40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)

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**Kilgore Trout 420**

Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Wow, so GW was serious about IoM willing to summon demons from the warp.

Like...wow. Really. That's just...wow. That's worse than the 5th Necron fluff. Holy crap. So, "forge your narrative" now means "feth everything, nobody wants that lore anyway!"? Well played GW.

The only way I can see the IoM summoning daemons is if it was a Radical Inquisitor using Chaos-based weaponry, in which would kind of make sense but more often or not the Inquisitor falls to Chaos.

But this....is just a travesty.

I'm not really a fan of this either but couldn't it just be an accident? In the Inquisitors desperation to win a battle he loses control of his power tearing a hole in the warp in which daemons spew out of. It doesn't have to be a conscious effort to summon a daemon by the inquisitor...

**WrentheFaceless**

I eagerly await reports of people taking demonology powers, then rolling tons of doubles and taking horrible, horrible Perils

Though also awaiting more information on what leadership modifiers vs psyker powers do now since Psyker powers arent leadership tests anymore (ex. Shadows, Aegis, etc)

**Hollismason**

coredump wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Powerguy wrote:
First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it .

The White Dwarf excerpt posted some time ago said everyone except Tyranids could use it.

As I recall, everyone gets access to demonology, but there are two tables. I assume that most/all armies will only get access to one of the two tables.

The White Dwarf specifically mentions Wyrdvanes being able to summon demons. So Imperial Guard get them.

Also, from what I understand it's only a perils if you roll 2 6s unless you are trying to summon demons and are not a demon then it's any doubles. Also, we still have not found out what exactly the rules are for stopping psychic powers people know they can stop them but how and what the role is is kind of unclear.

Mainly because the odds are in your favor of dispelling Psykers abilities or at least making them stop completely so who knows how that will work.

**Perfect Organism**

OK, I've been grinding the numbers on using Sacrifice to get HoT for more warp charge vs. simply using Summon, Incursion and Possession to get useful units ASAP.

Long story short, it's probably slightly better just to summon stuff you need rather than running a daemon factory. The daemon factory only wins out if you get into turn six and then it's only barely better.

Summoning Daemons is still better than most Witchfire powers, but that isn't saying much.

It's difficult to compare them to blessings, but I think that most blessings increase the survivability or killing power of a unit by about 50% and usually only need WC 1. So, two good psykers can double the effectiveness of your best unit (probably worth several hundred points) or summon a few hundred points worth of daemons over the course of a battle. I'd say so long as you've got a 300+ point unit to buff, it's better to concentrate on blessings.

**Wakshaani**

Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.

Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.

Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.

**Vaktathi**

Wakshaani wrote:
Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.

Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.

Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.

Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.

**Spoletta**

Honestly it looks like the demon factory will be a legit tactic, but far from a broken one.

**Ir0njack**

With the demonology haven't we only seen the maelific side of things? Any info about the Santic side, it atleast sounds abit lest heretical. Or am I just missing something?

**bodazoka**

Vaktathi wrote:
Wakshaani wrote:
Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.

Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.

Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.
Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.

Definitely agree with the boost.

You wont see Tyranids or Chaos players take more flyers than they all ready would of though.

And apparently there might be a benefit to snap shots in the new rules so everything might even out anyway...

**gigasnail**

agreed. flyrants/crones already pretty much best units in the codex. nothing changed there, no need for jimmies to be rustled. folks were already basically maxing them if they were serious anyway.

**endlesswaltz123**

I like the idea of daemonology in principle.... Though, taking a 1500pt Army, then being able to add to it with more troops in game... There's imbalance and then there is taking it to whole new levels.

I also really don't like the idea of the imperium purposely summoning daemons, it really is so against the fluff it is untrue, now if daemons were summoned as the consequence of perils of the warp and went to the opposing player, and always counted as 'come the apocalypse' then yeah, I like that idea, but the idea of space marine librarians sacrifycing themselves to khorne, when battling khorne daemons? They could have at least made it interesting, with different creatures than those of the big 4... 'Imperial daemons' or 'Eldar daemons' or 'Ork daemons'

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Vaktathi wrote:
Wakshaani wrote:
Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.

Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.

Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.
Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.

Aren't they already spammed mercilessly?

**Tonberry7**

I'm not getting too excited/worried about all the new Daemonology Conjuration powers yet. This is speculation, but given the heavy focus on summoning type powers in the Malefic discipline, I'd be very surprised if there weren't any opposing Banishment type powers in the Santic discipline.

**Peregrine**

Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm not getting too excited/worried about all the new Daemonology Conjuration powers yet. This is speculation, but given the heavy focus on summoning type powers in the Malefic discipline, I'd be very surprised if there weren't any opposing Banishment type powers in the Santic discipline.

And here's the new discipline. Roll a D3 on the following table:

Banishing (primaris)
WC 1
You may buy any number of demon models from the store. For each demon model purchased you may cancel one opposing summoned demon and remove it as a casualty.

Emperor's Intervention
WC 1
You may buy any number of GK models and immediately deploy them. Treat them as battle brothers as long as opposing demon models are on the table.

Ever-changing Warp
WC 2
Update your opponent's demon codex. Unless they immediately buy a new copy ($75) from the store all summoned demon models in their army are immediately removed as casualties.

Mass Unsummoning
WC 3
Immediately remove all opposing summoned demon models as casualties. Your opponent may purchase an equal number of new demon models from the store and immediately deploy them.

**Eldarain**

Scathing cynicism at it's finest as per usual. (Not that it's totally undeserved)

**xttz**

Some stuff from /tg/ that mostly lines up with other rumours / WD snippets:

>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.

>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.

>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games. Oh, and as a bonus, forged armies get to reroll their warlord trait if desired.

>Unsure of the rest of the damage chart changes, but explodes only happens on a 7+ now.

>You can ally with "come the apoc" now. Penalties include not being allowed within 12 in and not being able to deploy together

>Jink saves are better, but universally force snap shots next turn.

>FMC now only have to make one grounding test a shooting phase, and only if wounded. No more laser pointer crashes. Big buff for flying circus.

>Oh, and apparently snap fire has been changed to a -2BS modifier instead of the flat BS1

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

xttz wrote:
Some stuff from /tg/ that mostly lines up with other rumours / WD snippets:

>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.

>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.

>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games. Oh, and as a bonus, forged armies get to reroll their warlord trait if desired.

>Unsure of the rest of the damage chart changes, but explodes only happens on a 7+ now.

>You can ally with "come the apoc" now. Penalties include not being allowed within 12 in and not being able to deploy together

>Jink saves are better, but universally force snap shots next turn.

>FMC now only have to make one grounding test a shooting phase, and only if wounded. No more laser pointer crashes. Big buff for flying circus.

>Oh, and apparently snap fire has been changed to a -2BS modifier instead of the flat BS1

Seems like a good buff. Though I have to wonder for SM armies, does this make Flak Missiles even more useless (I didn't think that was possible)?

That and Archons and Vindicare Assassins just become terrifying to assault.

**bodazoka**

So FMC's and flyers end up getting a nerf!

Not as happy about the grounding thing as I was lol.

**Peregrine**

xttz wrote:
>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.

This doesn't even make any sense. If cover and invulnerable saves are allowed then all you've got is an AP 2 weapon. Why would you ever take a D-weapon when you can take things like STR 10 AP 2 guns with a bigger template?

>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.

This is a HUGE difference if it really is all units, since that means vehicles now score.

>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games.

Not a surprise. The rulebook pages GW previewed include a statement that you have to have permission/agreement to use a point limit (I guess the alternative is "just put some models on the table"), so it seems like everything now requires you and your opponent to agree on how to use it.

**xttz**

The snap fire change has a lot of interesting implications if true:

It balances out the grounding test change for FMCs nicely, as most races will find it easier to get hits and therefore wounds.

Armies with poor Skyfire options (Sisters!) can at least use BS4+ units for better results. Dual-devourer Walkrants just got twice as effective.

If Overwatch fire is really allowed at BS2+, assault units could be in trouble without further changes. I wouldn't be surprised if assault grenades interfered with Overwatch in some way now.

**jackblg**

Im so exited by this. Cannot wait to see where 7th leads me. Guess i will have to re tune my necrons

**SarisKhan**

I can't express how much I'm relieved by the change to the Vehicle Damage chart. I've grown weary of my Predators exploding the moment somebody looks at them funny.

Each time a Trygon Prime, Dakkafex or Dakka Flyrant shoots at my tank's side/rear armour, they explode. No matter the low strength of the attacks or potential cover/invulnerable saves to defend from them, my friend has rolled 6s so many times that the other penetration results may as well not exist to me. But not anymore!

I'm somewhat worried by the change to grounding tests, but if Snap Shots get an improvement, this might balance out in the end.

I assume the third video will be released later today?

**Tonberry7**

xttz wrote:
The snap fire change has a lot of interesting implications if true:

It balances out the grounding test change for FMCs nicely, as most races will find it easier to get hits and therefore wounds.

Armies with poor Skyfire options (Sisters!) can at least use BS4+ units for better results. Dual-devourer Walkrants just got twice as effective.

If Overwatch fire is really allowed at BS2+, assault units could be in trouble without further changes. I wouldn't be surprised if assault grenades interfered with Overwatch in some way now.

If snap shots are now not BS1 anymore, it's not balancing FMCs at all, it's an overall nerf imo.

And as for overwatch, they needed to give assault units a bit of a boost, not punish them further.

**Rick_1138**

Trying to get that munitorum edition on Friday night\sat morning will be fun!...I assume about £200 and im a collectors ed whore, but I don't want the usual faffing about of mashing away at the refresh button and furiously typing in my card details!

**unmercifulconker**

Apart from the issues I have with unbound, (although the requirement to gain permission is a recognition of the issues it may cause) im really liking the new edition to be honest.

Love the way its 3 books split although covers could be better. That collectors edition one is b-e-a-utiful.

Really should turn my chaos into word bearers, time to get a sorceror.

**BlaxicanX**

Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Assuming Conjuration powers stay the same as they are in 6th (yes, rules for conjurations do exist in 6th, it's just that GW never made any powers to use the rules...) then the Summoning powers aren't too bad. Sure, it is a new squad for 0 points but it enters via deepstrike; scatter, mishaps and all and they never count as scoring.

So all daemons without shooting attacks (so basically all the non Tz options) have to sit tight for a turn and hope they don't die.
Also no dropping scoring units last turn.
Not saying it isn't powerful, but it isn't as powerful as some people are saying/thinking.

Again, this is assuming Conjurations stay the same in 7th, if not then who knows how it play out.

**morganfreeman**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I like the idea of daemonology in principle.... Though, taking a 1500pt Army, then being able to add to it with more troops in game... There's imbalance and then there is taking it to whole new levels.

I also really don't like the idea of the imperium purposely summoning daemons, it really is so against the fluff it is untrue, now if daemons were summoned as the consequence of perils of the warp and went to the opposing player, and always counted as 'come the apocalypse' then yeah, I like that idea, but the idea of space marine librarians sacrifycing themselves to khorne, when battling khorne daemons? They could have at least made it interesting, with different creatures than those of the big 4... 'Imperial daemons' or 'Eldar daemons' or 'Ork daemons'

Assuming Orks have access to this, I fully intend to make myself Tuska and some of his Psy Nobz to use for "counts as" stuff.

Demons are for chumps, warp Orks all the way.

**Wayshuba**

Rick_1138 wrote:
Trying to get that munitorum edition on Friday night\sat morning will be fun!...I assume about £200 and im a collectors ed whore, but I don't want the usual faffing about of mashing away at the refresh button and furiously typing in my card details!

I would be very surprised if they go that fast. Considering it's only been two years since the last edition, and will probably be only two years to the next one, I don't imagine too many are willing to plunk down $340 US for a set of rules/books that will be dust-collectors in 24 months.

**Sarigar**

Overall I am pretty excited. However, the latest rumor on D Weapons make little sense when you compare the cost of a model. If cover and inv saves are allowed unless you roll a 6 to wound, things like the Revenant are very much overpriced.