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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 02:04:29
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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Kirasu wrote:...snip...... then they'll die to anything AP2.. If the LR is immoblized or destroyed you're looking at a useless unit....snip
So they suck because they die to guns with the best AP in the game or if their transport with the best armour in the game dies? I find this kind of logic a mixture of hilarious and disturbing.
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3500pts 1500pts 2500pts 4500pts 3500pts 2000pts 2000pts plus several small AOS armies |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 02:50:11
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Minneapolis, MN
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Zognob Gorgoff wrote: Kirasu wrote:...snip...... then they'll die to anything AP2.. If the LR is immoblized or destroyed you're looking at a useless unit....snip
So they suck because they die to guns with the best AP in the game or if their transport with the best armour in the game dies? I find this kind of logic a mixture of hilarious and disturbing.
You're paying for that 2+ armor, and AP2 is fairly common nowadays.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 02:53:20
Subject: Re:Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Ayup. 2+ armor with T4 is easily dealt with. I would rather invest a little more and get hammernators which have a sweet invuln save.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 11:16:20
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot
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Yeah, there's AP2, but if you put HG in front of weapons like this, then you've herped some derp.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 21:14:41
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Ive had fun running a fluffy deathstar of calgar, honour guard and tiggy. Tiggy tries to roll for forewarning if desperately needed. If not he rolls for biomancy powers to give squad relentless or fnp. In a land raider redeemer/crusader. Its expensived yes but fun and usually does okay so long as the land raider isnt crippled first turn. If it is on 2nd turn then they are usually close enough to move 6" towards enemy then charge with re roll to charge distance for assault doctrine of UM chapter tactics
If its crusader I usually go 12" first turn and pop smoke or snapshoot the bolters if in range of anything. If there is los blocking terrain I would flat out behind it. For redeemer similar role but more focus on getting to the lines to use the flamestorm cannons. It is risky but you only have 8inch range. Might aswell try use them
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/01 21:19:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 01:32:54
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator
Chicago, IL, USA
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But you're not paying all that much. The differential is only 11 ppm over tactical marines, which buys you both artificer armor and a power weapon, and you get to keep both your boltgun and pistol for better firepower and extra attacks in close combat. And why are you leaving these guys standing in the middle of the field without cover, anyway?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 09:19:19
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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Creeperman wrote:But you're not paying all that much. The differential is only 11 ppm over tactical marines, which buys you both artificer armor and a power weapon, and you get to keep both your boltgun and pistol for better firepower and extra attacks in close combat. And why are you leaving these guys standing in the middle of the field without cover, anyway?
My thoughts exactly. It appears that the people on this thread that disagree w taking honour guard are assuming the player is totally brain dead...
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My P&M blog
DC:90S++G+++M+B+IPw40k04#+D+A+++/cWD241R++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 12:43:00
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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Brother Payne wrote:Creeperman wrote:But you're not paying all that much. The differential is only 11 ppm over tactical marines, which buys you both artificer armor and a power weapon, and you get to keep both your boltgun and pistol for better firepower and extra attacks in close combat. And why are you leaving these guys standing in the middle of the field without cover, anyway?
My thoughts exactly. It appears that the people on this thread that disagree w taking honour guard are assuming the player is totally brain dead...
A lot of advice and tactics threads assume the worst case scenario. While it’s nice to know what’s out there that can screw you, there is also a decent chance that you will never see it at your local table. But being educated to the weakness of your plans can help you compensate.
I mentally append “Take this with a grain of salt, these are my experiences in my own local meta, and might not apply to yours, YMMV” to most advice I read here. And while there is some truth in “general internet wisdom” viewing it as the absolute only truth is a mistake. There are a lot of assumptions that go into generic advice and wisdom, some of which might not apply.
With relevance to this thread, by FLGS doesn’t have a strong tau or eldar presence. While very popular and competitive, they never took root here. General advice needs to take them into consideration, as eventually you will face them. But at my local, you don’t need to worry about them much, which skews what’s a viable build. YMMV.
And the reason I don’t take Honour Guard is that I’m not done painting mine yet. About halfway done, although I might put together another one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 14:29:24
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Flashy Flashgitz
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I'd take Honor Guard with Pedro in a heavy/all Drop Pod list. Mixed power weapons and the +1 attack bubble from Pedro is pretty awesome. If they shoot my Honor Guard they're leaving my Tacs and Sternguard alone. If not, they're wrecking face next turn.
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I'll show ye..... - Phillip J. Fry
Those are brave men knocking on our door! Let's go kill them! - Tyrion Lannister |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 14:54:19
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
High in the Rocky Mts.
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Have to run a Libby with them, hope for some sort if Invul save power maybe? Have listened to the praise of the HG recently, but haven't been able to justify squeezing them in past my Assault Terminators for CC and/or the shots from my Sternguard for that matter? Maybe some day I'll just do it and be won over, but when it comes down to it getting into combat isn't exactly what you want to do with your damn Marines anyways! Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides... ever since my (WS)Assault Terminators outflanked inside their Land Raider, tank shocking a squad of Broadsides off the table in process, disembarked and survived 2 turns of the massive shots, overwatch/supporting fire from the assembled surrounding entire Tau army, and charged and beat a Riptide into pulp only to then smash into Crisis Suit command squad causing them to break and run... I can't put them down! Without the dedicated Raider and Storm Shields (ALL HAIL!!!), I doubt HG could've done that?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 15:08:44
]=[DAGGER> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 22:24:32
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Dakka Veteran
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Nevelon wrote: Brother Payne wrote:Creeperman wrote:But you're not paying all that much. The differential is only 11 ppm over tactical marines, which buys you both artificer armor and a power weapon, and you get to keep both your boltgun and pistol for better firepower and extra attacks in close combat. And why are you leaving these guys standing in the middle of the field without cover, anyway?
My thoughts exactly. It appears that the people on this thread that disagree w taking honour guard are assuming the player is totally brain dead...
A lot of advice and tactics threads assume the worst case scenario. While it’s nice to know what’s out there that can screw you, there is also a decent chance that you will never see it at your local table. But being educated to the weakness of your plans can help you compensate.
I mentally append “Take this with a grain of salt, these are my experiences in my own local meta, and might not apply to yours, YMMV” to most advice I read here. And while there is some truth in “general internet wisdom” viewing it as the absolute only truth is a mistake. There are a lot of assumptions that go into generic advice and wisdom, some of which might not apply.
I think this is a good attitude to take. I also think that all the posters pointing out all the worst-case-scenarios have the right attitude too, though. If somebody asks about a unit or tactic in a tactics forum, they are implicitly asking for it to be shot up; to see just how many ways in which it can fail. If the OP reads the reasons why Honour Guard are rarely taken and decides that he can mitigate that through wise usage, or that the issues HG face are unlikely to be present against him, then the thread will have done it's job.
Somebody asks "What about this?" and people say "It's crap against x, y, and z," then the information is there and can be discussed. Very good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 23:29:55
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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tomjoad wrote: Nevelon wrote: Brother Payne wrote:Creeperman wrote:But you're not paying all that much. The differential is only 11 ppm over tactical marines, which buys you both artificer armor and a power weapon, and you get to keep both your boltgun and pistol for better firepower and extra attacks in close combat. And why are you leaving these guys standing in the middle of the field without cover, anyway?
My thoughts exactly. It appears that the people on this thread that disagree w taking honour guard are assuming the player is totally brain dead...
A lot of advice and tactics threads assume the worst case scenario. While it’s nice to know what’s out there that can screw you, there is also a decent chance that you will never see it at your local table. But being educated to the weakness of your plans can help you compensate.
I mentally append “Take this with a grain of salt, these are my experiences in my own local meta, and might not apply to yours, YMMV” to most advice I read here. And while there is some truth in “general internet wisdom” viewing it as the absolute only truth is a mistake. There are a lot of assumptions that go into generic advice and wisdom, some of which might not apply.
I think this is a good attitude to take. I also think that all the posters pointing out all the worst-case-scenarios have the right attitude too, though. If somebody asks about a unit or tactic in a tactics forum, they are implicitly asking for it to be shot up; to see just how many ways in which it can fail. If the OP reads the reasons why Honour Guard are rarely taken and decides that he can mitigate that through wise usage, or that the issues HG face are unlikely to be present against him, then the thread will have done it's job.
Somebody asks "What about this?" and people say "It's crap against x, y, and z," then the information is there and can be discussed. Very good.
Absolutely fair enough to the both of you. More people (me included) need to keep this in mind
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My P&M blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 23:54:13
Subject: Re:Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Sevrin Loth...? The Red Scorpion librarian has access to Honor Guard
I want to run a drop pod list built around him and use invisibility on the Honor Guard. I wonder how well this can work and how best to build the squad... Automatically Appended Next Post: mr.psyker@icloud.com wrote:Sevrin Loth...? The Red Scorpion librarian has access to Honor Guard
I want to run a drop pod list built around him and use invisibility on the Honor Guard. I wonder how well this can work and how best to build the squad...
Now after reading some forums about fortifications I am just going to take a escape hatch with my fortress of redemption... These forums are amazing DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/03 00:38:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 01:44:13
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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What can HG do that termies can't do?
Pod in on turn 1 with tiggy or sevrin loth and go invisible for a turn 2 charge.
They have the most cc of any unit that can fit into a pod.
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 03:45:24
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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schadenfreude wrote:What can HG do that termies can't do?
Pod in on turn 1 with tiggy or sevrin loth and go invisible for a turn 2 charge.
They have the most cc of any unit that can fit into a pod.
Pump out 5 power weapon attacks each on the charge? 6 if you take Kantor. And unless we're talking axes, they strike at initiative too. Plus they still have bolters. It's more wounds (and attacks) for points. All you're loosing out on is an invun
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 06:00:58
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Brother Payne wrote: schadenfreude wrote:What can HG do that termies can't do?
Pod in on turn 1 with tiggy or sevrin loth and go invisible for a turn 2 charge.
They have the most cc of any unit that can fit into a pod.
Pump out 5 power weapon attacks each on the charge? 6 if you take Kantor. And unless we're talking axes, they strike at initiative too. Plus they still have bolters. It's more wounds (and attacks) for points. All you're loosing out on is an invun
Lots of units can pump out a bunch of power weapon attacks. HG do it at a low price and are not bulky so they maximize the number of power weapon attacks that can fit into a drop pod's limited transport space.
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 13:04:55
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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Namely, they don't reach str 8 ap 2 and rock 3++.
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They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 14:57:23
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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But with an attatched inquisitor giving -1 toughness with rad grenades and pedro giving out +1 attack an 8 man honor guard squad with mixed PW's will kill anything.
lets say 3 axe's and 5 mauls. This unit is chucking out 25 str7 AP4 + 5 str 4 AP3 Force weapon attacks at init. 4. Then 15 Str6 ap2 and 6Str9 ap2 attacks at init. 1.
This is after popping off its 7 bolt pistols, 1 needle pistol, and pedro's gun.
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JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 15:05:45
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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Is this including hammerhand? I'm unclear on whether or not non grey knight inquisitors can pop it off without perils.
Also once you add in Pedro and a tooled inquisitor, plus banner, the HG are suddenly not at all cheaper than terminators, who require no added characters, grenades, or psychic powers to do what they do. Or even to be fielded.
Not saying HG are bad. But like I said several times in the thread, they're different units with different purposes. Don't try and make one do what the other does and life gets a lot easier.
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They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/03 19:34:25
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Hauptmann
Hogtown
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Hashbeth wrote:honor guard is 25 points for an Ap3 weapon, 2 attacks, and art armor. That's 3 (counting two hand weapons) s4, ap3 attacks and a 2+ armor save. For 25 pts.
Assault termies (with TH/ SS) are 45 points straight. That's 2 s8, ap2, unwieldy, concussive attacks and a 2+/3++ save. For 45 points.
S8 means the termies can instant death most things, and Ap2 means you ignore most armor. Concussive means that everything hits at i1 next turn (if they survive). AP2 weapons won't cause an auto-wound. Even tac termies have power fists and a 5+ invuln.
To get a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer on the Honor guard, that's an additional 30 points. Even relic blades + SS = 25 additional points. So at the least, to mimic assault termies would cost 50-55 points per model instead of 45. And you don't get the dedicated transport (so you have to use up a Heavy Support Slot).
That's the main issue with the honor guard. Before, when power swords ignored armor, they would've been much stronger. Now that they don't, Honor guard are weak against 2+ armor, can't threaten heavy vehicles, can't instant death really, and get annihilated by any AP2 weapons. Grav, plasma, LCs, melta, and more simply destroy them.
That's the main problem with honor guard. By the time they function as a really useful Melee threat, you're paying more than Assault termies, anyway, and you're taking up a heavy support slot with a land raider.
Correct me if I'm wrong but since the orbital is an ordnance, heavy shot the cm can't fire it the turn he disembarks as it counts as having moved. I usually try to get endurance on my libby and cast it to allow him to fire it out of a pod.
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Thought for the day |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/04 14:13:29
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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HG can fit in a pod with tiggy. If they land into cover shrouding + cover is a hard nut to crack.
There is a lot of ap2 in the meta.
There is a lot of ignore cover in the meta.
There is not a lot of ap2 ignore cover in the meta.
They are a better target for invisibility than th/ss termies. 8 honor guard with s5 power axes put out 32 attacks on the charge compared to 15 s8 hammer attacks from 5 termies. The termies have them beat on durability, but that doesn't matter if the units are invisible.
HG can work in a pod with tiggy or loth because shrouding and invisibility can make them pretty nuts
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/06 12:03:00
Subject: Re:Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Boosting Black Templar Biker
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I played yesterday game with honor guard,, and they were led by Helbrecht and CM with TH/Shield eternal, and i also brought 7 hammernators(we were playing apocalypse 2v2 with 2.5k points per player) and boy they wrecked just about anything they got into contact with(Incubi with CM tanking the hits, 3 units of 10 wyches, and when Zhufor and his terminator retinue dropped by, i attached the priest to hammernators, so i got rerollable 2+/3++ in CC, which resulted in Zhufor getting a beating from Terminator sargeant  ) the honor guard unit killed atleast double it's value and paired with hammernators they killed IIRC little less than 1800 points... In smaller games, TAKE THE LAND RAIDER, YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO GET SNIPED BY LASCANNONS!! And while Hammernators can take TRUCKLOAD of beating, honor guard gives 2 truckloads, 10 man honor guard with 9 power axes and power sword on the champion with chapter banner has 45 S5 AP2 attacks, but when paired with Tyberos, they get rage and +1S after they kill something, meaning the same unit dishes out 54(!!) S6AP2 attacks with preffered enemy(infantry) And it costs 285 points total, while 6 hammernators cost 270 points. This picture pretty much sums it up, just replace 2+ armor save with 3+ invulnerable save
TL;DR If you take a CM that can take a beating(for example shield eternal) but don't have points left for assault terminators, take honor guard, and give them power axes, take LR(C or R prefferably) LoS any hit that isn't AP2 and whack their faces in
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AFTER A THOUSAND EXAMS ONE ONLY SEES FAILURE!
2000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/06 14:24:57
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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What are the intended targets for these tooled up HG?
Just wondering since, yes they kill anything, if they get there. But then they need to walk to the next target?
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Fighting crime in a future time! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 05:11:27
Subject: Re:Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Implacable Black Templar Initiate
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From what I have seen, it isn't Terminators that get taken over Honor Guard. It is Command Squad. They can get pricey, but you can grab 3++ shields, power weapons, and, most importantly, an Apothecary. Feel No Pain tacked onto your Warlord (who likely has 2+/3++) makes him frustratingly resilient.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 06:38:04
Subject: Re:Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Farseer Pef wrote:From what I have seen, it isn't Terminators that get taken over Honor Guard. It is Command Squad. They can get pricey, but you can grab 3++ shields, power weapons, and, most importantly, an Apothecary. Feel No Pain tacked onto your Warlord (who likely has 2+/3++) makes him frustratingly resilient.
This exactly. Yea you will most likely pump in much more pts, however you have so many more options. Boost your T, survivability and mobility with a bike. Give your unit FNP with a Apothecary. 3++ with SS. Kit them out with (almost) ANY weapon in the codex. Also you can pick these guys up with a Captain, Libby or Chappy. So to answer the question simply they are not taken because too many other things are available which require less work to function in the same role. I'm not saying they don't work, but its easier and more flexible to go with other options.
The fairly limited options of what should be the most elite squad in your army is just plain boring. WHO decided that HG didn't need to take specialized shooting weaponry or an invul save. So they get a PW, bolter and BP. . . . . .woohoo, how does that say elite to you. The armory apperently stops opening for you when you start protecting the live of the most important person in your army, the Chapter Master.
Another personal reason, I simply don't want to build the squad. Modeling options seem too limited and plain boring.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 07:57:13
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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PipeAlley wrote:What are the intended targets for these tooled up HG? Just wondering since, yes they kill anything, if they get there. Do they? I love Honor Guard. In fact, it angers me when my Space Marine opponents don't bring Honor Guard in their lists. Why would they not take Honor Guard? Why would they deny me the honor of annihilating their 210-point unit in a single turn of assault with my 120-point seeker squad? :(
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 07:59:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 16:55:53
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Irked Necron Immortal
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I've used them in the past with varying success and basically boils down to this: they are very expensive for doing one thing well.
Honor Guards' strengths come in from the Wargear they carry, not the stats themselves. And in order to kit them out with the banner, they start getting rather pricey. Yes, good wargear does make them into something scary but its a lot of points you are spending on a squad that will still only have 1 Wound at Toughness 4.
Also while they are almost as durable as Terminators with 2+ armor, they lack any invul saves; making them into shiny scraps as soon as a MC or power axe/fists get into the melee.
Another problem lies in the way power weapons work now. Since you have to be reduced to Init 1 in order to kill TEQ, you are at more of a risk of getting killed before you can even strike. Which means your expensive Honor Guards are only really going to be effective against troops that are far worse than they are in cc.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PXaEUwAZSc
"There is just something to be said about a 100, Green-tide Orks charging at you... it is unnerving... even to the most experienced player..."
5200 pnts
Flames of War Panzerkompanie
"RELEASE THE KRA- I MEAN, C'TAN!"
- Anonymous Necron Overlord who totally didn't impersonate Liam Neeson.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 17:38:54
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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Also, taking all axes on HG is a great way to see them butchered. Lychguard have a field day, hammernators swing at the same time. Take a mix, never all axes.
And calculating their boosted strength and attacks without including the cost of Tyberos included in unit cost is very misleading.
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They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 21:21:14
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I always assumed it was because they are impossible to buy. They come in packs of 4 with calgar. Because you know I really needed multiple calgars
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/07 21:25:07
Subject: Why don't people take Honour Guard?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Because they can't take a bike or melta guns, grav guns,
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