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b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.
c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.
The problem is you are creating these rules. A profile is only a stat line, while wargear and USRs are on the model.
I would recommend reading the Core Rules section of the book.
Thanks Nilok, I'll do that. While I'm doing that, perhaps you'd like to read the Necron Codex, which details the wargear, weapons and rules you can purchase or equip your Chariot model with. You should particularly pay attention to where you purchase special rules, such as Ever-living and IC. And don't forget about equipping your chariot model with a warscythe, MSS and the phase shifter.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but does the above help to show how absurd your model interpretation is?
The FIRST thing you do in order to get the Necron Chariot, you take an Overlord, being a model. This model has a characteristic profile, plus you can equip the Overlord MODEL with wargear (eg warscythe, semp weave, MSS etc). Up to this point, there is no Chariot involved. You THEN give the Overlord model a Chariot.
At this point, the Overlord becomes a Rider (see the BRB rule). The Chariot now has two CHARACTERISTIC profiles, PLUS a Rider with whatever wargear/weapons that the original Overlord was equipped with, which are treated as one model.
This treatment of "one model" under your INTERPRETATION means:
a) The Rider can make Sweep attacks with the Chariot model weapon.
b) The Chariot can make sweep attacks with its own weapon (because per your argument there is only one model with completely shared USR, Special rules, Weapon and wargear).
c) The Rider doesn't take morale, fear etc attacks because vehicles don't take leadership tests
d) The Chariot can fire overwatch.
I'm happy to cease arguing as soon as you quote the rulebook reference which explicitly confirms your INTERPRETATION.
Nilok wrote:
Other Important Information wrote:In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type... ...it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules. ...it's enough that you know to look for these aspects of the model.
Underlined for convenience.
I ask you, please provide a rules quote or page that says the profiles on the Chariot have segregated wargear and USRs.
RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as Necron's Ever-living special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."
RAW ERB pg 512 "Challenges" = "A Rider who is a character can issue and accept challenges as normal, but cannot perform a glorious intervention".
RAW ERB pg 513 "Special Rules" = "A Chariot has the hammer of wrath special rule ...." and also "A Rider has the Fearless and Relentless special rules. A rider can fire Overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself"
Apparently you didn't read this in my earlier post. Frankly, I think you are so focussed on that one "However....etc" statement that you haven't actually read the rest of the Chariot rules. According to your definition, GW has stuffed up completely every time they refer to giving a Rider a special rule or the ability to do something, because per the rulebook that can only be done for models.
MarkCron, we are not suggesting that the Vehicle gains IC, only that the Rider does not lose IC. The Rider and Vehicle merge into one model that has IC on the Rider part of the dual profile. Because the rider has IC, the Chariot can join units as an IC. Nothing about also being at the same time a Vehicle prevents the Chariot from implementing IC.
The Daemon FAQ specifically takes away the IC status from the Daemon Chariot. Why? Because otherwise the Chariot would have it. You couldn't take it away if it didn't have it without that line.
ClassicCarraway wrote: One interesting thing to note is the rule regarding the use of everliving and the like. It states if the "rider" has the special rule, then that "model's" chariot gains 1 hull point. This would indicate that the rider profile is considered a separate model for special rule purposes (and possibly wargear?).
Precisely.
The issue here is that people are trying to abuse the "however, both profiles are treated as one model" sentence by claiming that the Rider is not a model, hence doesn't have special rules.
BLADERIKER wrote: 1: If the Daemons have Chariot Squadrons why take away IC from their Heralds in the first place this seems like a mistake that might have carried over from an older FAQ?
Nope. Looking at the v1.1 Codex Chaos Daemons FAQ (dated 24 July 2012) there is nothing to indicate that a Herald would lose his IC status just because he purchased a chariot.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.
c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.
The problem is you are creating these rules. A profile is only a stat line, while wargear and USRs are on the model.
I would recommend reading the Core Rules section of the book.
Thanks Nilok, I'll do that. While I'm doing that, perhaps you'd like to read the Necron Codex, which details the wargear, weapons and rules you can purchase or equip your Chariot model with. You should particularly pay attention to where you purchase special rules, such as Ever-living and IC. And don't forget about equipping your chariot model with a warscythe, MSS and the phase shifter.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but does the above help to show how absurd your model interpretation is?
The FIRST thing you do in order to get the Necron Chariot, you take an Overlord, being a model. This model has a characteristic profile, plus you can equip the Overlord MODEL with wargear (eg warscythe, semp weave, MSS etc). Up to this point, there is no Chariot involved. You THEN give the Overlord model a Chariot.
At this point, the Overlord becomes a Rider (see the BRB rule). The Chariot now has two CHARACTERISTIC profiles, PLUS a Rider with whatever wargear/weapons that the original Overlord was equipped with, which are treated as one model.
This treatment of "one model" under your INTERPRETATION means:
a) The Rider can make Sweep attacks with the Chariot model weapon.
b) The Chariot can make sweep attacks with its own weapon (because per your argument there is only one model with completely shared USR, Special rules, Weapon and wargear).
c) The Rider doesn't take morale, fear etc attacks because vehicles don't take leadership tests
d) The Chariot can fire overwatch.
I'm happy to cease arguing as soon as you quote the rulebook reference which explicitly confirms your INTERPRETATION.
Nilok wrote:
Other Important Information wrote:In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type... ...it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules. ...it's enough that you know to look for these aspects of the model.
Underlined for convenience.
I ask you, please provide a rules quote or page that says the profiles on the Chariot have segregated wargear and USRs.
RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as Necron's Ever-living special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."
RAW ERB pg 512 "Challenges" = "A Rider who is a character can issue and accept challenges as normal, but cannot perform a glorious intervention".
RAW ERB pg 513 "Special Rules" = "A Chariot has the hammer of wrath special rule ...." and also "A Rider has the Fearless and Relentless special rules. A rider can fire Overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself"
Apparently you didn't read this in my earlier post. Frankly, I think you are so focussed on that one "However....etc" statement that you haven't actually read the rest of the Chariot rules. According to your definition, GW has stuffed up completely every time they refer to giving a Rider a special rule or the ability to do something, because per the rulebook that can only be done for models.
MarkCron, we are not suggesting that the Vehicle gains IC, only that the Rider does not lose IC. The Rider and Vehicle merge into one model that has IC on the Rider part of the dual profile. Because the rider has IC, the Chariot can join units as an IC. Nothing about also being at the same time a Vehicle prevents the Chariot from implementing IC.
The Daemon FAQ specifically takes away the IC status from the Daemon Chariot. Why? Because otherwise the Chariot would have it. You couldn't take it away if it didn't have it without that line.
Col_Impact, I understand what you are saying. However, in order for the vehicle to be able to join a unit, both attributes (ie the Chariot attribute and the Rider attribute) have to have the USR. The principle is exactly the same as everliving or overwatch. The fact that the Rider has overwatch doesn't mean that the vehicle gets to do it.
IC essentially becomes useless because only the Rider has it and the Rider can't disembark.
Re the Demon FAQ, I have no idea, but the way the codex is worded may create a different issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 02:27:10
b) The Rider has special rules, weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the Rider (eg Fearless, Ever-living, Relentless) plus weapons and wargear that can only be wielded by the rider.
c) The Chariot profile has special rules, weapons and wargear that cannot be used or wielded by the Rider. Eg mounted weapons, Living Metal, Symbiotic Repair.
The problem is you are creating these rules. A profile is only a stat line, while wargear and USRs are on the model.
I would recommend reading the Core Rules section of the book.
Thanks Nilok, I'll do that. While I'm doing that, perhaps you'd like to read the Necron Codex, which details the wargear, weapons and rules you can purchase or equip your Chariot model with. You should particularly pay attention to where you purchase special rules, such as Ever-living and IC. And don't forget about equipping your chariot model with a warscythe, MSS and the phase shifter.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but does the above help to show how absurd your model interpretation is?
The FIRST thing you do in order to get the Necron Chariot, you take an Overlord, being a model. This model has a characteristic profile, plus you can equip the Overlord MODEL with wargear (eg warscythe, semp weave, MSS etc). Up to this point, there is no Chariot involved. You THEN give the Overlord model a Chariot.
At this point, the Overlord becomes a Rider (see the BRB rule). The Chariot now has two CHARACTERISTIC profiles, PLUS a Rider with whatever wargear/weapons that the original Overlord was equipped with, which are treated as one model.
This treatment of "one model" under your INTERPRETATION means:
a) The Rider can make Sweep attacks with the Chariot model weapon.
b) The Chariot can make sweep attacks with its own weapon (because per your argument there is only one model with completely shared USR, Special rules, Weapon and wargear).
c) The Rider doesn't take morale, fear etc attacks because vehicles don't take leadership tests
d) The Chariot can fire overwatch.
I'm happy to cease arguing as soon as you quote the rulebook reference which explicitly confirms your INTERPRETATION.
Nilok wrote:
Other Important Information wrote:In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type... ...it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or might have one or more special rules. ...it's enough that you know to look for these aspects of the model.
Underlined for convenience.
I ask you, please provide a rules quote or page that says the profiles on the Chariot have segregated wargear and USRs.
RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as Necron's Ever-living special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."
RAW ERB pg 512 "Challenges" = "A Rider who is a character can issue and accept challenges as normal, but cannot perform a glorious intervention".
RAW ERB pg 513 "Special Rules" = "A Chariot has the hammer of wrath special rule ...." and also "A Rider has the Fearless and Relentless special rules. A rider can fire Overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself"
Apparently you didn't read this in my earlier post. Frankly, I think you are so focussed on that one "However....etc" statement that you haven't actually read the rest of the Chariot rules. According to your definition, GW has stuffed up completely every time they refer to giving a Rider a special rule or the ability to do something, because per the rulebook that can only be done for models.
MarkCron, we are not suggesting that the Vehicle gains IC, only that the Rider does not lose IC. The Rider and Vehicle merge into one model that has IC on the Rider part of the dual profile. Because the rider has IC, the Chariot can join units as an IC. Nothing about also being at the same time a Vehicle prevents the Chariot from implementing IC.
The Daemon FAQ specifically takes away the IC status from the Daemon Chariot. Why? Because otherwise the Chariot would have it. You couldn't take it away if it didn't have it without that line.
Col_Impact, I understand what you are saying. However, in order for the vehicle to be able to join a unit, both attributes (ie the Chariot attribute and the Rider attribute) have to have the USR. The principle is exactly the same as everliving or overwatch. The fact that the Rider has overwatch doesn't mean that the vehicle gets to do it.
IC essentially becomes useless because only the Rider has it and the Rider can't disembark.
Re the Demon FAQ, I have no idea, but the way the codex is worded may create a different issue.
But the command barge does get everliving, it even says so in the rule book
2014/06/04 02:36:03
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
The rider doesn't have to disembark and in fact it cannot disembark because it is now a Chariot and part of a single entity. The rider and the vehicle are to be treated a single model per the rules. The rider simply implements the IC rule and the Chariot model joins the unit. There is nothing taking it away or preventing it. No line in the FAQ. And a very clear precedent exists in the Chaos Daemon codex, that a line needs to exist that takes away IC status. With that precedent we clearly see GW's RAI.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 02:39:02
CrownAxe wrote:But the command barge does get everliving, it even says so in the rule book
No, it doesn't. RAW - ERB pg 510 under heading "Characters Riding Chariots" = "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as Necron's Ever-living special rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point."
The Chariot is *affected* by Ever-Living, it doesn't have it.
col_impact wrote:The rider doesn't have to disembark and in fact it cannot disembark because it is now a Chariot and part of a single entity.
Agreed, entity comprises a Rider attribute (being a Rider profile plus whatever special rules the Rider has) plus a Chariot attribute (being the Chariot profile plus whatever rules the Chariot has)
col_impact wrote:The rider and the vehicle are to be treated a single model per the rules.
No, the two characteristic profiles are treated as a single model.
Where this is confusing is that the Rider and Chariot attributes are treated differently and have different rules. The fundamental difference in our positions is that you are saying that the different attributes can't be separated because they are a single model. That's clearly not the case, because RAW in assault you can direct attacks to either the Rider or the Chariot attributes, the hit pools are assigned to the different attributes and special rules applicable to one attribute don't apply to another (eg the armourbane associated with a Rider warscythe does not grant armourbane to the Chariot attribute weapon, plus the previously quoted everliving/overwatch examples).
col_impact wrote:The rider simply implements the IC rule and the Chariot model joins the unit. There is nothing taking it away or preventing it.
The Rider is prevented from joining a unit that contains a vehicle per the USR. The Chariot model is type Chariot so any unit with a Chariot in it is ineligible. Granted, the way the USR is worded doesn't make a lot of sense, because you are essentially bringing the vehicle with you. The USR as worded is clear, you cannot have an IC in a unit which contains a vehicle.
col_impact wrote:No line in the FAQ. And a very clear precedent exists in the Chaos Daemon codex, that a line needs to exist that takes away IC status. With that precedent we clearly see GW's RAI.
I'm not talking about RAI. I'm talking RAW. If there is nothing in the Necron Codex/FAQ/BRB that specifically gives the chariot Model the right to join the unit, then it can't be done.
( As an aside, I would have thought that the ICUSR more clearly stated GWRAI that you can't have a unit containing vehicles and non vehicle models).
I think I may have found the way to put this to rest.
As per the current Necron FAQ: "Page 89 - Necron Overlord Add the following to the list of Options: "May take a Catacomb Command Barge (The Necron Overlord becomes the chariots rider, see page 91)."
Page 89 of the current Necron Codex is the points cost page and Options (5th ed codex) are for wargear.
This mean that the CCB is a Wargear upgrade to the Necron Overlord and not anything else, just like a Bike is an upgrade to a Space Marine Captain. So does taking a bike as a part of a IC's wargear invalidate the IC's USR or add to them? They add to them, there is nothing preventing a SM captain on a Bike from joining a Tactical Squad, just draw backs in movement. Also all the war gear that is taken as part of the IC's load out can benefit when able the Bike.
The Issue here is how to deal with a IC that has both a Armour save and an Armour value (Which is covered in the chariot rules for shooting at a Chariot)
Additionally, the Bike gives the Rider the relentless USR while the bike gets the HoWUSR.
The Chariot is part of the Overlord Model and not the other way around. The CCB is no longer a Dedicated Transport and can no longer be purchased by any of the named Necron HQ's that could purchase it before. It is literally an upgrade to the Overlord model, just like a Jump pack or Bike is a upgrade to a Sm Captain model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 03:21:02
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2014/06/04 03:18:22
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
BLADERIKER wrote: I think I may have found the way to put this to rest.
As per the current Necron FAQ: "Page 89 - Necron Overlord Add the following to the list of Options: "May take a Catacomb Command Barge (The Necron Overlord becomes the chariots rider, see page 91)."
Page 89 of the current Necron Codex is the points cost page and Options (5th ed codex) are for wargear.
This mean that the CCB is a Wargear upgrade to the Necron Overlord and not anything else, just like a Bike is an upgrade to a Space Marine Captain. So does taking a bike as a part of a IC's wargear invalidate the IC's USR or add to them? They add to them, there is nothing preventing a SM captain on a Bike from joining a Tactical Squad, just draw backs in movement. Also all the war gear that is taken as part of the IC's load out can benefit when able the Bike.
The Issue here is how to deal with a IC that has both a Armour save and an Armour value (Which is covered in the chariot rules for shooting at a Chariot)
The Chariot is part of the Overlord Model and not the other way around.
Good thought, except that the ICUSR specifically says that the IC cannot join units that contain vehicles or monstrous creatures. Bikes are neither, which is why you can attach a bike captain to an SM squad (if you want to).
BLADERIKER wrote: I think I may have found the way to put this to rest.
As per the current Necron FAQ: "Page 89 - Necron Overlord Add the following to the list of Options: "May take a Catacomb Command Barge (The Necron Overlord becomes the chariots rider, see page 91)."
Page 89 of the current Necron Codex is the points cost page and Options (5th ed codex) are for wargear.
This mean that the CCB is a Wargear upgrade to the Necron Overlord and not anything else, just like a Bike is an upgrade to a Space Marine Captain. So does taking a bike as a part of a IC's wargear invalidate the IC's USR or add to them? They add to them, there is nothing preventing a SM captain on a Bike from joining a Tactical Squad, just draw backs in movement. Also all the war gear that is taken as part of the IC's load out can benefit when able the Bike.
The Issue here is how to deal with a IC that has both a Armour save and an Armour value (Which is covered in the chariot rules for shooting at a Chariot)
The Chariot is part of the Overlord Model and not the other way around.
Good thought, except that the ICUSR specifically says that the IC cannot join units that contain vehicles or monstrous creatures. Bikes are neither, which is why you can attach a bike captain to an SM squad (if you want to).
okay so what units in the Necron Codex are Vehicles and or Monsters?
That leaves: Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs, Destroyers, Tomb Blades as legal Choices for a IC to join. Do any of these units contain a Vehicle or a Monstrous Creature?
Where in the rules does it state that a Vehicle cannot join a non-vehicle unit? Or that an IC with a Vehicle as part of his Wargear cannot join a non-vehicle Unit? If you could please give page and paragraph as I would enjoy being enlightened.
Edit: (Forgot three units)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 03:39:57
There's no rule that says that a vehicle can join a unit, which is the problem. In this ruleset you have to have permission to do (or not do) something.
The IC rule contains the IC can't join vehicle/MC. I can't give a page ref because I have the electronic version and it is in the "Glossary".
But, not sure where you are going, because the Chariot is not part of the wargear....the Overlord specifically becomes the Rider of the chariot.
MarkCron wrote: There's no rule that says that a vehicle can join a unit, which is the problem. In this ruleset you have to have permission to do (or not do) something.
The IC rule contains the IC can't join vehicle/MC. I can't give a page ref because I have the electronic version and it is in the "Glossary".
But, not sure where you are going, because the Chariot is not part of the wargear....the Overlord specifically becomes the Rider of the chariot.
How in the IC rules on page 166 of the BrB does an IC join a unit? And I quote "In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the (2") unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement Phase."
I take it that you are trying to argue that because the IC is riding a Chariot it is due to this condition that the IC has forfit it's IC status as it is joined to a Vehicle? The Overlord has not joined a Vehicle unit, but has a Vehicle as part of its model.
As the CCB is (As per the new FAQ) purchased under options just like all other pieces of Wargear. Note: That as the CCB is no longer a Dedicated Transport and cannot be taken by itself, or any of the named HQ's ever. Thus it has become (for the time being) a Vehicle Wargear choice for all intensive purposes. If it is not Wargear then what is it? it is not a Dedicated Transport, nor is it a Stand alone Vehicle, so what is it?
The IC in this case an Overlord is riding atop a CCB (Purchased in wargear Options) and is thus both a Chariot and an IC. Thus all the Overlord must do to join a friendly unit is move within 2" of it at the end of the movement phase. There is nothing that prevents this at all so long as the Unit being joined does not contain a Vehicle or is not a Monstrous Creature.
Oh, lord. Did you read any of the rest of the thread?
The Overlord becomes the vehicle's Rider. No question about that, and you end up with a Chariot.
Question...Why does the Chariot inherit the IC rule from it's Rider when it does not inherit everliving and does not inherit overwatch. Please quote the BRB reference that enables this.
At this point MarkCron, you are just filibustering.
The CCB is an upgrade option to the Necron Overlord. There needs to be a line in a FAQ that takes away IC from the Overlord when he chooses that upgrade. Otherwise the Overlord retains it and the Chariot model that he upgrades into is an IC.
"I have a Necron Overlord in play with the CCB upgrade option"
There is nothing preventing a Vehicle (or a Monstrous Creature for that matter) from being an IC. ICs are simply restricted from joining Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. Okay so the Necron Overlord with the CCB upgrade can not join the unit of spyders like every other IC.
Please show me a line in the FAQ that takes away IC from the Necron Overlord if he chooses the CCB option.
By the way, you can find a line like the one you are looking for in the Chaos Daemon Codex. GW wanted the Heralds to lose IC if they upgraded into Chariots. They clearly do not intend for the Necron Overlord to lose IC if it chooses to upgrade.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 04:36:23
col_impact, I can assure you I am not filibustering. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide a rule indicating that the Chariot can use the IC rule. The rules clearly show that that the Rider can have rules etc that the Chariot can't use and vice versa.
How about this. The IC rule is associated with the Rider, correct? The Chariot attribute doesn't have an IC rule. So, if you join the Chariot model to a unit, you can ONLY use the Rider profile. So, no shenanigans with allocating shooting hits etc, no HoW. You do get to keep Fearless and Relentless though.
I'm good with that.
As to your comments about the CD codex and FAQ - well they are really not relevant here are they?
If you want to get into a RAI argument, fine, but don't claim you have RAW backing.
And in fact, given that there are NO RULES which deal with shooting at mixed units, plus the IC rule which is CLEARLY designed to prevent shenanigans like the one being proposed here, PLUS the fact that they have removed it from Demon chariots, I personally think your RAI argument is really thin as well.
I'm not interested in RAI. RAW, you can't join the Chariot model to a unit.
MarkCron wrote: Oh, lord. Did you read any of the rest of the thread?
The Overlord becomes the vehicle's Rider. No question about that, and you end up with a Chariot.
Question...Why does the Chariot inherit the IC rule from it's Rider when it does not inherit everliving and does not inherit overwatch. Please quote the BRB reference that enables this.
Page 86 of the BrB clearly states that Everliving does affect the Chariot, and it can be deduced that IC does affect the Chariot due to the fact that they had to remove it from the Heralds in the Daemons codex. Just so you know The Rider cannot Overwatch as the Open Top rule no longer allows that. So it seems your points is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkCron wrote: col_impact, I can assure you I am not filibustering. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide a rule indicating that the Chariot can use the IC rule. The rules clearly show that that the Rider can have rules etc that the Chariot can't use and vice versa.
How about this. The IC rule is associated with the Rider, correct? The Chariot attribute doesn't have an IC rule. So, if you join the Chariot model to a unit, you can ONLY use the Rider profile. So, no shenanigans with allocating shooting hits etc, no HoW. You do get to keep Fearless and Relentless though.
I'm good with that.
As to your comments about the CD codex and FAQ - well they are really not relevant here are they?
If you want to get into a RAI argument, fine, but don't claim you have RAW backing.
And in fact, given that there are NO RULES which deal with shooting at mixed units, plus the IC rule which is CLEARLY designed to prevent shenanigans like the one being proposed here, PLUS the fact that they have removed it from Demon chariots, I personally think your RAI argument is really thin as well.
I'm not interested in RAI. RAW, you can't join the Chariot model to a unit.
And by not playing it RAW you are no longer playing WH40K. You can house rule it all you like, but until GW changes the FAQ, it stands.
And yes you are filibustering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 04:54:04
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2014/06/04 05:02:45
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
Hi Markcron, in your opinion, what is the purpose of removing IC status from Chaos Heralds, if, as you pointed out, having the IC rule on the riders profile doesn't do anything for him?
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BLADERIKER wrote:
Page 86 of the BrB clearly states that Everliving does affect the Chariot,
Correct, but the Chariot doesn't HAVE everliving. That rule belongs to the Rider.
BLADERIKER wrote:and it can be deduced that IC does affect the Chariot due to the fact that they had to remove it from the Heralds in the Daemons codex.
Absolutely not. what you are saying is RAI, not RAW. The Demons codex is not relevant to a RAW discussion about Necron CCBs.
BLADERIKER wrote:Just so you know The Rider cannot Overwatch as the Open Top rule no longer allows that. So it seems your points is moot.
Also incorrect. Embarked units can fire overwatch ERB, page 502 "Transports and Assaults". Also see ERB 514 "Passengers Shooting from Open Topped Transports.
BLADERIKER wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkCron wrote: col_impact, I can assure you I am not filibustering. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide a rule indicating that the Chariot can use the IC rule. The rules clearly show that that the Rider can have rules etc that the Chariot can't use and vice versa.
How about this. The IC rule is associated with the Rider, correct? The Chariot attribute doesn't have an IC rule. So, if you join the Chariot model to a unit, you can ONLY use the Rider profile. So, no shenanigans with allocating shooting hits etc, no HoW. You do get to keep Fearless and Relentless though.
I'm good with that.
As to your comments about the CD codex and FAQ - well they are really not relevant here are they?
If you want to get into a RAI argument, fine, but don't claim you have RAW backing.
And in fact, given that there are NO RULES which deal with shooting at mixed units, plus the IC rule which is CLEARLY designed to prevent shenanigans like the one being proposed here, PLUS the fact that they have removed it from Demon chariots, I personally think your RAI argument is really thin as well.
I'm not interested in RAI. RAW, you can't join the Chariot model to a unit.
And by not playing it RAW you are no longer playing WH40K. You can house rule it all you like, but until GW changes the FAQ, it stands.
And yes you are filibustering.
Ahem, I'm playing RAW. As you said, YOU can house rule, but until there is a rule or FAQ which states that you CAN join the Chariot to another unit. It stands.
col_impact wrote:You can only get a CCB as an upgrade option to a Necron Overlord.
There needs to be a line that takes away IC from the Overlord if he chooses that option.
Otherwise there is no mechanic that takes away the IC.
The Overlord is not embarking on a dedicated transport by becoming a CCB. He is not joining a vehicle by upgrading into a CCB.
Whatever he upgrades into retains IC unless some line in some FAQ removes it or some mechanic specifically takes it off.
Please show me some line or some mechanic that specifically takes away IC from the Necron Overlord when he chooses the CCB upgrade option.
col_impact. I don't think we are on the same page here. I agree that the Rider has the IC special rule. I've said that before. The thing is that the Chariot MODEL can't use it. It is exactly the same principle as saying the Rider has fearless, or overwatch. That's great, but NEITHER of those rules allow the chariot MODEL to be fearless (because it doesn't have a leadership) nor does it allow the chariot MODEL to shoot overwatch.
Can you please explain why the Chariot MODEL is not allowed to shoot overwatch, but is allowed to be an IC?
milkboy wrote:Hi Markcron, in your opinion, what is the purpose of removing IC status from Chaos Heralds, if, as you pointed out, having the IC rule on the riders profile doesn't do anything for him?
The key point here is how the IC rule is obtained by the combined model. In the case of the Necron codex, the IC rule is obtained BEFORE the Overlord converts to a Rider and because of the IC wording, that ability can only be used by the Rider. If a USR is obtained AFTER (for example put a guy on a chariot THEN upgrade to Herald) then I'm fine with that - the combined model received the power AFTER and it applies to both the Chariot and Rider profiles.
The main problem was probably that per the IC rule, the Herald was not allowed to join the squadron (because it was composed of vehicles) so removing it would be a necessity because otherwise the Herald would have had to leave the unit.
In any event, neither of those situations applies here.
The chaos heralds obtain their IC rules before obtaining a chariot as well. It is just that they were removed with their FAQ.
I think only the Slanesh chariot can start within the cavalcade. The blood throne and burning chariot have no such option. Therefore, my thinking is that the only reason for removal of IC from the khorne and tzeench era odd is to prevent them from joining units, since that is an ability conferred by the IC rule over character.
Since they felt IC rule removal necessary, they may have been doing so to remove joining units ability from te heralds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And by extension, if they did not remove IC from the necron overlord, they are allow joining of units.
So if keeping IC doesn't allow the necron overlord to join units, there should be no problem keeping it on the heralds or khorne and tzeench?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 06:40:44
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milkboy wrote: The chaos heralds obtain their IC rules before obtaining a chariot as well. It is just that they were removed with their FAQ.
I think only the Slanesh chariot can start within the cavalcade. The blood throne and burning chariot have no such option. Therefore, my thinking is that the only reason for removal of IC from the khorne and tzeench era odd is to prevent them from joining units, since that is an ability conferred by the IC rule over character.
Since they felt IC rule removal necessary, they may have been doing so to remove joining units ability from te heralds.
Or, it was simply to address that the Herald Rider on a chariot wasn't allowed to join the unit. His chariot was fine, but the Rider wasn't. Based on this thread, I can easily see someone using this to argue that you had to pull the herald chariot out of the squadron.
milkboy wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: And by extension, if they did not remove IC from the necron overlord, they are allow joining of units.
So if keeping IC doesn't allow the necron overlord to join units, there should be no problem keeping it on the heralds or khorne and tzeench?
Nope. Potentially incorrect on both points. The fact that the Necron FAQ doesn't have the same wording doesn't mean that GW wanted to allow joining of units. The fundamental difference between the two codexes is that CD apparently has squadrons of vehicles (and apparently you can have a herald in them) whereas the Cron codex doesn't have any squadrons. So, if the problem was that the IC rule on the RIDER was preventing the RIDER from being in a squadron, then removing it makes perfect sense.
But according to your interpretation that IC rule doesn't not pass to the chariot, it shouldn't matter that the Slanesh herald has IC, because you cannot join units, whether they are infantry or vehicle.
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True. But it would be a problem if any of the heralds were supposed to be able to join the squadron. Suddenly, the rider wouldn't be allowed to, which would not only invalidate the purpose of the squadron, but also cause a gigantic debate on the interweb, much like this one
I notice everyone on the pro joining side has avoided this question because they know what they are arguing is false. Please answer this question or concede. Can you tell me which of the following two options is true in your interpretation:
1) The Chariot and unit once joined are not a chariot unit and thus assigning hits does not come into effect and the unit becomes immortal as you just assign wounds to the chariot and it doesn't care.
2) The Chariot and unit are a Chariot unit and thus all models gave all the USRs for chariots including HoW etc. Also should an infantry man be at the front of the unit it becomes immortal as assigning hits works and you simply assign all hits to his non-existent chariot.
FlingitNow wrote: I notice everyone on the pro joining side has avoided this question because they know what they are arguing is false. Please answer this question or concede. Can you tell me which of the following two options is true in your interpretation:
1) The Chariot and unit once joined are not a chariot unit and thus assigning hits does not come into effect and the unit becomes immortal as you just assign wounds to the chariot and it doesn't care.
2) The Chariot and unit are a Chariot unit and thus all models gave all the USRs for chariots including HoW etc. Also should an infantry man be at the front of the unit it becomes immortal as assigning hits works and you simply assign all hits to his non-existent chariot.
Which of those 2 statements is true?
I am having trouble making sense of what you are saying here. Can you be clearer?
Shandara wrote: Vehicles can join units, provided they have the IC rule, since the IC rule doesn't care what kind of unit the IC is.
Sorry, must have missed the page in my rulebook then. Can you give me the pg and a citation?
The IC rule places no restrictions on what unit the IC is, just on what the IC can join. Page 166
If you claim there is a restriction cite it, page and para. We cannot cite the lack of a restriction, and general permission for any IC to join has been given.
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