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koooaei wrote: It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...
So....Bad moons?
They used to be BS3 y'know.
Even had a BS5+ Warboss, epic shooty.
Be very worried if Berserkers start carrying rifle sized or larger guns in their next iteration.
So...Teeth of Khorne?
World Eater Havocs who could only take Heavy Bolters or Autocannons, because any other weapon didn't spill enough blood in his name.
No not WE Teeth of Khorne (those I'm well aware of)
I meant Basic Berserkers carrying guns and having shooting oriented special rules.
Because I've had a suspicion that GW's design team is purposefully diminishing assault's role in the game.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
koooaei wrote: It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...
So....Bad moons?
They used to be BS3 y'know.
Even had a BS5+ Warboss, epic shooty.
Be very worried if Berserkers start carrying rifle sized or larger guns in their next iteration.
So...Teeth of Khorne?
World Eater Havocs who could only take Heavy Bolters or Autocannons, because any other weapon didn't spill enough blood in his name.
No not WE Teeth of Khorne (those I'm well aware of)
I meant Basic Berserkers carrying guns and having shooting oriented special rules.
Because I've had a suspicion that GW's design team is purposefully diminishing assault's role in the game.
Ah, well it's not like Orks were never pure assault to begin with, what with being able to take bolters and such before. (Of course I'm a Bad moonz Fan So I am a bit biased here in my enjoyment of Flash Gits and Dakka orks)
There's no use in complaining. The codex is terrible in every single way. We know it, GW knows it, (they even acknowledged how bad the 4.0 dex was) but GW doesn't care. If they cared they would've given us a quality codex but they didn't. If you want to get actual quality rules for your legion you can play with the HH books where the devs actually care about Chaos and aren't just pumping out Space Marine fanwank. It's a really good game and I highly recommend it for those interested.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/31 21:16:11
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
ansacs wrote: I
Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best ICCC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.
Number 2 of the good ol' "Stop Complaining" suggestions. As I've said in this very thread, it's either "Don't play your build, play MoN" or "Don't play CSM if you want to play CSM".
Anyway, I've just ordered some Oblits. The purportedly best HS choice of the CSM Codex should improve the performance of my army. They are likely to supplant my Lascannon Preds, but no one has said that I can't use both in the same army...
Drukhari - 4.7k
Space Marines - 3.1k
Chaos Space Marines - 2.9k
Harlequins - 0.9k
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
I recommend putting spikey bits on a drop pod, showing up and saying it costs 35 points, and seeing what your opponents say.
If they say, "cool!" you're in good shape.
If they say, "um, no." then eBay your CSM, sit in your car and listen to REM's "Everybody Hurts" on repeat for 20 minutes, then go find a more well-written/balanced game to play.
That's what I did, and I'm really happy except for the fist marks in my steering wheel.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I think the key problem is that GW is to some extent on the horns of a dilemma. The current CSM dex actually has a lot of available units, I'm not arguing their value or effectiveness just that there are a large number. There are numerous choices in every category but troops.
Now for the fluffy player, this is irrelevant. They'll be thinking "OK I'm a Slaaneshi so I would never pick Khorne berzerkers" or whatever. That desire for fluffiness means they will obviously ignore or refuse to use many of the available units. Thus to a fluffy player the dex seems ridiculously restrictive.
However, if you abandon all fluff and simply pick the units which are most effective in combination the dex is not bad, there is a lot to choose from and thoughtful players can put together a powerful, competitive, force. BUT they can only do that by ignoring the fluff and simply choosing the best.
Personally I am a fluffy player. I suppose luckily I like Nurgle and always have. However, I choose my army based on the fluff and based on what models I like rather than what will win.
Personally I have no issue with the daemon engines, I think they make sense. However, I think what we're seeing here are players who want to be able to choose a force which they feel is BOTH fluffy AND competitive.
I would propose a dex in which the various gods get differing options. However, this would open the door to 'undivided' (whatever the hell that is!?!?!) forces being allowed a massive selection of horrendously strong units.
The problem as I see it is that GW have abandoned the ideas of the early days, such as Khorne hates Slaanesh, etc. So there is 'undivided' which makes zero sense to me. How can Abaddon have the favour of all the gods despite them being deadly rivals???
I would have a dex which had loads and loads of units in it but which had restrictions based on the power followed. You could then take allied formations to choice, etc. Say a full FOC of Nurgle and a Slaaneshi allied contingent. I can't explain this as I want but hopefully you get the picture.
JubbJubbz wrote: This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh_Eaters#.U4liP_nxr0E Because eating people is something loyalist don't do? I am not talking about their actions but rather representing their military tactics on the table top. Tell me what units night lords field that does not fit with the SM codex?
Practically all of them? How about cc preferring tacticals? anything coming close to resembling terror tactics? Chaos infused units like berserkers ala Uzas? Bleeding eyes so twisted they can't even walk, shreiking with amplified vox to unsettle their opponents? Almost nothing in the SM dex can be used to accurately represent the Night Lords. This is why its so frustrating. People who have no clue about any aspect of chaos just telling you to play with loyalists who are entirely different. There's a reason they have different codexes. Even if SM could represent CSM, which it cant, there's already a separate CSM codex with a pretty strong following. Why not make it a decent representation of the armies its supposed to? Or everyone can just play with the same dex like you suggest, you honestly think that would be better?
JubbJubbz wrote: They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.
Because the CSM sorcerers and daemons get spell familiars. So where everyone else has a 50% chance on 5 dice to get a WC3 power off the CSM spell familiar psyker has a 75% chance. It makes them able to throw out way more powers than other psykers. You can even make the sorcerer into a daemon using the voices from crimson slaughter and use malefic powers only getting perils on double 6 or use a winged CSM daemon prince w/ spell familiar to summon daemons (though the sorcerer is probably a better buy). Flying MC are actually pretty tough now and you can just continuously fly on behind LoS blockers, conjure units, fly to the board edge next turn, conjure again, and run off the table again.
Anything not a daemon takes perils on any doubles. When using summoning which is WC3. 5 dice gives you a 50% chance to manifest but a 90% chance to perils. With a daemon it is 50% to manifest and 20% to perils. With a CSM spell familiar 5 dice gives you the same odds to manifest as 7 dice for anyone else.
You still don't have the warp charge to back up summons unless you are taking demons. So again you're left to trying to prop up the csm codex by shoving in allies. So you're going to plop down 300 points on a prince that requires you bring other psykers to feed it warp charge dice and think it'll be good because it can summon 100 pts of demons a turn with a 75% probability? let me know how that works out for you. It works for demons somewhat because they can flood their army with cheap ML3 heralds. It doesn't matter if their tough if they can't do anything worth while.
-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to
I think it's the whole religion thing. Between us Black Templars players, you Sisters players, and the CSM players there ought to be enough gnashing of teeth on the Internet to spawn Aaargh, Chaos God of whining.
On an unreleated note, be careful what you wish for. You might get your Legion tactics like so:
Spoiler:
Night Lords cause Fear to represent their terror tactics.
World Eaters get Crusader and Adamantium Will to represent their anger and their resistance to Psykers (no, I'm totally not stealing this example from anything else ).
Iron Warriors get rerolls to armour pen against buildings to represent their siege expertise.
Death Guard get Slow & Purposeful on everything (yes, including bikes!) and can buy Plague Knives for 3 PPM because who knows how GW thinks?
Thousand Sons get a random table of stuff to roll on, because Tzeentch is fickle.
Word Bearers get rerolls to Morale Tests and can reroll rolls on the Boon chart due to their devotion to Chaos.
Black Legion gets scoring Chosen but has to buy VotLW on everything, as in the supplement.
Emperor's Children get Acute Senses and Fearless, due to being used to extreme sensations.
Alpha Legion gets a Designer's Note telling you to use whatever Legion or Chapter Tactics you damn well please.
Would that still make y'all be as interested in Legion Tactics? Because as a Black Templars player, I can tell you that Chapter Tactics isn't a panacea, and you're not likely to be pleased with them even if you got them. Chapter/Legion Tactics doesn't do squat (no pun intended) if the units they affect aren't up to the task of doing stuff in the first place, unless they're much more powerful than in the current Space Marine Codex.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I apologise for making a suggestion. Silly me, should really stop trying to help spiteful dakkaites.
The problem more comes from it just being a slap to the face reminding many that we are just SM-
That and it's a mockery that CSM are better represented with SM
Well I'm just trying to help and people are going 'oh god typical Space Marine players'
I'll have you know I played Chaos Space Marines since 5th Edition, got the 6th Edition codex and scrapped my CSMs for Black Templars.
Also, many warbands (such as the Iron Warriors) /are/ better represented using the Space Marines codex, so stop having a go, I'm not trying to mock anyone.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I apologise for making a suggestion. Silly me, should really stop trying to help spiteful dakkaites.
The problem more comes from it just being a slap to the face reminding many that we are just SM-
That and it's a mockery that CSM are better represented with SM
Well I'm just trying to help and people are going 'oh god typical Space Marine players'
I'll have you know I played Chaos Space Marines since 5th Edition, got the 6th Edition codex and scrapped my CSMs for Black Templars.
Also, many warbands (such as the Iron Warriors) /are/ better represented using the Space Marines codex, so stop having a go, I'm not trying to mock anyone.
Naw man I get you. It's frustrating either way. Also, I meant more of the CSM book itself. The fact that SM really is largely just CSM+ and represents a vast majority of of not only warbands but legions is always somewhat bitter. And then comes the catch, what you say is TRUE. It really is, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and many more legions and warbands function far more effectively with the SM book than CSM. Then again CSM, Black Templars, and Sisters have to be bitter. It's the faith and all as somebody mentioned!
Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
The problem isn't how powerful the codex is It's how bad the internal balance is. For example, I can take my as-fluffy-as-possible-with-this-codex army of Thousand Sons/Bezerkers/Noise Marines/etc and get my butt handed to me by even the most casual Blood Angels list or I can take the only CSM list that works and kick a casual list's butt. I can't play casual games with this codex. I'm either getting murdered for taking ridiculously over costed units (85% of the codex) or I can bring my mono build and be 'that guy'.
And on a separate note, Tyranids aren't really that bad. Yes, it has some absolutely moronic stuff in the book (Pyrovores, Synapse, Genestealers) but it's a solid book otherwise.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, there is a decent 6th ed fandex around that gives a good shot at accurately representing each of the chaos legions. Uses the 6th ed 'dex as a baseline, does some basic changes (ie. drops warp talons down to a much more reasonable price), and adds special rules to run legions. Really well done.
PM me if you want info on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/01 03:48:07
I'm beginning to wonder if the CSM codex is really a honeypot. A codex designed to draw you in and then force you to purchase a new army because it always seems to suck so much.
Nah, GW has never shown enough competence to accomplish that............................right?
Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
If tiny (1000 marines is insignificant in relation to the setting) Loyalist Chapters get specific traits to represent the differences between armed forces which almost all follow the Codex Astartes to some extent there is no excuse for the Traitor Legions not getting a similar system
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Why do many people say CSM is now warbands not legions and thats why there's no legion traigts.. Warbands are similar to chapters. They come from legions and they don't just simply forget their preferred tactics and methods as soon as a legion splinters into warbands. A warband that came from the Night Lords legion will still fight like Night Lords by and large. Large warbands/renegades that don't have a singular parent legion like the Red Corsairs can have their own "chapter" tactics. The tactics thing is a great and easy way to put a lot of flavor into a book without much extra effort. I would like to see similar not only for CSM but for other armies that have clearly defined factions in the fluff.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 07:27:06
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Only the codex designers and BL writers say that there are no legion armies only warbands made out of squads from different chapters or renegades from different legions. Also am rather sure that all AM players wanted their vendettas not to get nerfed and all the players that had to buy a FW book to use their saber weapon platforms didn't want those to get nerfed in to the ground either , but GW did it anyway. Am not sure if 100% of all chaos players ever wanted legions , am sure that 100% of people who bought the high cost FW books and those 9 saber weapon platforms wanted them to stay unnerfed.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Dembowski and Phill Kelly told they aren't , and they work for GW , so they are right as it is a GW game , not a players game.
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