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 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?

Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.

As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.

Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS

hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.

I wonder if this works..

So if you have a Herald of Tzeetch w/ Portaglyph and a Model that has the Sacrifice ability you could possibly have more than one portal out at a time.

1st model w/ Portaglyph uses it in his Movement phase

Psychic Phase
2 Psykers w/ Sacrifice Cast Sacrifice on the the Model that has the Portaglyph. He dies

2nd Summoned Herald comes in with Portaglyph. During the 2nd Turn Casts Portaglyph

2nd Psychic phase Repeat. You're trading two Heralds for 1.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?

Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.

As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.

Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS

hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.

Makes me think of the Infinite Squirrel Decks of MtG.

Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.

If Primaris Psykers CAN'T get Malefic, I'll be a sad panda...

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.

I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.

So...those Malefic powers seem pretty powerful.

Like super stupid powerful.

Like summoning more demons that can then summon more demons that can yet further summon more demons that can summon more demons, and deepen your warp charge pool with each summoning.

I only hope that the perils of the warp is similarly stupidly overpowered.

So much so that attempting to use multiples of these powers can leave you with half of your army destroyed about roughly half of the time. The risk vs. reward slope should be similarly steep in both directions.

As we can see the reward slope is insane. Is there any demon player who would NOT spam psykers in order to summon further summonings of summoning?

Either that or local demon players are going to have an uphill battle convincing anyone to play with them.

Hey man mark my words Daemons summoning daemons will be allowed simply because GW needs the cash really bad right now (see moving to a two year cycle) and you have to have the physical model to summon it sooo yeah I can see them more than happy with daemons "narratively forging" daemons.

Question I have not seen bought up with the discussion on summoning.

If you use more dice does the chance of you perelling increase?

SO yeah you may have 1000 warp charges in your army and max ability to summon that Blood Thirster but the more dice you roll the more chance of that double 1?

All of these recursive Daemon summoning tricks fall over based on the current rules as you only generate powers at the start of the game - so any Horrors or Heralds that you spawn have warp charge but can't cast themselves (so the original units have more warp charge to work with but you don't exponentially spawn). Yes its a stupid RAW ruling, but people will push for it if the rules for generating powers haven't changed and this is going to be a problem.

slaede wrote:Edit: I take this back. You could indeed keep spamming Tzeralds with the Sacrifice power.

Slaanesh/Nurgle heralds can do this as well, but with less dice available

sydewynder wrote:All this talk of spamming Psychic Powers to summon summons that summon summons. I'm really hoping for a WHFB-esque Perils chart. 2D6 roll to cripple your army.

jamesk1973 wrote:So...those Malefic powers seem pretty powerful.

Like super stupid powerful.

Like summoning more demons that can then summon more demons that can yet further summon more demons that can summon more demons, and deepen your warp charge pool with each summoning.

those made me chuckle a bit.

ClockworkZion wrote:I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.

Yeah, I concur. Conjuration rules could bring some limitations.

It's probably more failures than successes or something to that effect.

I doubt they'll limit Psychic Abilities to one per army, otherwise no one could take the Primaris power as standard and that would be pointless to have Primaris powers that you cannot take then have to reroll accordingly if a previous psyker had the roll.

Then the max number of Psychic Levels you could have in a army would be like 6 or something.

Plus it'd make Brotherhood of Psykers for Demons kind of pointless.


It would also guarentee that you got all 6 powers if you have 6 Mastery Levels of a particular school.

I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.

That's actually a good point. 2nd edition used cards for each psychic power - you chose powers randomly by dealing cards out to each psyker, 1 card for each mastery level. So you never had any given power on more than one psyker.

Given the mind-bending brokenness of the Daemonology powers shown so far, that wouldn't be an entirely bad thing to see return. (So it appears that my dislike for arbitrary restrictions is dependant entirely on how much I think they benefit the game overall... )

Hollismason wrote:
It's probably more failures than successes or something to that effect.

I doubt they'll limit Psychic Abilities to one per army, otherwise no one could take the Primaris power as standard and that would be pointless to have Primaris powers that you cannot take then have to reroll accordingly if a previous psyker had the roll.

Then the max number of Psychic Levels you could have in a army would be like 6 or something.

Plus it'd make Brotherhood of Psykers for Demons kind of pointless.


It would also guarentee that you got all 6 powers if you have 6 Mastery Levels of a particular school.

I don't think anyone is ML6 so that'd mean a total of ML6 for your army in a single school, which isn't that broken, they could still make that one psyker wielding that power they don't like explode with proper target priority.

And units with powers chosen for them wouldn't be affected (Hammerhand for instance) and I think Fantasy lets you double down on the Primaris.

Like I said it'd make Demons Psychic Abilities kind of gakky as you couldn't have a army of Pink Horrors because they'd use up all of the "cards" of the Tzeetch discipline.

It'd also always just be Okay I have 3 level 2 Psykers, I take 1 Power from Divination. I take another, I take Another.

I have all of the divination powers. Who cares if you roll randomly when you are going to get the whole list anyway.

Dunno how it'll work, but I know what I'm taking on my Chaos Sorcerer's again.

Pity we can't designate aspiring champions to be hosts, but alas..

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?

Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.

As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.

Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS

hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.

30+d6 warp charges does not translate to 60+ daemons. Six attempts would only give you 5-6 charges per casting, which means half or more of them will fail, resulting in maybe 20 daemons actually showing up. Four or five attempts with seven dice each will probably get better results, with maybe four successes on an average turn. Then your opponent gets to deny some of them. Probably stops at least one with thirty denial dice in their pool. So, you are producing maybe three units of ten lesser daemons each turn, by using all the warp charges of 1,500 point force who do very little except produce warp charges to power these abilities.

Congratulations, you can now spawn daemons almost as fast as a conventional army can shoot them off the board.

As for generating more warp charges with daemons you just bought in, I'm pretty sure that you roll for warp charges before you start using them and, unlike Mana in M:tG, you can't draw more in the same turn. In theory you will be able to get more warp charges in the next turn, but in practice I think you will be taking casualties faster than you spawn them most of the time, so you are unlikely to break even.

It's not a terrible option. It lets you play a defensive strategy, while giving you the choice to shift tactics and it will probably be able to outpace some enemies with weak anti-horde shooting. But it's not a ridiculously powerful combo in the way that Screamerstar is.

This is rather dependent on the cost of the 'sacrifice' ability actually being three charges. The image is a bit blurry, so it could possibly be a two or even a one. At a lower cost it becomes a lot more effective to spend the first couple of turns generating more heralds for extra charges and then unleashing a horde as you are about to make contact with the enemy.

I wouldn't be surprised to see " You can only cast one spell a turn, but multiple Psykers can have that spell".


Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all really if it wasn't like that and you could try to summon like 60 demons a turn. It would not be a surprise, GW is incredibly disconnected when it comes to certain things.

I'm kind of hoping this rule also gets transferred from WFB to 7th ed 40k:

"The casting player's Wizards can attempt to cast each of their spells once during each Magic phase"

It would stop some of this mass-summoning at least.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

40k is now Apocalypse.

Syphid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

40k is now Apocalypse.

Without strategems...

Hoping they are next!

Yeah I could see that totally, it still means you can get a crapload of demons though.

Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.

They kinda can be, just only for heralds, still a better idea to sac a chump though. Your sorcerer is just going to have to be the host for the greater daemon.

Speaking of which if you play Daemons, have a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, it goes down to 1 wound, could you just use the Possession power and sac the current one to summon a new one?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.

You assume that the goal is game balance instead of sales. I expect no limits at all, since the more demons you can summon each turn the more demon models you have to buy. Adding these new powers and making them available to everyone is just a blatant attempt at boosting sales.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.

"Coming soon: the Ultramarines play set, complete with your own Marneus Calgar who comes complete with Avatar punching action!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.

You assume that the goal is game balance instead of sales. I expect no limits at all, since the more demons you can summon each turn the more demon models you have to buy. Adding these new powers and making them available to everyone is just a blatant attempt at boosting sales.

No, I assume they'll make things more random and special snowflake but not letting your psykers copy each other.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).

Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.

What, did you never play any of the Warhammer Fantasy: Skirmish scenarios?

Quite a few of those involved horribly skewed points/model counts--yet were still really fun. The one with 1000ish points of whatever army (with a continuous "spawn" of units recycling until the end of the final turn) against 5 Wood Elf Waywatchers with random traps on the table was a really fun one to play.

ickz wrote:
I'm kind of hoping this rule also gets transferred from WFB to 7th ed 40k:

"The casting player's Wizards can attempt to cast each of their spells once during each Magic phase"

It would stop some of this mass-summoning at least.

Isn't that what happens now (without the magic phase)? Each psyker can cast each of its powers once. You cannot cast 2 Psychic Screams by the same psyker, but 2 different psykers can cast it. The summon gallore can happen as well if 2 or more psykers have the Conjuration powers and try to cast such powers.
Now, if each power can be cast only once PER PSYCHIC PHASE, then the summoning gets whittled down