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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





MarkCron wrote:
 Nilok wrote:

I will ask you more bluntly, please provide the rule or restriction that the Chariot does no benefit from rules affecting the model.
There is nothing I can find in the rules that say USR or Wargear only affects the profile they are purchased for and I can't find anywhere that the chariot does not benefit from rules from either profile.
If we accept that IC USR affects the model from "What Special Rules Do I Have?", then the Chariot would benefit unless there is a restriction.

Your example shows they wanted the rider to be able to challenge as normal if it was a character. It may be that was their intention, but not let the vehicle profile do so. I can accept that if you are trying to argue RAI.


Nilok, I think you have this the wrong way round. In the BRB, you require explicit permission to do something. So, if you aren't specifically allowed to do something you can't do it. In this case, you need to show that:

a) The paragraph

"A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model. For the purposes of characteristics test, always use the Rider's profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot"

and the rest of the Chariot rules, which has *repeated* references to ,and uses of, the separate profiles (clearly indicating that the intention was for these profiles and abilities to remain separate) actually means

"The Chariot and Rider *become* a single model where each of the Chariot and the Rider get each others USRs (even if the USR rule says that isn't allowed) but don't combine their characteristics particularly, if the Rider is a character, the Chariot doesn't become one as well. "

OR

b) Demonstrate that the IC USR can be transferred to another model - I'll take anything you can think of here.

Seriously, isn't the fact that the rulebook specifically has to state that a Rider who is a Character can do an assault enough indication that attributes such as Character *don't* transfer?

If that isn't enough, how do you explain then the following sentence. "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, sucah as Necron's Ever-living speical rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point." (emphasis added). Clearly, GW is still referring to the Rider as a separate "model".

If we want to be REALLY pedantic, in the first para, you could argue that the statement "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model." does not actually state that the Rider and Chariot's MODELS are treated as a single model, only that the PROFILES were treated as a single model. So, now you have to show that a profile = model. And if you do that, you need to get around (b) because you can't transfer USR between models/profiles unless the USR says so.

Fundamentally, this whole debate seems to be about taking a single sentence out of context to make an already broken unit even worse. And I'm saying that as a Cron Player!

col_impact wrote:

MarkCron - your biggest problem is that you are not treating the Chariot as a single model, which by definition you are supposed to. GW is very specifically telling us to mash two profiles together and call it a single model.

I have to agree with col_impact there, I don't think we are arguing the same rules.
I am not being pedantic, I simply want a consistent way the rules are applied. If a rule affects a model, a rule affects a model, if a rule affects a unit, it affects the unit. You are saying the Chariot rules are two different models, it says it is one model and apply the rules as such. A rule that only affect one model can never transfer to a different model, however, a profile is not a model.
USR as you has said they affect the model they are on, if that is the case, then the Chariot must be affected by the IC USR since it is one model.
So to answer your question how the Chariot can get a USR of Wargear from the unit, the Wargear and USR says it affects the model. As you said:
MarkCron wrote:

The ERB pg 640 "What Special Rules Do I Have" refers to "models".

and
PHASE SHIFTER wrote:A model with a Phase Shifter as a 3+ Invulnerable Save.


I have shown your permission, that a USR and Wargear from one profile can affect another profile on the same model. Please provide the restriction that it does not work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 06:42:19


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Perth, Australia

col_impact wrote:
MarkCron wrote:
@col_impact : but the other MODEL doesn't get them.


There is no Other model. There is only one model, the Chariot, and Independent Character is on there until it is FAQed off. GW tells us to resolve the Chariot as if its a single model. You keep treating it like its an Independent Character embarking on a Dedicated Transport with a capactiy of one. That's not the case here. That was 6th Edition. This is a 7th Edition Chariot. There is no more than one model here, and that one model has a dual profile, which is a mashing of the two together, by definition.


There are 2 MODELS, and GW is telling to combine two PROFILES and treat them as part of the Chariot MODEL. Read the paragraph, then look at the example of the PROFILE, which is only characteristics. USR's are given to MODELS, not profiles.

If you like, there is only 1 MODEL (the chariot), it has 2 PROFILES (one for the Rider and one for itself), and the MODEL (ie the Chariot) does not have the Independent Character special rule because the RIDER can't confer that to the MODEL. Ever-Living is a perfect example - it was granted to the RIDER, not the MODEL and in order to be able to use it GW had to write a rule in the rulebook saying that you could. Where is the equivalent rule for the IC USR?

   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





MarkCron wrote:
col_impact wrote:
MarkCron wrote:
@col_impact : but the other MODEL doesn't get them.


There is no Other model. There is only one model, the Chariot, and Independent Character is on there until it is FAQed off. GW tells us to resolve the Chariot as if its a single model. You keep treating it like its an Independent Character embarking on a Dedicated Transport with a capactiy of one. That's not the case here. That was 6th Edition. This is a 7th Edition Chariot. There is no more than one model here, and that one model has a dual profile, which is a mashing of the two together, by definition.


There are 2 MODELS, and GW is telling to combine two PROFILES and treat them as part of the Chariot MODEL. Read the paragraph, then look at the example of the PROFILE, which is only characteristics. USR's are given to MODELS, not profiles.

If you like, there is only 1 MODEL (the chariot), it has 2 PROFILES (one for the Rider and one for itself), and the MODEL (ie the Chariot) does not have the Independent Character special rule because the RIDER can't confer that to the MODEL. Ever-Living is a perfect example - it was granted to the RIDER, not the MODEL and in order to be able to use it GW had to write a rule in the rulebook saying that you could. Where is the equivalent rule for the IC USR?

MarkCron, there is only one model. A profile is not a model.
CHARIOTS wrote:However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model.

The reason one profile can affect the other is because all of the rules save for specific ones for Chariots affect the model.

I will ask you again, please provide a quote or page that restricts a rule affecting a model from applying to a specific profile.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/03 06:56:58


 
   
Made in us
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If Independent Character is so obviously not possibly attributable to a Chariot, then why bother even specifically taking it away in the case of the Chaos Demon Codex. The Chaos Demon codex has to specifically take it away because otherwise the Chaos Chariot would have it. Obviously, when you mash two profiles together into a single model you indeed have two profiles mashed together into a single model and some one has to say "hey now, Independent Character is no longer in effect here" because it being there is a byproduct of the mashing.


I would personally have no problem with any future FAQ or any TO taking away IC from a Chariot. I am just telling you what I think is "Rules as they are," and I am not blurring the conversation with rules as I think they should be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 07:25:08


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Perth, Australia

Guys, you seem to be mixing and matching words to suit your arguments.

Can we agree to some standard terms and use the consistently please.

"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

"Model" - a term defined to mean one or more profiles, together with wargear/USR and or other special rules. Note that USR can only be assigned to a model and must be explicity assigned.

Ok, so lets be clear. Orikan the Diviner also has 2 profiles on a single model. Wargear and rules applying DO NOT transfer to the other profile. He is also in the Necron Codex. Fateweaver also has two profiles, in the form of different heads - again special abilities associated with one profile cannot be gained by the other.

As noted by Nilok, a profile is not a model.

The wording of the Chariot says that it has dual PROFILES and it should be treated as a single MODEL, which is type Chariot. The rules go on to state which profiles to use in certain circumstances.

Further, the rules contemplate that the Rider may have additional abilities which the Chariot Model does not have. Examples and specific rules given in the BRB are Ever-Living and Character.

Col_impact has also raised the issue of things like Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair. These are special rules assigned by the Necron codex to the Chariot Model.

Hopefully we agree to this point, as these are statements of fact.

Your assertion is that the sentence which tells you to treat the 2 profiles as a single model INCLUDES wargear and special rules, despite the evidence that the PROFILE does not contain these things (the profile example, ever living rule, character rule).

In addition, you are stating that if the Rider's MODEL had a special rule, therefore the Chariot MODEL has that rule, even though the rule book says to combine PROFILES, which I have already shown does not include USR or wargear.

So, utilising the rules available to us....

*USR can only be assigned to a MODEL (not a PROFILE). In this case the IC USR was assigned to the Rider MODEL, together with Ever-living and a bunch of wargear, including a warscythe, semp weave.

*The chariot PROFILE cannot use any of the RIDER's wargear, nor can it use Character or Ever-living (and yes, I don't think the Chariot gets the benefit of the phase shifter in assault either).

*You maintain that the chariot CAN use Independent Character. Why? IC is not part of the Rider profile. The Chariot model has not been specifically assigned the IC USR. The Rider CANNOT transfer IC to any model and certainly can't transfer it to a Profile.

What am I missing?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
If Independent Character is so obviously not possibly attributable to a Chariot, then why bother even specifically taking it away in the case of the Chaos Demon Codex. The Chaos Demon codex has to specifically take it away because otherwise the Chaos Chariot would have it. Obviously, when you mash two profiles together into a single model you indeed have two profiles mashed together into a single model and some one has to say "hey now, Independent Character is no longer in effect here" because it being there is a byproduct of the mashing.

That's a ridiculous argument. If it was so obvious that the special rules and attributes were "mashed together" in the Chariot model, why bother having the rule about the rider issuing a challenge in the BRB?

And you are still confusing the process. There was no mashing...there is simply a single model with 2 profiles. The single model (Chariot) has an attribute known as Rider, which can itself have special attributes/special rules and wargear. It is a fallacy to assume that the special rules, attributes or wargear assigned to the Rider automatically follow to the Model. Or, if you want to assume that special rules/attributes/wargear assigned to the Rider are part of the "model", then fine, but special attributes/rules/wargear of the Rider can ONLY be exercised and affect the Rider (eg the ability to use a warscythe).



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 07:39:08


   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





MarkCron wrote:
Guys, you seem to be mixing and matching words to suit your arguments.

Can we agree to some standard terms and use the consistently please.

"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

"Model" - a term defined to mean one or more profiles, together with wargear/USR and or other special rules. Note that USR can only be assigned to a model and must be explicity assigned.

Ok, so lets be clear. Orikan the Diviner also has 2 profiles on a single model. Wargear and rules applying DO NOT transfer to the other profile. He is also in the Necron Codex. Fateweaver also has two profiles, in the form of different heads - again special abilities associated with one profile cannot be gained by the other.

As noted by Nilok, a profile is not a model.

The wording of the Chariot says that it has dual PROFILES and it should be treated as a single MODEL, which is type Chariot. The rules go on to state which profiles to use in certain circumstances.

Further, the rules contemplate that the Rider may have additional abilities which the Chariot Model does not have. Examples and specific rules given in the BRB are Ever-Living and Character.

Col_impact has also raised the issue of things like Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair. These are special rules assigned by the Necron codex to the Chariot Model.

Hopefully we agree to this point, as these are statements of fact.

Your assertion is that the sentence which tells you to treat the 2 profiles as a single model INCLUDES wargear and special rules, despite the evidence that the PROFILE does not contain these things (the profile example, ever living rule, character rule).

In addition, you are stating that if the Rider's MODEL had a special rule, therefore the Chariot MODEL has that rule, even though the rule book says to combine PROFILES, which I have already shown does not include USR or wargear.

So, utilising the rules available to us....

*USR can only be assigned to a MODEL (not a PROFILE). In this case the IC USR was assigned to the Rider MODEL, together with Ever-living and a bunch of wargear, including a warscythe, semp weave.

*The chariot PROFILE cannot use any of the RIDER's wargear, nor can it use Character or Ever-living (and yes, I don't think the Chariot gets the benefit of the phase shifter in assault either).

*You maintain that the chariot CAN use Independent Character. Why? IC is not part of the Rider profile. The Chariot model has not been specifically assigned the IC USR. The Rider CANNOT transfer IC to any model and certainly can't transfer it to a Profile.

What am I missing?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
If Independent Character is so obviously not possibly attributable to a Chariot, then why bother even specifically taking it away in the case of the Chaos Demon Codex. The Chaos Demon codex has to specifically take it away because otherwise the Chaos Chariot would have it. Obviously, when you mash two profiles together into a single model you indeed have two profiles mashed together into a single model and some one has to say "hey now, Independent Character is no longer in effect here" because it being there is a byproduct of the mashing.

That's a ridiculous argument. If it was so obvious that the special rules and attributes were "mashed together" in the Chariot model, why bother having the rule about the rider issuing a challenge in the BRB?

And you are still confusing the process. There was no mashing...there is simply a single model with 2 profiles. The single model (Chariot) has an attribute known as Rider, which can itself have special attributes/special rules and wargear. It is a fallacy to assume that the special rules, attributes or wargear assigned to the Rider automatically follow to the Model. Or, if you want to assume that special rules/attributes/wargear assigned to the Rider are part of the "model", then fine, but special attributes/rules/wargear of the Rider can ONLY be exercised and affect the Rider (eg the ability to use a warscythe).

Please do not bring in rules that do not factor into the discussion. Orikan the Diviner never has both profiles active on the model at the same time.

The problem is you keep referancing things like "Rider model". Please tell me where the rider model is. Is in a transport? No, the Chariot is not a transport. Is it in reserves? no, it can't be. There is no rider model. If the rider profile has anything that say it applies to the model, it applies to the only model, the Chariot model, the Catacomb Command Barge. If the chariot profile has anything that applies to the model, it too applies to the Catacomb Command Barge.

If is say model, it applies to the model. There is no such thing as a rider model, there is only the Catacomb Command Barge model, which has a Chariot Profile and a Rider Profile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 07:46:41


 
   
Made in nl
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A model means just that, a physical manifestation of the miniature on the board.

See page 8, first paragraph.

Nowhere does it say model is defined as specifically one or more profiles...

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




MarkCron,

You are on the losing side of an argument here. You are having to explain away why GW could not be bothered to mention that the Overlord loses IC status if it takes a CCB. GW did not mention it, as it did in the case of the Chaos Daemon codex, because GW intends for the CCB to have IC.

Oversight? Perhaps. But we have to assume competence. Chaos Demon Chariot = No on IC. Necron Chariot = Yes on IC.

Could it possibly be more clear what is RAI here?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Perth, Australia

 Nilok wrote:
MarkCron wrote:
Guys, you seem to be mixing and matching words to suit your arguments.

Can we agree to some standard terms and use the consistently please.

"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

"Model" - a term defined to mean one or more profiles, together with wargear/USR and or other special rules. Note that USR can only be assigned to a model and must be explicity assigned.

Ok, so lets be clear. Orikan the Diviner also has 2 profiles on a single model. Wargear and rules applying DO NOT transfer to the other profile. He is also in the Necron Codex. Fateweaver also has two profiles, in the form of different heads - again special abilities associated with one profile cannot be gained by the other.

As noted by Nilok, a profile is not a model.

The wording of the Chariot says that it has dual PROFILES and it should be treated as a single MODEL, which is type Chariot. The rules go on to state which profiles to use in certain circumstances.

Further, the rules contemplate that the Rider may have additional abilities which the Chariot Model does not have. Examples and specific rules given in the BRB are Ever-Living and Character.

Col_impact has also raised the issue of things like Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair. These are special rules assigned by the Necron codex to the Chariot Model.

Hopefully we agree to this point, as these are statements of fact.

Your assertion is that the sentence which tells you to treat the 2 profiles as a single model INCLUDES wargear and special rules, despite the evidence that the PROFILE does not contain these things (the profile example, ever living rule, character rule).

In addition, you are stating that if the Rider's MODEL had a special rule, therefore the Chariot MODEL has that rule, even though the rule book says to combine PROFILES, which I have already shown does not include USR or wargear.

So, utilising the rules available to us....

*USR can only be assigned to a MODEL (not a PROFILE). In this case the IC USR was assigned to the Rider MODEL, together with Ever-living and a bunch of wargear, including a warscythe, semp weave.

*The chariot PROFILE cannot use any of the RIDER's wargear, nor can it use Character or Ever-living (and yes, I don't think the Chariot gets the benefit of the phase shifter in assault either).

*You maintain that the chariot CAN use Independent Character. Why? IC is not part of the Rider profile. The Chariot model has not been specifically assigned the IC USR. The Rider CANNOT transfer IC to any model and certainly can't transfer it to a Profile.

What am I missing?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
If Independent Character is so obviously not possibly attributable to a Chariot, then why bother even specifically taking it away in the case of the Chaos Demon Codex. The Chaos Demon codex has to specifically take it away because otherwise the Chaos Chariot would have it. Obviously, when you mash two profiles together into a single model you indeed have two profiles mashed together into a single model and some one has to say "hey now, Independent Character is no longer in effect here" because it being there is a byproduct of the mashing.

That's a ridiculous argument. If it was so obvious that the special rules and attributes were "mashed together" in the Chariot model, why bother having the rule about the rider issuing a challenge in the BRB?

And you are still confusing the process. There was no mashing...there is simply a single model with 2 profiles. The single model (Chariot) has an attribute known as Rider, which can itself have special attributes/special rules and wargear. It is a fallacy to assume that the special rules, attributes or wargear assigned to the Rider automatically follow to the Model. Or, if you want to assume that special rules/attributes/wargear assigned to the Rider are part of the "model", then fine, but special attributes/rules/wargear of the Rider can ONLY be exercised and affect the Rider (eg the ability to use a warscythe).

Please do not bring in rules that do not factor into the discussion. Orikan the Diviner never has both profiles active on the model at the same time.

And neither does the Chariot. For any event you only get to use one profile, not both.

The problem is you keep referancing things like "Rider model". Please tell me where the rider model is. Is in a transport? No, the Chariot is not a transport. Is it in reserves? no, it can't be. There is no rider model. If the rider profile has anything that say it applies to the model, it applies to the only model, the Chariot model, the Catacomb Command Barge.

Fair point. From now on, I'll refer to the Rider attribute. However, please note that you have confused yourself there. The Rider profile contains the characteristics (but not the special wargear, atrributes or special rules) of the Rider, which is part of the Chariot model. The Rider profile can only be used by the Rider attribute and not the vehicle attribute and vice versa. The rider attribute cannot sweep attack with Model weapons, only with its own weapons (ie warscythe or whatever) as an example.


If is say model, it applies to the model. There is no such thing as a rider model, there is only the Catacomb Command Barge model, which has a Chariot Profile and a Rider Profile.
Plus it has an additional Rider attribute, because the Rider profile does not contain special rules, wargear etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
MarkCron,

You are on the losing side of an argument here. You are having to explain away why GW could not be bothered to mention that the Overlord loses IC status if it takes a CCB. GW did not mention it, as it did in the case of the Chaos Daemon codex, because GW intends for the CCB to have IC.

Oversight? Perhaps. But we have to assume competence. Chaos Demon Chariot = No on IC. Necron Chariot = Yes on IC.

Could it possibly be more clear what is RAI here?

Don't you hate cleaning up after other peoples work?

I don't agree that we need to assume competence, because you could equally say that the Demon FAQ was required due to lack of common sense re Demon Players. However, Crons are a Ward codex so it may indeed be possible that the intent was to give Crons a basically unkillable game breaking unit, which reanimates.

Problem is, it doesn't feel like that was what was intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 08:02:23


   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





People on the Chariot can join side can you tell me which of the following two options is true in your interpretation:

1) The Chariot and unit once joined are not a chariot unit and thus assigning hits does not come into effect and the unit becomes immortal as you just assign wounds to the chariot and it doesn't care.

2) The Chariot and unit are a Chariot unit and thus all models gave all the USRs for chariots including HoW etc. Also should an infantry man be at the front of the unit it becomes immortal as assigning hits works and you simply assign all hits to his non-existent chariot.

Which of those 2 statements is true?

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Made in gb
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Shropshire

So dont know if anyone else has but emailed gw faqs so hopefully fingers crossed we get an faq sometime in the near future... Remember everyone involved in these debates if you all.email gamefaqs@gwplc.com we may see a resolution doesnt help if we dont as a community all ask for the clarification.

This is an interesting arguement and well thought out on both sides but my gut tells me they cant join a unit it just seems weird.

Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?

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Made in de
Repentia Mistress





Santuary 101

Waiting for them to FAQ this may be the best way rather than argue about it now. Also, the suggestion to discuss this with your opponents. My group doesn't really like it so in deference to my good pals, I won't be joining any units with my CCB.

What we feel it should be is all attempting to know RAI, which, as we are not GW, will never be accurate.

So the choice now is take it RAW and do it, or discuss with your opponent. And the good suggestion to mail in.

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Made in gb
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Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?


Ghostark repair barge rule can add Warhound titans to warrior or Immortal units using the same logic as is presented here...

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

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Made in de
Repentia Mistress





Santuary 101

 FlingitNow wrote:
Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?


Ghostark repair barge rule can add Warhound titans to warrior or Immortal units using the same logic as is presented here...


You got me curious. Which rule allows this?

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Made in us
The Hive Mind





MarkCron wrote:
"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

That's a characteristics profile.
The model profile contains wargear and special rules.

In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. It might also have an additional save of some kind, representing any special armour or mystical protection it might have, it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules.

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Perth, Australia

rigeld2 wrote:
MarkCron wrote:
"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

That's a characteristics profile.
The model profile contains wargear and special rules.

In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. It might also have an additional save of some kind, representing any special armour or mystical protection it might have, it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules.

True. However, the profile referred to in the ERB example was only a characteristics profile, which is one of the main issues I have with this theory that IC transfers. Even if the example *meant* model profile, I'm yet to see anything which indicates that a USR attaching to the Rider can transfer so the Vehicle can use it. The ERB has several examples of USR/special rules attaching to the Rider, which the Chariot can't use.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





 milkboy wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?


Ghostark repair barge rule can add Warhound titans to warrior or Immortal units using the same logic as is presented here...


You got me curious. Which rule allows this?


Repair barge allows you to add d3 MODELS to a warrior/immortal unit and puts no restrictions on what those models can be. So you're free to add d3 Reaver Titans if you want.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

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Made in de
Repentia Mistress





Santuary 101

Lol interesting logic. Although very wrong, it'll be hilarious to bring out a Titan mid game.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
 milkboy wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?


Ghostark repair barge rule can add Warhound titans to warrior or Immortal units using the same logic as is presented here...


You got me curious. Which rule allows this?


Repair barge allows you to add d3 MODELS to a warrior/immortal unit and puts no restrictions on what those models can be. So you're free to add d3 Reaver Titans if you want.

I would ask if you are arguing RAW or RAI. When I asked MarkCron if his argument was RAI, we got back into the argument about What is a Man Model.

If we can start on common ground of RAW or RAI, we can make progress in this discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 16:33:03


 
   
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he is embarked on a vehicle (in a strange way) and you cant join units outside the vehicle. this isnt difficult but all the waac players who troll this board seem to make rules or understand them in a special way. the chariot gains characteristics of the overlord not his usr's
   
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broo wrote:
he is embarked on a vehicle (in a strange way) and you cant join units outside the vehicle. this isnt difficult but all the waac players who troll this board seem to make rules or understand them in a special way. the chariot gains characteristics of the overlord not his usr's

I would recommend reading through the new 7e rules on Chariots. A Chariot is no longer a Transport and can never have anything embarked in it. The Overlord model no longer exists and is instead a secondary profile for the Chariot, one in the same model.

If you are arguing RAI there is a good discussion there, however RAW arguments haven't provided a reasonable argument that the CCB's profiles don't benefit from things that target the model.
   
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 FlingitNow wrote:
 milkboy wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Can anyone else think of an example when a vehicle model can join a non vehicle model in a unit?


Ghostark repair barge rule can add Warhound titans to warrior or Immortal units using the same logic as is presented here...


You got me curious. Which rule allows this?


Repair barge allows you to add d3 MODELS to a warrior/immortal unit and puts no restrictions on what those models can be. So you're free to add d3 Reaver Titans if you want.


Hahaha brillant an interesting way of lookijg at it

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Nilok wrote:
If we can start on common ground of RAW or RAI, we can make progress in this discussion.


Nilok, my argument is clearly RAW, as I have repeatedly quoted ERB extracts verbatim.


Nilok wrote:
broo wrote:
he is embarked on a vehicle (in a strange way) and you cant join units outside the vehicle. this isnt difficult but all the waac players who troll this board seem to make rules or understand them in a special way. the chariot gains characteristics of the overlord not his usr's

I would recommend reading through the new 7e rules on Chariots. A Chariot is no longer a Transport and can never have anything embarked in it. The Overlord model no longer exists and is instead a secondary profile for the Chariot, one in the same model.

If you are arguing RAI there is a good discussion there, however RAW arguments haven't provided a reasonable argument that the CCB's profiles don't benefit from things that target the model.

Ahem, this is TOTALLY incorrect. Those arguing FOR IC are yet to provide a RAW for "mashing" up the USR.

However, in order to ensure we are clear on the RAW and my argument why the chariot is not an IC, I will set them out again.

RAW - ERB Pg 510, first para under "Chariots" = "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model." For reference the "see below" is to a diagram showing characteristic profiles, with no reference at all to either wargear or special rules.

RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "A character mounted on a chariot is referred to as a Rider."

RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, sucah as Necron's Ever-living speical rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."

RAW - ERB pg 511 under the heading "Shooting at Chariots" = "The controlling player then allocates each hit pool to either the Rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit"

RAW ERB pg 512 "Challenges" = "A Rider who is a character can issue and accept challenges as normal, but cannot perform a glorious intervention".

RAW ERB pg 513 "Special Rules" = "A Chariot has the hammer of wrath special rule ...." and also "A Rider has the Fearless and Relentless special rules. A rider can fire Overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself"



For the purposes of the Chariot section of the rulebook the following definitions therefore apply:

"Profile" - a representation of characteristics excluding wargear and special rules as shown in the example profile under the Chariot rules in the ERB.

"Model" - a term defined to mean one or more profiles, together with wargear/USR and or other special rules.

"Rider" - a mounted character which can have it's own wargear and special rules separate to the Chariot

"Chariot" - A single model having dual profiles ("non vehicle profile for the rider", "vehicle profile for the chariot itself") plus a Rider

My RAW argument:

a) The wording of the Chariot says that it has dual PROFILES and it should be treated as a single MODEL, which is type Chariot. RAW, the profiles referred to are characteristic profiles which do not include USR, other special rules, weapons and/or wargear.

b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.

c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.

RAW : Combine the characteristic profiles and treat as a single model.

There are ample RAW quoted above that indicate that the Rider and the Chariot have separate special rules, weapons and wargear. Unless specifically covered by RAW, the Chariot is unable to use special rules/USR or wargear associated with the Rider.

With that done, Nilok, please provide RAW that the IC USR is able to be wielded by the Chariot.





   
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Santuary 101

MarkCron wrote:

RAW - ERB pg 511 under the heading "Shooting at Chariots" = "The controlling player then allocates each hit pool to either the Rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit"


Is this quote exact? If it is, I'm just a little curious why they specified closest model in the unit. If the chariot was meant to be a unit of one model all the time (because it cannot join units), why the need to specify closest model of the unit?

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MarkCron wrote:

b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.

c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.

The problem is you are creating these rules. A profile is only a stat line, while wargear and USRs are on the model.
I would recommend reading the Core Rules section of the book.
Other Important Information wrote:In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type... ...it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules. ...it's enough that you know to look for these aspects of the model.

Underlined for convenience.
I ask you, please provide a rules quote or page that says the profiles on the Chariot have segregated wargear and USRs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/03 23:33:50


 
   
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 milkboy wrote:
MarkCron wrote:

RAW - ERB pg 511 under the heading "Shooting at Chariots" = "The controlling player then allocates each hit pool to either the Rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit"


Is this quote exact? If it is, I'm just a little curious why they specified closest model in the unit. If the chariot was meant to be a unit of one model all the time (because it cannot join units), why the need to specify closest model of the unit?


Because Daemons have Seeker Cavalcade which is a squadron of Chariots.

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Nilok wrote:
MarkCron wrote:

b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.

c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.

The problem is you are creating these rules. A profile is only a stat line, while wargear and USRs are on the model.
I would recommend reading the Core Rules section of the book.


Thanks Nilok, I'll do that. While I'm doing that, perhaps you'd like to read the Necron Codex, which details the wargear, weapons and rules you can purchase or equip your Chariot model with. You should particularly pay attention to where you purchase special rules, such as Ever-living and IC. And don't forget about equipping your chariot model with a warscythe, MSS and the phase shifter.

Apologies for the sarcasm, but does the above help to show how absurd your model interpretation is?

The FIRST thing you do in order to get the Necron Chariot, you take an Overlord, being a model. This model has a characteristic profile, plus you can equip the Overlord MODEL with wargear (eg warscythe, semp weave, MSS etc). Up to this point, there is no Chariot involved. You THEN give the Overlord model a Chariot.

At this point, the Overlord becomes a Rider (see the BRB rule). The Chariot now has two CHARACTERISTIC profiles, PLUS a Rider with whatever wargear/weapons that the original Overlord was equipped with, which are treated as one model.

This treatment of "one model" under your INTERPRETATION means:

a) The Rider can make Sweep attacks with the Chariot model weapon.
b) The Chariot can make sweep attacks with its own weapon (because per your argument there is only one model with completely shared USR, Special rules, Weapon and wargear).
c) The Rider doesn't take morale, fear etc attacks because vehicles don't take leadership tests
d) The Chariot can fire overwatch.


I'm happy to cease arguing as soon as you quote the rulebook reference which explicitly confirms your INTERPRETATION.


Nilok wrote:
Other Important Information wrote:In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type... ...it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules. ...it's enough that you know to look for these aspects of the model.

Underlined for convenience.
I ask you, please provide a rules quote or page that says the profiles on the Chariot have segregated wargear and USRs.


RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as Necron's Ever-living special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."

RAW ERB pg 512 "Challenges" = "A Rider who is a character can issue and accept challenges as normal, but cannot perform a glorious intervention".

RAW ERB pg 513 "Special Rules" = "A Chariot has the hammer of wrath special rule ...." and also "A Rider has the Fearless and Relentless special rules. A rider can fire Overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself"

Apparently you didn't read this in my earlier post. Frankly, I think you are so focussed on that one "However....etc" statement that you haven't actually read the rest of the Chariot rules. According to your definition, GW has stuffed up completely every time they refer to giving a Rider a special rule or the ability to do something, because per the rulebook that can only be done for models.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 01:18:47


   
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Several things I noticed,

1: If the Daemons have Chariot Squadrons why take away IC from their Heralds in the first place this seems like a mistake that might have carried over from an older FAQ? Also if IC did not or could not affect the Chariot then why take it away from the Daemons in the first place?

2: Given that a CCB can get across the board in one turn why would or when would there ever be a time that a Glorious Intervention might take place.

3: If you have a Squadron of Chariots then the Closest model will always be a chariot so why make the distinction when shooting at a Chariot that you have to allocate to the closest model?

4: Lets us presume that I could buy Wargear for my CCB, How would I use a Warscythe without a WS? or number of Attacks or Initiative as those are not part of the CCB Profile?

This entire subject needs a FAQ.

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One interesting thing to note is the rule regarding the use of everliving and the like. It states if the "rider" has the special rule, then that "model's" chariot gains 1 hull point. This would indicate that the rider profile is considered a separate model for special rule purposes (and possibly wargear?).
   
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 BLADERIKER wrote:
Several things I noticed,

1: If the Daemons have Chariot Squadrons why take away IC from their Heralds in the first place this seems like a mistake that might have carried over from an older FAQ? Also if IC did not or could not affect the Chariot then why take it away from the Daemons in the first place?

2: Given that a CCB can get across the board in one turn why would or when would there ever be a time that a Glorious Intervention might take place.

3: If you have a Squadron of Chariots then the Closest model will always be a chariot so why make the distinction when shooting at a Chariot that you have to allocate to the closest model?

4: Lets us presume that I could buy Wargear for my CCB, How would I use a Warscythe without a WS? or number of Attacks or Initiative as those are not part of the CCB Profile?

This entire subject needs a FAQ.

1. I suspect it is because of the way the codex is worded. If you can buy a chariot squadron in the codex, THEN upgrade to include IC then the Chariot with the herald will have IC. Alternatively, if the herald unit is already on a chariot, and you add a retinue on chariots, then there would be an argument that the whole lot could join another unit. In the Necron codex there is no way to do that (you have to buy the overlord first).

2. I think this is to stop the Chariot being used to tarpit enemy characters. Scenario is necron player has warlord in unit, which is assaulted. Warlord accepts challenge. Round 2, Chariot assaults and performs glorious intervention to get the overlord away.

3. Good question

4. The Chariot uses the Rider profile for all characteristic tests. If you could buy a warscythe for a chariot, it would be wielded by the rider, using the riders attacks.

edit : to correct point 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 02:15:28


   
 
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