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Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






They cannot swivel like sponson mounted weapons, and hull mounted weapons have 45° line of sight but these guns are lined parallel to the hull so they only have half that, i.e. 22.5° line of sight, am I correct?


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

If they are hull mounted they have a 45 degree arc or fire, as per page 72

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz




Canberra, Down Under

 DeathReaper wrote:
If they are hull mounted they have a 45 degree arc or fire, as per page 72

Including if they were able to shoot through themselves, so yeah, 22.5 Degree arc.


Current Proposed Rules Project: Orkish AC-130 Spekta Gunship!

WAAAGH Sparky!
1400 (ish) - On the rebound!
Kommander Sparks DKoK
1000 (ish) - Now on the backburner

- Men, you're lucky men. Soon, you'll all be fighting for your planet. Many of you will be dying for your planet. A few of you will be put through a fine mesh screen for your planet. They will be the luckiest of all.  
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Sparkadia wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If they are hull mounted they have a 45 degree arc or fire, as per page 72

Including if they were able to shoot through themselves, so yeah, 22.5 Degree arc.


No, it is a 45 degree arc, the rules on this are very clear.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






 DeathReaper wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If they are hull mounted they have a 45 degree arc or fire, as per page 72

Including if they were able to shoot through themselves, so yeah, 22.5 Degree arc.


No, it is a 45 degree arc, the rules on this are very clear.


A gun needs LoS before it can shoot. If the tank's hull blocks LoS, it cannot shoot at whatever target is on the other side.

2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Does it say "45 degrees arc with the mid point being in the front of the gun"? If not, then it can shoot 45.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






 TheCustomLime wrote:
Does it say "45 degrees arc with the mid point being in the front of the gun"? If not, then it can shoot 45.


range and LoS is always measured from the gun barrel, see BRB.

2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Sir Arun wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If they are hull mounted they have a 45 degree arc or fire, as per page 72

Including if they were able to shoot through themselves, so yeah, 22.5 Degree arc.


No, it is a 45 degree arc, the rules on this are very clear.


A gun needs LoS before it can shoot. If the tank's hull blocks LoS, it cannot shoot at whatever target is on the other side.

Of course it needs Line of Sight, but I do not see you point.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






my point is that despite the gun having a RAW 45° arc for being hull mounted, practically speaking it is only half that (see above image in the pic below)

as otherwise if you just took the 45° arc, it would be able to shoot the 2 enemy models within the arc, but in reality they are blocked by the vehicle's hull (lower image in the pic below)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:12:36


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Ottawa, Canada

The diagram in the rule book shows the centre line of the 45' arc being parallel to the barrel of the gun. There is no precedent to move that centre line around.

Technically it would be a hair more than 22.5' usable LoS (45' degree total LoS) because the barrel is slightly spaced away from the hull.
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

The door does block a bit, bit the gun is slightly higher than the track-guard, so it's not quite as limited as the first diagram shows.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
[Thumb - Taurrox.jpg]


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






Further adding to the confusion is that p. 73 of the BRB doesnt let the 45° arc triangle start from the tip of the Lascannon (or even one of the HBs) barrel, but rather from the vehicle's hull.

edit: your diagram makes more sense than mine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:27:39


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*

You're taking 45* from either side, for a 90* total.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:31:15


 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






 grendel083 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*


-.-

2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 grendel083 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*

No it isn't, that's a 45.

A 90 Degree would look like this:

[Thumb - Taurrox1.jpg]


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 DeathReaper wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*

No it isn't, that's a 45.

A 90 Degree would look like this:


Wouldn't that actually be a 180 degree arc with the line facing directly forward being the center of the arc?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:50:50


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 DeathReaper wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*

No it isn't, that's a 45.

A 90 Degree would look like this:

That's 90* to the left.
If you add in the movement to the right, you now have a 180* swivel.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Ghaz wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You drew that incorrectly.

It should look like this, as this is a 45 degree arc.
That's a 90*

No it isn't, that's a 45.

A 90 Degree would look like this:


Wouldn't that actually be a 180 degree arc with the line facing directly forward being the center of the arc?

No, the Black lines show the total arc.
 grendel083 wrote:
That's 90* to the left.
If you add in the movement to the right, you now have a 180* swivel.

There is no movement to the right, the Black lines show the total arc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 19:11:36


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool


This is a 45* arc.

The grey area shows what can be seen within the arc, as part of the Hull limits this slightly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
There is no movement to the right, the Black lines show the total arc.
Just because the hull is in the way? Citation required, because that's way wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 19:17:42


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The BRB only says 45 degree arc, so I drew a 45 degree arc.

You drew one as well.

both legal.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 DeathReaper wrote:
The BRB only says 45 degree arc, so I drew a 45 degree arc.

You drew one as well.

both legal.
There's an example picture in the rulebook showing a 45* hull mounted arc off a Leman Russ. It's 45* total, 22.5* movement to either side.
By removing several degrees of movement from one direction (that would otherwise be blocked by the hull) and applying it to the other (ie: rotating the arc), you are increasing the swivel range that a weapon otherwise cannot have. That's dangerously close to bending the rules for advantage
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Except the example picture is for a front mounted hull weapon.

There are no examples of side mounted hull weapons.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






The citation for a vehicle's own hull blocking LoS of one of its weapons can be found in the first paragraph under the headline "Vehicle weapons and Line of Sight" on page 72 of the BRB.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 19:56:15


 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the example picture is for a front mounted hull weapon.

There are no examples of side mounted hull weapons.
Why would the facing matter? The arc is still drawn from the barrel in the same way no matter where the gun is located.

There are no seperate rules based on location, only one rule that covers all hull mounted weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 20:18:22


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the example picture is for a front mounted hull weapon.

There are no examples of side mounted hull weapons.

No, it is for a hull mounted weapon, don't make up distinctions that do not exist.

They have 45 degrees total arc, measured either side of the centre point. True for all weapons.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

nosferatu1001 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the example picture is for a front mounted hull weapon.

There are no examples of side mounted hull weapons.

No, it is for a hull mounted weapon, don't make up distinctions that do not exist.

They have 45 degrees total arc, measured either side of the centre point. True for all weapons.


Though I wish this was in writing I believe this is the correct interpretation. A 45 degrees arc means the gun can swivel along a 45 degrees arc with its modeled position being the center point.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the example picture is for a front mounted hull weapon.

There are no examples of side mounted hull weapons.



Show us where "front hull mount" or "side mounted hull" is defined.


I'll wait...

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






You wound have 45* from each barrel(because we really do not know how to handle multiple barrels, especially when split up like this other than 45* from any barrel).

It would be as in grendel's image(including into the small triangle as fire able); because you must show 45* from the whole weapon(as his does, the fulcrum of the angle is just further back on the model), and a horizontal arc does not mean in any 1 direction but rather both total.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Though I wish this was in writing I believe this is the correct interpretation. A 45 degrees arc means the gun can swivel along a 45 degrees arc with its modeled position being the center point.

Yet there is nothing in the rules that actually says this.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
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