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**Exergy**

godswildcard wrote:
So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...

A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?

Old caltrops were 1 caltrop per 3 reavers and cost 20 points. Expect them to stay 1 per 3, or even 1 per unit and to be 20 or more points(more than another reaver)

So it might be 9 reavers, with 3 caltrops, would be 6 str4 hits and 3d6 str6 hits.

it might be less, we dont know.

**blaktoof**

9 reavers will kill 9 tac marines if the tac marines do not have any upgrades(ie they cost 40% less) and do not shoot the reavers at all before they assault. Given reavers are not making a first turn assault this is of course unlikely.

9 Tac marines that are plain (something you will probably never see on a table top) would still be able to get up to 3 rounds of shooting versus reavers depending on assault distance rolled,

ie 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving up rapid firing, then overwatch.

1 round shooting = 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, if jinking 1 casaulty

repeat for 2 casualties

rapid fire for total of 4 casualties, overwatch for 1.5 casualties (will be nice and round to 1) so reavers now have 4 models from starting 5.

lets say all three caltrops survived, so average is rounded up to 2 rends, 1 str4 hit and 8 str6 hits, which is 2 casualties plus average 5.5 saves to be made, will round up to 6 saves to be made, average is 2 fails so 4 marine casualties.

we now have assault between 4 str3 WS4 T3 4+ save models and 5 str4 WS4 T4 3+ save models

averages show marines winning.

thats 9 unupgraded tac marines versus 9 upgraded reavers, or 136 pts versus 204 pts of dark eldar.

FWIW if the marine player had 1 less round of baiting the reavers, the results would be assault with 5 reavers versus 5 tac marines, still favoring the tac marines.

**Red Corsair**

Spoiler:

It was 10, there was just little point in taking the 10th man.

Also there is some huge dreaming in this thread about these HoW attacks. You need to make initial b2b contact, your probably going to hide your caltrops from shooting thus making them pointless. Otherwise my 5 man combat squads that usually run with a flamer or combi flamer will slow roast the caltrops on the way in with wall of flame.

I can see reavers as small maelstrom grabbers with a suicide heatlance but trying to make anything work as an assault unit in 7th is difficult before you even start considering single wound cheap models. Thats why I don't understand the surprise by most posters that wyches and hellions also are lack luster. If wyches were 7ppm they would still be a wasted slot option, and in order to make them killy in assault they would need a MASSIVE overhaul which would make them more expensive and thus still a dead option. 7th killed those units and I don't care how much dreaming people do, nothing in this release was going to make naked T3 assaulter good lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

These arguments are so futile. Reavers are eldar jetbikes and can be anywhere in a turn so more then likely a tac squad will get one turn plus overwatch. better question is whether you can jink from overwatch? Either way I think the FA slot will now have much better options. Heck even an empty venom is better point for point IMO. People arguing in favor of the HoW have clearly never tried to set up a charge with that rule in mind let alone relied on it. It really hard making b2b contact with each model on the initial charge especially with those awful jetbike bases.

**blaktoof**

I agree the above arguement is futile more or less, however ultimately the point is you are looking at -usually- at least1 round of shooting plus 1 round of overwatch before you try to get a charge off- which we both agree on.

I think we also see how silly it is to assume a 9 man tac squad as you pointed out two 5 man squads with flamer and combi flamer in each. Which ultimately results in more dead reavers than the example I posted.

the end result is HoW on reavers being improved, is no where nearly as competitive as bladevaning was before.

**mercury14**

Blak, that scenario is pretty meaningless since combats like that don't occur in isolation but in the context of a much larger battle.

**blaktoof**

mercury14 wrote:
Blak, that scenario is pretty meaningless since combats like that don't occur in isolation but in the context of a much larger battle.

then don't post nonsense like:

They're about the same given upgrades.

But it also doesn't matter because 9 reavers with caltrops will still beat 9 Tac Marines

.

if you don't want to talk about things in isolation.

**mercury14**

I was referring to those units in a CC together, not enacting a non-existent scenario where they're dueling from across the map....

**blaktoof**

You were referring to two isolated units that end up in CC together without one of the units being touched prior to the assault, which is enacting a non-existent isolated scenario...

**Red Corsair**

mercury14 wrote:
I was referring to those units in a CC together, not enacting a non-existent scenario where they're dueling from across the map....

To be fair you were in fact playing that same futile game, just in a much less thorough way. Units never just appear in CC.

I think we can agree Reavers are different and a bit worse, but also cheaper so it is more of a sideways movement in power. Now there is some reason for AT weapons on them at least. I think it is the other options in FA that invalidate them competitively. Still ace models at least

**mercury14**

blaktoof wrote:
You were referring to two isolated units that end up in CC together without one of the units being touched prior to the assault, which is enacting a non-existent isolated scenario...

You never see untouched units at like the top of turn two?

**SarisKhan**

Wait, since DTs are going to be FA choices now, it's possible to stick a lone Archon in a Venom? Not that it makes much sense, but it's possible, right?

**mercury14**

SarisKhan wrote:
Wait, since DTs are going to be FA choices now, it's possible to stick a lone Archon in a Venom? Not that it makes much sense, but it's possible, right?

DE ded transports are FA? Is this confirmed?

**Wulfmar**

The new Archons pose is too static and awkward for my liking. The crafting and detailing is excellent, I'm not going to disagree on that point - but I certainly don't like the pose. Who stands bolt upright with their arms crossed so high? It's an entirely unnatural, awkward position that doesn't sit with the arrogant and confident (and therefore seeming relaxed pose) I have grown to expect from the artwork and previous Archon model - which I very much like.

I feel the same way about the new Haemonculus model - rather than the creepy versions previously provided, we now have this emo-esque, big footed drip of a character. Once again very detailed but lacking the sinister aspect seen previously in the models. I hate to say it, all I can see is this guy from spiderman 3

This aside, that new bomber looks beautiful and the bloodbrides look dynamic, attractive yet sinister - they hit the nail on the head there.

I only hope that the codex is good - as after tearing out both the Duke and the Lady (the two characters my army was based around) I'm frankly disinterested at the moment.

**ClockworkZion**

Wulfmar wrote:
Who stands bolt upright with their arms crossed so high?

Vampires?

**PhillyT**

Come on, it is a classic play off stylized Eastern Martial Arts poses and stances. You guys are fuddy duddys.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Someone on The Dark City has got their codex early and is answering questions. This is true, he took pictures and sent them to the mod to prove he has them.

I'm afraid to say most of the rumors were true, no buffs for Wyches and No Sky Boards or Bikes for our Archons. Yes, that means the hundreds of lovingly converting Barons are downgraded to Helliarchs :(

But not one to dwell on the sad side, he has found a hidden gem among the heep and i thought it might brighten your day somewhat. Grotesques now don't explode when left alone, they have a very similar statline but come with Rampage and a Flesh Gauntlet + Close Combat Weapon base! Yikes! The Flesh Gauntlet is S user Ap - Poison 4+ Lethal Dose, which causes instant death on the to wound roll of a 6. So 3 attacks base, +1 for 2 CC weapons + 1 for charging +D3 for Rampage + 1 for Rage means in the optimum situation each Grot is throwing out 9(!) Str 6 (Furious Charge) attacks EACH.

Same about the models though, although i could do with a new Talos and the spare parts + Rat Ogres could go a long way...

**gorgon**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Wulfmar wrote:
Who stands bolt upright with their arms crossed so high?

Vampires?

But vampires aren't REAL. Silly goose.

**Wulfmar**

PhillyT wrote:
Come on, it is a classic play off stylized Eastern Martial Arts poses and stances. You guys are fuddy duddys.

A martial arts pose would have been good - instead we got a ballerina

**Extreaminatus**

Wulfmar wrote:
PhillyT wrote:
Come on, it is a classic play off stylized Eastern Martial Arts poses and stances. You guys are fuddy duddys.

A martial arts pose would have been good - instead we got a ballerina

Ballerina's are way more fluid than that pose suggests.

We got a sarcophagus lid.

**Hollismason**

Still wondering about the deep strike, that's a big deal on whether they have a intertial or what becuase that gak is bonkers.

**ClockworkZion**

A member of the Dark City has the codex and has PM'd the mods with proof to confirm.

Talos are 1-3 in a unit.

Cronos the same but cant mix with Talos.

Kabalites are the same allthough PGL is as rumoured soulblight (no way of getting defensive grenades). 8 points and may take a raider even though a unit is 10+.

Razorwing is 130 points, may only take nightshields (which gives steath) and is a fast choice (not heavy). Its not a vector dancer :-( Dark Lances cost 5 more points each than a disintegrators.

Q: Can a unit champion for jetbikes get or take a power axe? any Power weapon?
A: Only power swords and Agonisers which is AP 3, poison (4+)

Q: What would the total cost of 5 scourges with 4 haywire guns cost?
A: 120

Q: Wyches... 2 attacks base or 1? (extra hand weapon and charge = 4 attacks each?)
A: 1 attack

Q: Do Kaivex (Exarch) Powers still exist?
A: No

Q: Did Ravagers lose Aerial Assault? Still AV11?
A: Yes and still AV11

Q: Is the Haemonculus (the small/cheap one 1 - 3 choice) gone and fully replaced by the ancient?
A: He is gone. Ancient is in.

Q: Are there any formations (like the Tyranid Dataslates or the Apoc book formations) in the book?
A: 1 formation

Q: Did the Lhamean keep her "give 2+ poison to archon" special rule?
A: No

Q: Did Talos get any new movement rules?
A: No

Q: Grotesques, same stats, points and options? Still blow up if not joined by an independent character?
A: Grotesques are the new hit, I think. Same stats but.... they do not blow up and they got Flesh gauntlets + ccw and Rampage. Nice!! Flesh Gauntlets: S as user, AP-, Lethal Dose, poison (4+).

Lethal Dose: 6 to wound gives ID.

Q: Are scourge rumours true, squads of 5 can take 4 heavy weapons?
A: Yes

Q: 6 fast attack slots?
A: In the "Realspace Raiders Detachment" can you get 6 fast choices, yes. Giving 5+ cover save to troops and 6+ cover save too all others units in the detachment int the first turn AND any turn with night fighting.

Q: can other units enter via webway portal once deepstriked in?
A: any unit the Archon/succubus/heamon that has it have joint and their transport. Thats DS without scattering.

Q: does webwat portal use same small blast template as before(really hope my webway portals get used!)
A: No blast.

Q: Transport capacity of vehicles the same?
A: Yes

Q: Can any if the HQs take a bike or sky board?
A: No and no

Q: are there still trueborn in there and can they still take the same weapons they did in the old dex
A: Yes and Yes.

Q: are mandrakes better?
A: Much better, stealth, shrouded and baleblast from start. Baleblast: assault 2, St 4. AP4, soulblaze

Q: what got nerfed in terms of units
A: Wyches are dead no buffs, no haywire, Dodge only in Fight subphase. Incubi cant get grenades.

Q: can venoms still take double splinter cannons?
A: Yes but can only get Grisly trophies and chain snares.... no shields. SUCKS!!

Q: what defenses did our vehicles get ?, with the removal of Flickerfields to everything other than venoms.
A: Night shields give stealth and the new detachment gives cover in the first turn.

Q: how much is a shadowfield now?/ who can take them
A: 4+ inv, 40 points, only archon

Q: What do WWP's do now? and how many points?
A: gives DS without scatter, 35 points, archon/succubus/ heamon can take it.

Q: Can the flyers take flickerfields?
A: No

Q: Do wyches have any chance to survive overwatch and raider explosion? or nothing has changed?
A: No change

Q: Which units have access to Haywire weapons?
A: only wych champion, succubus, archon

Q: Are Harlequins still in the book?
A: Only in fluff, no entry

Q: wait are the shadowfields now a 4+ invul?
A: No, sorry, I mixed it up. Clonefield is 4+ inv. Shadowfield is allmost the same. It works until the end of the phase inwhich you fail the 2+ inv.

**Colpicklejar**

I like the shadowfield shorting out at the end of the phase instead of immediately.

Also the dude on Dark City claims that there were no changes to the trueborn weapons options, meaning (I assume) that they can still take shardcarbines.

**mercury14**

Grotesques just got real.

They wound on a 3+ with reroll against S4 or lower opponents.

And they insta-death on a 6

And they get 5+D3 attacks when charging with rampage.

**Mr Morden**

Looks like they have gone for the flesh cult as the primary element of the Dark Eldar and screw the rest

well looks like final nail in the coffin for Wyches and Incubi worse

**ClockworkZion**