 7th would be IG at this stage BUT, i can make decent CSM lists, just as it opens some options up eg can take oblits in singles to force overkill on single models etc.

I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.

rothrich wrote:
I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.

Currently, yes. It's possible this will change though.

Still, we should get more leaks this week, given we're supposed to get LOTS of new details in the WD coming out on 17May.

 streamdragon wrote:

rothrich wrote:
I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.

Currently, yes. It's possible this will change though.

It occurs to me that removing the requirement to have models on the board at the end of the turn in 7th would explain the Legion of the Damned codex's fatal flaw... If the codex was designed for an edition where you don't automatically lose by having nothing on the table at the end of the turn, suddenly having an entire army that has to start in reserve with no way of getting to the table until at least turn two makes some small amount of sense...

Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...

We still have no idea how casting powers will work so until then we will have no idea.

All we know is that there is a pool of dice, and that you can attempt to cast with as many as you want. We have no idea how it works other than that. We also know that there is a competitive pool of dice that can be to attempt to dispel.

However if I had to guess it will be something like anyone casting in shadows would have a -3 to their roll.

We also know that daemonology is one lore with two different aspects. I would wager that it is akin to the warlock powers. However we dont know if this is something mandatory at the beginning of the game, or if it is something that you always have access too.

We still dont know how getting powers works or anything of that nature.

 Windir83 wrote:
Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...

I'd like to think that nids were written with 7th edition in mind, like necrons were with 6th. That's naive and wishful thinking but I'm still hopeful.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Windir83 wrote:
Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...

I'd like to think that nids were written with 7th edition in mind, like necrons were with 6th. That's naive and wishful thinking but I'm still hopeful.

With how long editions take to write and how long codexes take, I think the safest bet is that the editions are written with the last codexes in mind not the reverse.

Oh, and it looks like DE and Eldar won't be changing how they ally (and if they do it won't be by much). The "Ask Gromrindal" section for WD 15:

I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.

From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.

All this crap over Unbound armies and Escalation is going to make pickup games a nightmare for people like myself who just want to play traditional 40K (i.e. like late 4th Ed, and 5th Ed, before Dataslates, Escalation, Stronghold Assault etc) with balanced and themed lists.

My Raven Guard lists ALWAYS compose of scouts, assault squads, devestators, sternguard, tactical marines, drop pods, the odd dreadnought and a single Storm Talon (which I've not yet assembled, but hope to use one day).

I can't see myself ever playing at a GW store again if I can expect spam lists of Titans, Fliers, Riptides etc.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.

When I say 'spam', I generally mean 'more than half your army' rather than 'your entire army'.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
how can you not spam warlock councils?

'Each Primary Detachment in your army may include up to one council of 1-10 Warlocks.'

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.

From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.

It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).

If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.

Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......

however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games

(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.

From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.

It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).

If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.

Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......

however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games

(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)

Exactly.

Once something is codified in the rules, it will make a certain breed of player far more accepting of the change, and another might never consider it at all (as in, not even think of it) unless presented to them in the rules.

Look at the various threads that pop up from time to time along the lines of "Am I allowed to..." I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint! Newcomers, acolytes and people with no imagination (or at least no inclination to apply it to 40K) need things explicit or they might as well not exist.

 azreal13 wrote:
I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint!

That's not a 'thinking outside the box' issue so much as a side-effect of people being told that the old 'GW-only' requirement for playing in GW stores or events extends to the entire planet and includes paint, and asking to find out if it's actually true...

 insaniak wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint!

That's not a 'thinking outside the box' issue so much as a side-effect of people being told that the old 'GW-only' requirement for playing in GW stores or events extends to the entire planet and includes paint, and asking to find out if it's actually true...

Reading this, I imagined a GW payslave to suddenly start sniffing miniatures, claiming those "don't smell like ze colorz we use here".

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh, and it looks like DE and Eldar won't be changing how they ally (and if they do it won't be by much). The "Ask Gromrindal" section for WD 15:

#1: That seems like a load of crap based on what I understand of the Dark Eldar fluff.
#2: "They don't like each other, they share an UNEASY alliance" Sounds like battle brothers to me.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.

When I say 'spam', I generally mean 'more than half your army' rather than 'your entire army'.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
how can you not spam warlock councils?

'Each Primary Detachment in your army may include up to one council of 1-10 Warlocks.'

unbound is the same as unlimited primary detachments. no FOC. so it goes 2 ways you can take infinte of them ( points allowing) or you can take NONE, because you dont have a primary detachment.

and ahhh ok, over half... well that makes sense i spose, but then is taking 3 drakes in normal games spamming, 510 pts out of 1850-2k. that 25-30% of my army yet under current conditions its considered spamming them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.

From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.

It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).

If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.

Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......

however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games

(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)

i 100% agree with the above, when its not in the book people wont let you do it. once its there it opens the door or atleast means people cant scream NO COZ ITS NOT IN THE RULZ.

i spose we need to remember GW is writing these unbound rules based on the average casual beer and pretzels player, as they dont acknowledge the power gamers that exist... so they are expecting its fluffy use rather than total abuse

tag8833 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh, and it looks like DE and Eldar won't be changing how they ally (and if they do it won't be by much). The "Ask Gromrindal" section for WD 15:

#1: That seems like a load of crap based on what I understand of the Dark Eldar fluff.
#2: "They don't like each other, they share an UNEASY alliance" Sounds like battle brothers to me.

Well that or Allies of Convience, but definitely not Desperate Allies. As for the fluff, their last fluff injection was in 5th almost a year prior to 6th and the allies thing, so there is always room for more stuff in the next book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Concerning the whole "why does it need to be in the rulebook, you can just do this with your friends anyways" stuff, not even a year ago we had people venomously arguing on this very message board on if FW was "legal" or not because it wasn't specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So yeah, it needs to be in the rulebook.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
There's more to a codex than it' competitive power, as hard as that may be to imagine.

I do agree that it had very little to further the "story" of the IG or add "flavor" to the army.

I guess it was such a rehash of some things and many models were removed I looked at it for what it was: a rules update for IG with an eye to GW models not Forge World.

It is easy to be used to them dusting off old fluff they put out through the years and mix and match in their next codex release, is it easy not to expect much by way of new content?

I find that the only "excitement" I get from any new publication is the idea of "what changed now?" rather than any new writing they had done.
Why cannot they quote from more of the Black Library fiction books?
The writing there is worlds better than what they dream up for rule/codex books.

Anyway, long winded way to say "good point, I should raise my expectations".

unbound is the same as unlimited primary detachments. no FOC. so it goes 2 ways you can take infinte of them ( points allowing) or you can take NONE, because you dont have a primary detachment.

No, not exatcly. You will need a primary attachment and you still have to respect the allies matrix, so you cannot ally with yourself, except Space Marines who have explicit permission to do so.