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I play a pure Iyanden Ghost Warrior army. I love the look and fluff of the Hemlock Wraithfighter. I have wanted to field it and wanted it to be good, but it just wasn't... If you don't know why, look here

With the changes to Psychic Powers, there's no question now that it can Terrify the turn it arrives. But what makes this go from a nice, fluffy fighter to a swarm killer is the new Psychic Focus rule. Psychic Pilots still benefit from this rule, which means Wraithfighter have just gained Shriek!

Granted, it's range is still short - same as the Heavy D-scythe - but with the speed and maneuverability of the Wraithfighter, that's not a serious issue, but being a psychic attack, it can be used on separate targets (which is nice) and helps with the Wraithfighter primary weakness - survivability. It's low AV, combined with Blast weapons, meant that you were left with the options of "Jink and be useless" or "Shoot once and die". Shriek being a [b]malediction[\b] isn't effected by Snap Shots, so now it can come on the board, wreck havoc, and still have a decent chance of surviving while also having a decent chance of wrecking more havoc the next turn.

I'm really excited that the new edition turned a less than mediocre unit into a serious threat, and look forward to find new nuggets and gems hidden between the covers of the new rule book, as well as new uses for all my models.

Has anyone else found some awesome, complete turn-arounds for what were, otherwise, less than stellar units?

Can the Hemlock take holofields for a 3+ jink?

Psychic shriek is a witchfire, not a malediction. And Terrify got nerfed.

It still has the problem of being easily killed by interceptors.

I guess it's better now, but it's still rather unimpressive.

Hmmm, while Terrify no longer drops fearless-ness it DOES drop LD by 1. Combine that with Shriek and you've got some decent wounds forming...

Does psychis focus even work with models that got a fixed power?
I'm not 100% sure that it does.

No, I think from the wording you have to generate a power to qualify for the primaris.

Since the FAQ's came out I think this is viable and will definitelly use a hemlock wraithfighter with the primaris power to wreck some stuff

also fits with ulthwé

 ashikenshin wrote:
Since the FAQ's came out I think this is viable and will definitelly use a hemlock wraithfighter with the primaris power to wreck some stuff

also fits with ulthwé

Where is that clarified in the FAQs? (not trying to be rude, I am actually looking for it)

If this is true it is the most AWESOME news I have ever heard!

I have an exodite force and I have a flying dragon hemlocke I have never gotten to use, now I want to make a second as it is my FAVORITE unit in the eldar force.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Since the FAQ's came out I think this is viable and will definitelly use a hemlock wraithfighter with the primaris power to wreck some stuff

also fits with ulthwé

Where is that clarified in the FAQs? (not trying to be rude, I am actually looking for it)

I'm just using the GK and Tyranid FAQs to see what they meant with the focus rule. Grey Knights who don't roll on their powers, but have a set power, gained their primaris power.

quoting from someone else:

"Note the errata for the Tyranid Dominion power. There is only one creature in the Tyranid arsenal that is a Psyker that does not have Synapse, and that is the Broodlord. The errata for Dominion now grants the unit Synapse if it didn't have it before. Ergo, the Broodlord gets Dominion and can use it to temporarily become a synapse creature. "

I think it's safe to assume that the Hemlock gains it's primaris power.

 ashikenshin wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Since the FAQ's came out I think this is viable and will definitelly use a hemlock wraithfighter with the primaris power to wreck some stuff

also fits with ulthwé

Where is that clarified in the FAQs? (not trying to be rude, I am actually looking for it)

I'm just using the GK and Tyranid FAQs to see what they meant with the focus rule. Grey Knights who don't roll on their powers, but have a set power, gained their primaris power.

quoting from someone else:

"Note the errata for the Tyranid Dominion power. There is only one creature in the Tyranid arsenal that is a Psyker that does not have Synapse, and that is the Broodlord. The errata for Dominion now grants the unit Synapse if it didn't have it before. Ergo, the Broodlord gets Dominion and can use it to temporarily become a synapse creature. "

I think it's safe to assume that the Hemlock gains it's primaris power.

Okay I see.

Until it states we get Shriek I don't think we do get it RAW.

But if it does that would be a nice buff to flyer's that already don't get used.

I'm a little lost here... isn't the hemlock's power Horrify from the Runes of Battle Tree? No change should have occurred to it, as it's not a book power. So it should still be -3 Ld. Or am I missing something?

The Helmock gets Terrify, not Horrify. It is a telepathy power, and so the argument is that they should get the Primaris, psychic shriek, because 100% of their powers come from that tree, and grey knights get their primaris from powers they did not "generate".

I, myself, am still unconvinced. While there IS a precedent for the situation, there is still no SOLID RAW granting them the primaris. I could see it being ruled either way, tbh.

EDIT: Upon further inspection, in the rulebook units already knowing a power is listed under "Generating Psychic Powers", and it then says "otherwise they generate a random power. to randomly generate a power...." Since it always includes the word "random" when describing how to generate random powers, this leads me to believe that there are two ways of "generating" powers. "Automatically", and "Randomly". Using this reasoning, it does seem like the Wraithfighter gets the primaris, Shriek as "Automatic generation" still counts as generation. This is obviously open to different interpretations though.

Upon further further inspection - the wording of terrify has changed to possibly cause TWO morale tests. One at the end of your psychic phase and one at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. YMDC thread started on this here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597517.page

ive read and re-read the psychic rule section like 3 times now and I do not see the confusion?

It says if your psychic powers come from one discipline then you get the primaris, what is the confusion? It mentions no where in no way that specific over random institutes this rule, the rule just says if all your powers come from one discipline then you get the primaris.

The only rule for primaris in the random category has to do with removing the focus rule when you use powers from multiple disciplines....

what is the confusion?

Theorius - it does not say "if your powers come from one discipline". it says "if your powers are *generated* from one discipline". The confusion comes from what the word "generate" means. Does it mean you have to roll for them? if so then powers known automatically are not generated. they are already known, and therefore are unaffected by psychic focus.

Bojazz wrote:
Theorius - it does not say "if your powers come from one discipline". it says "if your powers are *generated* from one discipline". The confusion comes from what the word "generate" means. Does it mean you have to roll for them? if so then powers known automatically are not generated. they are already known, and therefore are unaffected by psychic focus.

under "generate power" it lists both specific and random, still dont see the issue? is it because the sentence itself doesnt use the word generate? even though its in the preceding sentence? but the sentence for random uses the word?

that is pretty thin....

My post just before yours brings up the "automatic generation" point as well. But it is far from being solid RAW.

their main reasoning is that it says "sometimes psykers will know a power. OTHERWISE, they *generate* random powers". The word 'otherwise' implying that the two are mutually exclusive and the fact that the word "generate" is only used in one of the two options leads people to believe that automatically knowing powers is not generating powers.

There are points to both sides, and I personally cannot dismiss either side of the argument. It is definitely a grey area open to interpretation, and interpretations always vary.

the entire entry is called generating psychic powers?

if they wanted to make a distinction between the two there is a much better way.....

Another valid point, also brought up in my post just before your original. Still - there IS room for doubt, as is common in GW rules. Personally, I will play they they do indeed get the primaris, but I will gladly roll off for "most important rule" if my opponent wants to argue otherwise.

Assuming that the hemlock does gain psychic shriek, that would make it quite a nice weapon now. It would finally be able to utilize spirit mark from a spirit seer, which would come in real handy if he had to jink. Also, with the changes to the vehicle damage table, they won't be getting one shotted out of the sky as much as they used to. The new damage table coupled with spirit stones should see it survive much longer than it used to.

anything that helps out my buddy hemlock is a friend of mine!


as to the ambiguity of games workshop rules, i usually agree, but this version, so far, has been the best attempt I have ever seen by them to write clear and concise step by step rules.

they cleared up infiltrating characters in units quite nicely!

Well my thought process for this not working is this:

1) You say GK's create a precedent for preset powers getting the primaris, but in their FAQ it explicitly states that GK's get banishment where as in our FAQ it mentions nothing.

2) It says in Psychic focus 'if a Psyker GENERATES all of his powers from...'

I don't think preset powers count as generation. Yes under the heading 'generating psychic powers' it mentions specific powers, but I think that specific powers are different from generated as it then goes on to say 'Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers'

This otherwise seems to me, to imply that generated powers are different to specific.

Within Psychic focus it also says 'even if he can only generate one' which implies that generation is an active thing and not a specific thing.

That's because GKs lost their codex powers, so they had to FAQ the 7th rulebook versions back in. That has nothing to do with the way Hemlock's generate powers.

Yes it does. Ashiekeshin even tried to use the GK FAQ to imply the Hemlock was affected by it.

The Hemlock doesn't generate powers.

There are generated powers, and specific powers. The Hemlock has specified powers, so doesn't get the primaris.

Your 2nd point is relevant, your first one isn't. Ashieskeshin did use the GK FAQ to prove a point and from where I'm standing, it's a very valid point. I just made the distinction that the fact they are EXPLICITLY stated that they get Banishment and Hammerhand (see, they state both, why would they do that if it was relevant for this Primaris discussion?) because they lost those powers from their own codex. They had to get them back in somehow. That isn't relevant to this topic.

uhm guys, I think you are not seeing the big point...

As from the Psychic Phase section of the book:

Mastery Levels \ Number of psychic powers

This clearly state that a psyker need to generate his powers : ANY psyker must do a, let's call it, "generate powers" action following the rules in "Generating psychic powers"
In here "generate" means "do what the rule Generating psychic powers tell you", not "create", "choose", "roll a die"


Generating psychic powers

now they rule out how (and when: at the beginning of the game) a psyker generate it's powers :

- if a psyker have power listed in it's Army List Entry he begin the game with those power
- if there are no power listed in the Army List Entry then you roll dice


The Hemlock is a psyker. Like any other psyker it must generate it's powers ad the begining of the game. The Hemlock have Terrify listed in his Armly List Entry so it generate it's power using the 1st method described in "Generating psychic powers" rule : always generate Terrify

A Farseer is a psyker. Like any other psyker it must generate it's powers ad the begining of the game. A Farseer do not have powers listed in his Armly List Entry so it generate it's power using the 2nd method described in "Generating psychic powers" rule : generate what the Dice God want


Psychic Focus

"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline [...]" he get the primaris for free.

In there "generates" does not means "by rolling dice" but "using the Generating psychic powers rule"


To cut it short, there is no psyker that does not generate it's powers. All do. So all could get Psychic Focus if their powers come from the same Discipline

Jacob29 wrote:
Well my thought process for this not working is this:

1) You say GK's create a precedent for preset powers getting the primaris, but in their FAQ it explicitly states that GK's get banishment where as in our FAQ it mentions nothing.

2) It says in Psychic focus 'if a Psyker GENERATES all of his powers from...'

I don't think preset powers count as generation. Yes under the heading 'generating psychic powers' it mentions specific powers, but I think that specific powers are different from generated as it then goes on to say 'Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers'

This otherwise seems to me, to imply that generated powers are different to specific.

Within Psychic focus it also says 'even if he can only generate one' which implies that generation is an active thing and not a specific thing.

You are putting emphasis on the wrong word. In the part you quoted it does indeed say "Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers." But instead of emphasising generates, you should be emphasising the word "Random".

Hemlocks do indeed get the primaris power because nowhere in the rules does it say they are not generating a power. Rolling a dice for a power is simply generating randomly, not generating specifically.

The entire process for both random and specific generation falls under the title "Generating Psychic Powers". This tells me that either way you look at it, wether the power is specific or random, it is generated. And that is the way I will play it until a FAQ comes out that says otherwise.

Yeah I guess I presented my argument badly but others have done so more eloquently.

Also, the Tyranid Dominion power and the FAQ proves the case for "preset generated powers" giving the psyker the primaris.

Nah, the whole section "Generating psychic powers" is a stronger case.

I don't think any other unit in 40k appart from these two are subject to this confusion right?

 Garion wrote:
uhm guys, I think you are not seeing the big point...

As from the Psychic Phase section of the book:

Mastery Levels \ Number of psychic powers

This clearly state that a psyker need to generate his powers : ANY psyker must do a, let's call it, "generate powers" action following the rules in "Generating psychic powers"
In here "generate" means "do what the rule Generating psychic powers tell you", not "create", "choose", "roll a die"


Generating psychic powers

now they rule out how (and when: at the beginning of the game) a psyker generate it's powers :

- if a psyker have power listed in it's Army List Entry he begin the game with those power
- if there are no power listed in the Army List Entry then you roll dice


The Hemlock is a psyker. Like any other psyker it must generate it's powers ad the begining of the game. The Hemlock have Terrify listed in his Armly List Entry so it generate it's power using the 1st method described in "Generating psychic powers" rule : always generate Terrify

A Farseer is a psyker. Like any other psyker it must generate it's powers ad the begining of the game. A Farseer do not have powers listed in his Armly List Entry so it generate it's power using the 2nd method described in "Generating psychic powers" rule : generate what the Dice God want


Psychic Focus

"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline [...]" he get the primaris for free.

In there "generates" does not means "by rolling dice" but "using the Generating psychic powers rule"


To cut it short, there is no psyker that does not generate it's powers. All do. So all could get Psychic Focus if their powers come from the same Discipline

what this man said!

good break down and this is exactly as I read it.