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Blasts can hit friendly units and units locked in combat even though you cannot target those initially

From BRB Special Rule Appendix, Blast Entry

Never mind, arguments done - straight out of the FAQ:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

This explains the rule, and specifies that units who cannot be hit except by snapshots cannot be the target of Death ray. Does not specify only Flyers, it merely says units with the rule about SnapFire, and that because flyers have it, therefor this.

Argue this, I dare you. Look even more wrong. Find some turning wording hole to cry about and insist that Deathray and Blasts can hit units that can only be targeted by Snapshots. Because news flash - hitting a unit IS targeting it, thus you can't do it.

And no T.O. on the face of the planet with this presented to him is going to let a Deathray hit Invis units.

Accepted it yet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Blasts can hit friendly units and units locked in combat even though you cannot target those initially

From BRB Special Rule Appendix, Blast Entry

Spoiler:

Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond
the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance
of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases,
hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight
(or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

This is a special rule overwriting the Wound Allocation rules in a specific circumstance, hence why blasts can wound your own models, they wouldn't be able to without this rule. This does not set the precedent.

Death Ray

And I think after proving that GWs rules work the way I said they did, by their own explanation, that I'm going to unsubscribe this thread. Far too much obscene bias towards your own army, drowning out logical thought.

Just remember, you now know how it works (although, deep down I'm sure you always did). Trying to convince players at your local otherwise, without showing them GWs explanation in the FAQ is cheating. And the best part is that it's not even an errata, just an explanation of what I'm surprised even made it to FAQ it's so blatant.

Enjoy the powerful Deathstar - I will be. Don't try and bend/ignore a bunch of rules to your benefit though. Telling anyone otherwise at this point is just blatant cheating. Although I doubt anyone not playing Necrons would have let you get away with this nonsense anyway lol.

0/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Death Ray

Spoiler:

Death Ray: To Fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

Breh... the FAQ even specifically named the Necron Death Ray, and explained how it works vs units who must be Snap Fired at - it doesn't.

They ain't gunna make another FAQ for the Death Ray with a word in front of it looool

I'm done, the will to deny facts is too much in this thread

 SHUPPET wrote:
And I think after proving that GWs rules work the way I said they did, by their own explanation, that I'm going to unsubscribe this thread. Far too much obscene bias towards your own army, drowning out logical thought.

Just remember, you now know how it works (although, deep down I'm sure you always did). Trying to convince players at your local otherwise, without showing them GWs explanation in the FAQ is cheating. And the best part is that it's not even an errata, just an explanation of what I'm surprised even made it to FAQ it's so blatant.

Enjoy the powerful Deathstar - I will be. Don't try and bend/ignore a bunch of rules to your benefit though. Telling anyone otherwise at this point is just blatant cheating. Although I doubt anyone not playing Necrons would have let you get away with this nonsense anyway lol.

0/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Death Ray

Spoiler:

Death Ray: To Fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

Breh... the FAQ even specifically named the Necron Death Ray, and explained how it works vs units who must be Snap Fired at - it doesn't.

They ain't gunna make another FAQ for the Death Ray with a word in front of it looool

I'm done, the will to deny facts is too much in this thread

You keep confusing targeting something with hitting it. You can hit something you did not target.

Yeah, me and the guy who wrote the FAQ have it confused, your guys way (and not surprisingly, the most convenient way for you) is definitely the correct one.

If you get hit by something the weapon is targeting you and is still subject to targeting restrictions, whether it was originally aimed at you or not. As far as I can tell, all rules support this, hence the FAQ, hence the need for a special rule to overwrite this when landing a blast on your own units or in combat, hence special rules needed to allow you to hit units if your blast scatters out of range.

If one of these Cronbears can find where it describes targets as something more specific than "the units your weapon ends up hitting", I am more than willing to be proven wrong and would love for this to work. But it will have to be through PM, I won't be checking this thread any further after certain contributors decided to throw logic to the wind and just go with what helps them be top tier the most.

Wait so with that line of though i can target a unit next to a flyer and have a plasma blast scatter onto it and damage it?

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so with that line of though i can target a unit next to a flyer and have a plasma blast scatter onto it and damage it?

They would be hit except this rule prevents it from being hit accidentally.

Hard to Hit



So basically if invisibility had Hard to Hit (or something worded like it) then blasts and beams could not hit it even accidentally. However invisibility does not have that special rule.

Ah ok right.

[edit]
No, you know what? This was settled a long time ago. One guy claiming everyone else is wrong?
I think I'm done entertaining this troll.

This is what the FAQ says



This is what Shuppet wants it to say

Checkmate to col_impact.
Combo does what it says on the box.
We're done here.

Yeah me and the guy who wrote that Games Workshop Official FAQ a few posts up saying that Deathrays cannot hit units that can't be shot at except by Snapshots just don't quite get the rules.

We aren't as smart at knowing how things work as Dakka user skoffs and the whole two other Necron players who hat constitute "everyone" that disagree with us.


Looool the lengths this guy will go to is hilarious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Checkmate to col_impact.
Combo does what it says on the box.
We're done here.

Yeah good luck pushing that past your local T.O.

Can you explain what the point of a FAQ stating all that Jazz about all deathstrikes and Deathrays would be, if it does... Absolutely nothing?

Plus, if it can't target it, it still can't hit it, that's the original point... My god you guys will argue anything to be right.

 SHUPPET wrote:


Plus, if it can't target it, it still can't hit it, that's the original point... My god you guys will argue anything to be right.

You original point is flawed. There is a difference between targeting something and being able to hit it. You can hit your own units but you are never allowed to target them.

Is it possible that the FAQ was not made for no purpose at all, and that targeting works how me and the FAQ guy think it does, and not how you want it to for killing Invis Stars in a shot?

Could it even be a POSSIBILITY to you??

Haha




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can hit your own units because there is a specific rule letting you do so and overwriting the standard Wound Allocation rules.. My word. Keep clutching at straws.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Is it possible that the FAQ was not made for no purpose at all, and that targeting works how me and the FAQ guy think it does, and not how you want it to for killing Invis Stars in a shot?

Could it even be a POSSIBILITY to you??

Haha




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can hit your own units because there is a specific rule letting you do so and overwriting the standard Wound Allocation rules.. My word. Keep clutching at straws.

I don't think the FAQ guy or anybody else reading this thread has problems differentiating the words 'target' and 'hit'.

There is nothing else to it... You pull this gak on a guy with an Invis star, he pulls out the FAQ.., who do you honestly think the T.O.will go with?

HONESTLY.

Even if it did work, which it doesn't, it will never be a reliably competitive tactic as 9/10 T.O.s will rule in favour of that FAQ, a the dumb one will fall for all this silly gak lol.

Give it up. You lose. Your insistence that you don't has ruined your thread. When you get to the point that you are saying the FAQ guy has the rules wrong to support a cheesy interpretation... You know you are strugglin an looking pretty darn TFG

 SHUPPET wrote:
There is nothing else to it... You pull this gak on a guy with an Invis star, he pulls out the FAQ.., who do you honestly think the T.O.will go with?

HONESTLY.

Even if it did work, which it doesn't, it will never be a reliably competitive tactic as 9/10 T.O.s will rule in favour of that FAQ, a the dumb one will fall for all this silly gak lol.

Give it up. You lose. Your insistence that you don't has ruined your thread. When you get to the point that you are saying the FAQ guy has the rules wrong to support a cheesy interpretation... You know you are strugglin an looking pretty darn TFG

The FAQ has it right and used the correct terms. You are struggling with the difference between 'target' and 'hit'. I don't think TOs or anyone will struggle with it like you do. It's in plain English.

col_impact wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Is it possible that the FAQ was not made for no purpose at all, and that targeting works how me and the FAQ guy think it does, and not how you want it to for killing Invis Stars in a shot?

Could it even be a POSSIBILITY to you??

Haha




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can hit your own units because there is a specific rule letting you do so and overwriting the standard Wound Allocation rules.. My word. Keep clutching at straws.

I don't think the FAQ guy or anybody else reading this thread has problems differentiating the words 'target' and 'hit'.

So assuming hit units don't become targets of the weapon... What exactly does that FAQ do? Enlighten me, show me how you got it right without the FAQ getting it wrong. If you can't do this, I'm gonna go ahead and assume the official FAQ is the ruling we will go off here, not the opinion of a disgruntled and massively bias Cron player haha

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Well, so much for getting to sleep at a reasonable hour...

The FAQ is not wrong. It says exactly what we've all been saying the entire thread: you can not TARGET those units with the Deathray... but it does not say they can't be hit by it.
You seem to be the only one who can't make the distinction.

You repeatedly claim that TOs will side with your bizarre reasoning that invisible units can not be harmed by template weapons that might scatter onto them. How about we see if we can put that to the test.

jy2, you're pretty well acquainted with the pro scene. If you see this, do you know of any Dakka users who are judges/TOs that might be able to give us an off the record ruling on this one?

Well so far I've learned two things in this thread:
1) Death rays work on invisible units. Although it is convoluted and probably should be FAQed.
2)How to use the ignore feature to avoid reading posts of unreasonable and hostile users.

I'd accept Jy2's verdict on what he thinks would fly

Either way it ain't working where I play tho

I'd also like to point out that the FAQ says only snapshots can hit them whereas the BRB says only snapshots can target them, further supporting the thought that units hit by a weapon and units targeted are the same thing to GW as well



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On top of this, RAW you still CANNOT ASSIGN WOUNDS TO A UNIT YOU DO NOT TARGET.

You refused to quote the rules I stated even though you are quite capable of doing so, why is that?

And before you say well RAW means you can't assign wounds to your own models - you can, they have their own rule stating it.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'd accept Jy2's verdict on what he thinks would fly

*ahem*

 jy2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So is the target of a weapon the initial unit chosen, or the ones it hits? Because wound allocation wording doesn't allow you to even assign wounds to anything not part of "the target unit".

That's not true.

Say there are 2 enemy units right next to each other - Unit 1 and Unit 2. You then target Unit 1 with a flamer template. That template also happens to hit a few models from Unit 2. You can kill models in Unit 2 even though you didn't target them.

The wording could use a FAQ, but I would play it how skoffs described. Target Unit 1 (non-invisible unit) and then try to draw the line such that it hits Unit 1 and Unit 2 (the invisible unit). I look at it like the Jaws of the World Wolf of previous edition with regards to how it should work.

Well, I guess that settles it, then.

Skoffs,

Why don't you add a poll to this thread to get a consensus on what the majority of players think with regards to the FDR and invisible units?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:

jy2, you're pretty well acquainted with the pro scene. If you see this, do you know of any Dakka users who are judges/TOs that might be able to give us an off the record ruling on this one?

My feeling and intepretation is that, although the rules for the FDR tells you how it works (i.e. by picking a point and then drawing a line), it is still a shooting attack. Since nothing in the rules explicitly tells you that you don't need a target, you still need to declare a target. Basically, this was the same kind of argument with Jaws of the World Wolf, where it was FAQ'd to be the first unit that was hit was the target. Thus, I wouldn't feel comfortable if people were to play it as pick a point just anywhere (on a non-unit) and then have that line hit an Invisible unit. To me, that is the same as targeting the Invisible unit. However, I'd have no problems if you pick a point on a valid, non-Invisible enemy unit. So that enemy unit then becomes the target. Then you could draw the line to hit other units (except zooming/swooping flyers).

That is how I feel it should work, and I will bring this up to Reece, the TO of the BAO and the LVO.

Sounds perfectly reasonable.
While you're at it, you might want to see what Reece thinks about that other FDR RAW point of contention Sigvatr raised (the one where, if the FDR's line crosses two units, hitting 3 models from the first and 1 model from the second, what the total hits would look like: 6 hits for the first unit and 2 hits for the second unit, or 8 hits both, for each unit).
I naturally assumed it would be seperate units/separate hits, like the old Doomscythe FAQ entry cleared up, but as FW haven't released a FAQ for the Sentry Pylons, it looks like (thanks to poor writing) it could technically go either way.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Never mind, arguments done - straight out of the FAQ:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

This explains the rule, and specifies that units who cannot be hit except by snapshots cannot be the target of Death ray. Does not specify only Flyers, it merely says units with the rule about SnapFire, and that because flyers have it, therefor this.

Does not specify only Flyers

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

I'm beginning to think that you are not purposefully trolling rules-savvy players, but that there's a severe lack of understanding of the English language on your part.

Also, that's 3 pages where you babble about RAW but did not provide a single (!) actual rules argument. Poor.

Dude, it's settled. No further need to bait him.
Let's put this one to bed.

In regards to the original point of this thread (determining how this deathstar would fare against other competitive deathstars):
• against single model unit MCs, this combo wouldn't do very well.
• against anything with units with several models in them, this combo ranges from good to devastating (the more models in the unit, the worse it is for them).
• against invisible units, works fine.
• against rerollable 2++, works okay, as long as there are enough models in the unit.
• against zooming/swooping flyers, doesn't work.

What other types of deathstar are there to factor in?

The most important factor is your opponent. Against someone who did not play against such a list before, you are highly likely to win the game by the end of turn 2.

Experienced opponents can, more or less, effectively counter the Deathstar although the counters are rather limited - the most effective being reserving most of your army or extremely downsizing the number of models on the field. Against footslogging armies, it's borderline autowin.

Being a hard counter to invisibility is another strong upside.

It does measure up against other Necron deathstars, but...well, it's very situational and depending on your opponent. Things like the T-C'Tan are more flexible and lack hard counters. Royal Disco Inferno might be similar as it also is a very situational army that fares well against MEQ but does terribly against a lot of other lists.

I think it would be advisable to wait for some feedback from TOs on this subject. Different tourneys have previously played Death Rays differently I believe so really nothing here has convinced me that TOs will allow it to hit invisible units. Some of them might?

Invisibility is pretty broken and I would love it to have a hard counter. But even if rules correctly, I'm not sure that this is such a thing.

Remember that even it's most positive advocate here is saying it has to target another unit, meaning that it has to hit another unit first, I would generally say. The beam has to hit another unit and the beam has to reach a significant number of the invisible unit to earn it's place. The average length of the beam is 12.5" - how much is it really going to do in it's one turn of shooting before the enemy either - shoots it off the table, or assaults the arse out of it.

It's not even like you can be very careful about how you place it. VO's deep strike is just as unpredictable as anyone else's with two thirds of the time scattering on what tend to be quite cover filled battlefields these days.

Too situational and way too expensive IMHO. The potential is vast, but too easy to mitigate against.