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 Squidbot wrote:
Why is this conversation about Xbox now?

Comparing optional luxury game services to another, trying to justify one is too much while the other is a bargain? I have no idea.

Warhammer 40k part 7: "The Revengening".

In this exiting edition we predict no one will be happy!

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
$85 for the rules and you have to buy an additional card pack! And they more than likely plan to invalidate the rules every two years now so what is wrong with GW? It's like they're trying to throw the company under the train on purpose now.

My psychic cards are predicting another 25% fall very soon for the big Kirby machine.

I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?

Because for some people, it's either/or, not both. Look I know the "feth you, I got mine Jack" attitude is popular around here, but it's not a difficult concept to grasp; people who don't have a lot of disposable income are naturally going to resent an additional unnecessary expense being imposed. It means they have to give up something else, and if they can only afford to keep up one hobby and chose 40K, it means they have to eat into their own hobby budget just to keep using the models they already have.

Christ I have an Autism spectrum disorder and I seem to have more empathy and basic consideration for other people's circumstances than a lot of folk here.

If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.

No starter, no purchase from me.

No interest in shelling out for an overpriced rehash of the same legacy issue bollocksed rules we've been fiddling with for 4 editions now. If the rules came with the starter, I might mess around with them, but with so many free alternatives around, there's nothing to tempt me to buy it, if the rumour of no starter is true.

I hope it's just "no simultaneous release" of a starter set.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.

I think that's a bit too far on the cynicism there. I don't think it's quite that bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
The new missions would seem to require them.

But the old Missions are still in the rules too.

Bull0 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:


There will be no starter.

From 40k radio:

"Some updates on 7th edition: 1) It will purely be a book release. 2) It could be released as early as May.

So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.

1) The 6th ed rulebook was released in july and the starter box wasn't out until September so the fact that there's no starter box this month proves precisely feth all

2) You've got no idea how long it'll be valid for

1) It has been clearly stated by 40k radio that this will be an book only edition! Dont try to educate me in GWs release schedule please.
2) When GW can get every 40k player to buy an expensive rulebook every fourth year and then every second year, do you really tink they will hesitate even one second trying for yearly editons?

A new rushed edition just 2 years after the last one and people really think this will "fix" everything?

jamesk1973 wrote:
Warhammer 40k part 7: "The Revengening".

In this exiting edition we predict no one will be happy!

Except those of us that will be.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.

If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.

 jhnbrg wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.

I think that's a bit too far on the cynicism there. I don't think it's quite that bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
The new missions would seem to require them.

But the old Missions are still in the rules too.

Bull0 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:


There will be no starter.

From 40k radio:

"Some updates on 7th edition: 1) It will purely be a book release. 2) It could be released as early as May.

So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.

1) The 6th ed rulebook was released in july and the starter box wasn't out until September so the fact that there's no starter box this month proves precisely feth all

2) You've got no idea how long it'll be valid for

1) It has been clearly stated by 40k radio that this will be an book only edition! Dont try to educate me in GWs release schedule please.
2) When GW can get every 40k player to buy an expensive rulebook every fourth year and then every second year, do you really tink they will hesitate even one second trying for yearly editons?

A new rushed edition just 2 years after the last one and people really think this will "fix" everything?

I completely agree if the fools who buy this make it successful in the least, expect nothing short of GW jumping directly on at the very least a brand new 2 year cycle for editions with a price creep every time for good measure.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:


If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years

That is the problem. Right there.

You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."

You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.

Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?

 warboss wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.

If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.

This is a worthless argument based on nothing. There is zero evidence that GW will release a new edition next summer. One instance of them shortening the release schedule doesn't make it a "trend".


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 Squidbot wrote:
Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?

There is indeed a deck of 36 cards for objectives.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
$85 for the rules and you have to buy an additional card pack! And they more than likely plan to invalidate the rules every two years now so what is wrong with GW? It's like they're trying to throw the company under the train on purpose now.

My psychic cards are predicting another 25% fall very soon for the big Kirby machine.

I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?

Because for some people, it's either/or, not both. Look I know the "feth you, I got mine Jack" attitude is popular around here, but it's not a difficult concept to grasp; people who don't have a lot of disposable income are naturally going to resent an additional unnecessary expense being imposed. It means they have to give up something else, and if they can only afford to keep up one hobby and chose 40K, it means they have to eat into their own hobby budget just to keep using the models they already have.

Christ I have an Autism spectrum disorder and I seem to have more empathy and basic consideration for other people's circumstances than a lot of folk here.

If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.

It's ironic how the tone of your post validates the person's statement that you quoted. You may or may not mean to sound churlish but you certainly come off that way. The value that anyone places in "this hobby" (as if GW games are a hobby and not a slice of the overall miniature wargaming hobby) is completely subjective. If someone says that they don't value paying $100 every couple of years for a book, the courteous thing would be to just say something benign like "I disagree but you have a right to your opinion" instead of making a statement about how they are in the "wrong hobby." What response do you expect to that? The only plausible answer is that you are looking to start an argument, kudos.

In reality, GW games are in a realm unto themselves as far as cost goes. Many modern wargaming companies offer free or low-cost rules so that people spend more money on the actual product that involves the most investment, the miniatures. GW has established a trend to the opposite; they are charging increasingly larger sums for the rules which I believe results in players having less available spending cash to purchase the more expensive to produce miniatures. It's odd and counter productive in my opinion and apparently strikes other posters as such as well considering their comments.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:


If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years

That is the problem. Right there.

You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."

You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.

This is a good point. I bought into the 6th hype, picked up a LE and overall felt pretty good about it, believing it would last the minimum lifespan of any previous book (and most have been about the same, 4-5 years).

Now I am concerned 7th won't last but two years, and it is even possible it could last less time. Only now I'm probably going to have to pay more than the book from 6th. Now obviously I won't buy another LE copy, but I was looking at that as a special bonus; I still thought $75 was a lot of money for a rulebook.

Overall, I think this move (while perhaps beneficial in the rules department) will not be good for the health of 40k.

EDIT: and again, the reason this is concerning is it is such a marked shift from the trend. A loss of a year would have been annoying buy such huge drop is downright concerning.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:


If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years

That is the problem. Right there.

You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."

You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.

I'm not sure what you mean. My 6th edition book still works fine, and will until they release 7th edition several years from now.

I hear that Games Workshop is working on some other game that's going to release soon that lets you use all the models from your 40k armies though. Sounds kind of crazy.

 daedalus wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:


If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years

That is the problem. Right there.

You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."

You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.

I'm not sure what you mean. My 6th edition book still works fine, and will until they release 7th edition several years from now.

I hear that Games Workshop is working on some other game that's going to release soon that lets you use all the models from your 40k armies though. Sounds kind of crazy.

I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.

If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.

This is a worthless argument based on nothing. There is zero evidence that GW will release a new edition next summer. One instance of them shortening the release schedule doesn't make it a "trend".

You could say the same thing about rumors of 7th edition in 2013... but we can see how that would turn out. The fact is that GW has accelerated the timetable on editions and your guess about the length of the upcoming edition's lifespan is as good or bad as anyone else's guess... which is pointless. Your argument about getting years worth of use out of this edition is moot because of the sudden appearance of this edition. If sales/profits continue to shrink, there is nothing stopping GW from trying to cash in on the yearly "call of duty" and "assassin's creed" style of yearly iterations in another attempt to stem the shrinkage.

I'll agree that, whilst this is an expensive purchase, I can't see past us only accepting this happening once.

I'll buy it this time. If they release 8th edition in two years, I will not be falling into that cycle. No thanks. I imagine GW are acutely aware of this and will be jumping on fact that 6th is a jumbled mess - Data slates are a grey area because they aren't in the books etc.

They are doing this edition to push the sales of data slates and formations etc.

Fair enough. Won't happen a 2nd time round because even the most understanding player will be angry at them for it.

 Squidbot wrote:
Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?

What people were calling "tokens" is actually a mission card set.
40-20-60 WH40K TACTICAL OBJECTIVES


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 ascended_mike wrote:
I'll agree that, whilst this is an expensive purchase, I can't see past us only accepting this happening once.

I'll buy it this time. If they release 8th edition in two years, I will not be falling into that cycle. No thanks. I imagine GW are acutely aware of this and will be jumping on fact that 6th is a jumbled mess - Data slates are a grey area because they aren't in the books etc.

They are doing this edition to push the sales of data slates and formations etc.

Fair enough. Won't happen a 2nd time round because even the most understanding player will be angry at them for it.

Keep in mind that for as long as I can remember (and I have been involved in 40K both as a hobbyist and retailer since Rogue Trader) that GW has been focused on the 12 year old newcomer. Getting them in, getting them to spend $XXX.XX and then moving on is their main goal. When you realize that and that those of us who have stuck with it beyond that scope and are NOT the main audience as GW sees it makes it easier to either move on - or not - whatever your decision may be.

As a university student, I've long since been atrophied to buying $150+ books in the 2-300 page range I'll only use for 4 months.

I don't like buying the big expensive GW books alongside my school books, and I think it's only going to hurt their business ($150+ before you can even start building a list is quite the barrier), but as someone already invested, and as I'm in the last stages of my degree, I have to buy a lot less school books, it doesn't bother me personally very much if the outcome improves the game.

That being said, I never bought the 6th book; at the time I was still building up my first army, it wasn't in the budget at $75 on top of Russes and Guardsmen, and I imagine that will remain true for anyone else who wants to get in to the game or is trying to build up their army or had recently bought the 6th book.

I can stomach this, and am even cautiously optimistic (I finally get to do the 1st Company Marine list I've always wanted), but I can see how this may piss off a lot of people. What I expect is a lot of people are going to wait and see what the consensus is on the new book from those who buy it, and decide if the improvements, if any, are enough to swallow the price.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?

Er, it was the statement that 6th will keep being valid long as you keep playing it, along with a joke that these changes are such a departure from the norm that 7ed probably shouldn't be considered 40k.

So as soon GW does something which isnt absolutely crazy and stupid and mean towards its customers people are actually praising them.

This GW-customer relation is really the psychology of an abusive relationship. "they promised not to hit me, or they didnt promise but I guess it looks like it." while people say "dont blame GW, GW does nothing wrong, you could just stop being you and GW wont hit you anymore" but we all reply "but we love GW, we remember a time when it was a good relationship and we soooo much want to get there again"

but GW wont change... and if they do, its only a front to lure victims

 daedalus wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?

Er, it was the statement that 6th will keep being valid long as you keep playing it, along with a joke that these changes are such a departure from the norm that 7ed probably shouldn't be considered 40k.

Ah, okay. Can't say I disagree with the second bit!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, won't he autolose from taking 10 turkies, since he has hardly anything on the board?"

There's a mention in one of the posted excerpts about Unbound lists being able to take all tanks or flyers... which suggests that an all-reserve list isn't an auto-lose any more.


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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Hopefuly the fact that Unbound lists cant contest objectives at all is a big disincentive towards actually trying to play Unbound seriously.

It won't be, because from my experience most players ignore the mission and just try to wipe each other out, only remembering to try to grab objectives at the end of the game.

The 'can't contest' thing is certainly some sort of balancer, but it's not enough in my book... and it's a silly, arbitrary restriction that still makes no sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So seems instead of an allies matrix theres a 'faction' now. Probably imperium/chaos/eldar/everyone else? lol

I'm guessing that 'Faction' refers to a codex and its offshoots. So the parent codex, plus any supplements or dataslates that refer to that parent codex.


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 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?

Because the fact that some other completely unrelated thing costs money doesn't make people feel any better about having to buy a new rulebook after 2 years or less?

 insaniak wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Hopefuly the fact that Unbound lists cant contest objectives at all is a big disincentive towards actually trying to play Unbound seriously.

It won't be, because from my experience most players ignore the mission and just try to wipe each other out, only remembering to try to grab objectives at the end of the game.

The 'can't contest' thing is certainly some sort of balancer, but it's not enough in my book... and it's a silly, arbitrary restriction that still makes no sense.

Yeah, most games I've actually ever see revolve around two players trying to bash the other one to smithereens- that's not to say they're jerks about it, just that their primary focus is destroying the opponent.

 Accolade wrote:
Yeah, most games I've actually ever see revolve around two players trying to bash the other one to smithereens- that's not to say they're jerks about it, just that their primary focus is destroying the opponent.

Of course, there's also the fact that at least in the current edition, in several of the missions just killing your opponent is the objective...

True, I do get caught up in killing the other guy rather than sitting on a token myself...

Please stop the off-topic conversation about Xbox live. I will be deleting all such posts in the last few pages.


Thank you.

Think it's absolutely unfair to blame 40k's current issues at the feet of Jervis.

The design team has had their work filtered and directed by the sales people for many years, hence the game being about as balanced as the hormones of the man/woman who won the Eurovision song contest, the new trends of DLC, and there being a new version released less then two years after the previous one.

I sometimes get the impression things would be worse if he wasn't there... there are so few of the 'old guard' left, the people who built the company into what it is today with their ideas. He's the equivalent of the terrified but well meaning villager leaving offerings to the giant ogre that periodically comes to the village. He could run off (like all of his friends have done) but instead he bravely stands in front of the monster, leaving a few offerings and managing to stop the ogre from smashing the town, and everything they have worked so hard to build, to pieces.

I love that the first thing he said was "One of the leading design principles was so that you can use any models you want!"

 Pacific wrote:
Think it's absolutely unfair to blame 40k's current issues at the feet of Jervis.

The design team has had their work filtered and directed by the sales people for many years, hence the game being about as balanced as the hormones of the man/woman who won the Eurovision song contest, the new trends of DLC, and there being a new version released less then two years after the previous one.

I sometimes get the impression things would be worse if he wasn't there... there are so few of the 'old guard' left, the people who built the company into what it is today with their ideas. He's the equivalent of the terrified but well meaning villager leaving offerings to the giant ogre that periodically comes to the village. He could run off (like all of his friends have done) but instead he bravely stands in front of the monster, leaving a few offerings and managing to stop the ogre from smashing the town, and everything they have worked so hard to build, to pieces.

The people that left may have possessed intergity, clarity of vision and or possible even a soul. Jervis is in the video pushing this crap, and he looks tired, very very tired.

Pickup games remain pretty much dead and the balkanisation of gaming groups continues. Hurray for 7th edition.