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 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh. So, how do Ork slugga boyz accomplish swamping Space Marines? Is it because they are stronger and better with thier crude weapons or they don't and get slaughtered?

Orks are incredibly stronger than humans, it's like the difference between a human and a pissed off Silverback Gorilla, although thinking about it now the difference in strength may even be greater. Plus Ork Choppas are empowered by the WHAAAGH!, making as good as the numerous (and stupid) monomolecular blades used by the Imperium.

Wouldn't the Marine's incredible reflexes and excellent close quarter training, along with the ineffectiveness of large mobs versus a single target, make it very difficult for a slugga mob to take down the marine? Or will enough brute strength break the fether?

It's just a case of brute strength and bad terrain. If fifty orks with choppas with a couple Nobz in included jump you, and you don't have a weapon like a thunder hammer, terminator armor, a jump pack, Iron Halo/Rosarius, or a flamer, you're dead. I could maybe see a Tac Sergeant with a chainsword or a power weapon coming out on top if he was on top of elevated terrain like a hill, but fifty Orks is going to drown anyone in melee without good gear.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh. So, how do Ork slugga boyz accomplish swamping Space Marines? Is it because they are stronger and better with thier crude weapons or they don't and get slaughtered?

First of all, the Ork usually has a better weapon than a generic Tactical Marine (Choppas are more or less chainsword equivalent).

Second, while not as strong as the Marine, they're much stronger than a human being.

Thirdly, Orks are much harder to put down. You cut a man's head in half or rip his arm off and he's down. That's not always true for an Ork. And even harming them at all, though obviously possible for a Marine, is going to be more difficult than harming a human being.

Mmkay, that makes sense.

So, with all of that in mind, I can see how 50 Night Lords could do kill millions of people. An average human has little chance of hurting a marine unless on the open battle field with a lot of AT guns. Night Lords do not operate that way so the only encounters the humans had with them was in CQC. Which probably had a similar aftermath to that of when all the monsters got lose and murdered the security forces at the end of Cabin in the Woods. So, I would say that it was probably a horrifying experience for the citizens as city after city was liquified.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh. So, how do Ork slugga boyz accomplish swamping Space Marines? Is it because they are stronger and better with thier crude weapons or they don't and get slaughtered?

First of all, the Ork usually has a better weapon than a generic Tactical Marine (Choppas are more or less chainsword equivalent).

Second, while not as strong as the Marine, they're much stronger than a human being.

Thirdly, Orks are much harder to put down. You cut a man's head in half or rip his arm off and he's down. That's not always true for an Ork. And even harming them at all, though obviously possible for a Marine, is going to be more difficult than harming a human being.

Have you played Space Marine?

I think it is pretty accurate in how it portrays Ork VS Marine melee. (Although Marine VS Nob would be notably less of a hitstunfest.)

So, “Marine hide to get his armor back, find some lone ork to do an execution and get his health back, jump back to combat, get seriously hit, rinse and repeat” is an accurate description of Orks vs Marine melee? I only played the demo, but it ended exactly like that .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, “Marine hide to get his armor back, find some lone ork to do an execution and get his health back, jump back to combat, get seriously hit, rinse and repeat” is an accurate description of Orks vs Marine melee? I only played the demo, but it ended exactly like that .

No. If you're good you don't need executions to restore health when fighting a mob, it's just a lot of back pedaling and heavy combos coupled with AOE stun. Helps though if you have a power axe or a thunder hammer.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, “Marine hide to get his armor back, find some lone ork to do an execution and get his health back, jump back to combat, get seriously hit, rinse and repeat” is an accurate description of Orks vs Marine melee? I only played the demo, but it ended exactly like that .

It's exactly like that, yes.

Wow…this thread cracks me up! I get it that what is being described are completely fictional characters in a fictional setting but if you try to wedge them into real world comparisons you need to use some real world facts. Like physics, for example. Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply. Inertia is a very real thing despite the last transformer movie you saw. Space marines aren’t dodging much, especially bullets. Oh, and I guess it’s been said they are completely invulnerable in close combat? Even if true, so what? If they really are that invincible who’s going to bother? Just keep shooting at them. Not just with high-powered rifles, but with military hardware. Oh, let me guess…they are immune to .50 rounds or even 20-30mm and larger rounds too?

The onus is on them…they are the ones trying to exterminate the populace. If they use viral bombs or other weapons of mass destruction that is one thing, but saying 50 marines could wipe out Atlanta is preposterous. Well, not impossible given enough time I suppose, like maybe a year or two. What, are the citizens going to keep pouring into some arena so the space marine cans just slaughter them continually? No, they are going to have to hunt their prey, all the while dodging fire and avoiding any booby traps, IED’s, mines, etc. If 20 guardsmen can kill a marine then why not tens of thousands of people trying to save their own lives and the lives of their loved ones?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, “Marine hide to get his armor back, find some lone ork to do an execution and get his health back, jump back to combat, get seriously hit, rinse and repeat” is an accurate description of Orks vs Marine melee? I only played the demo, but it ended exactly like that .

It's exactly like that, yes.

Not really, it just depends on the difficulty level. Although if you're fighting something other than normal boys, yeah, you're either running away or spamming the act of faith ability or whatever it was called.

Oh, let me guess…they are immune to .50 rounds or even 20-30mm and larger rounds too?

In some books, yes.

No, they are going to have to hunt their prey, all the while dodging fire and avoiding any booby traps, IED’s, mines

Atlanta doesn't have mines. It's not a militarized society.

Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply

This doesn't make any sense. Plenty of football players are not terribly under a quarter-ton and move plenty fast.

then why not tens of thousands of people trying to save their own lives and the lives of their loved ones?

Because the civilian firearms in the city of Atlanta couldn't stop a modern military regiment from occupying the city, let alone half a Company of Space Marines who are half a platoon each.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not really, it just depends on the difficulty level.

Why would I use anything but the highest difficulty level?

 Psienesis wrote:

Oh, let me guess…they are immune to .50 rounds or even 20-30mm and larger rounds too?

In some books, yes.
Yet they die to grot guns in game?

No, they are going to have to hunt their prey, all the while dodging fire and avoiding any booby traps, IED’s, mines

Atlanta doesn't have mines. It's not a militarized society.
There are 4 military bases within the metro area I believe. Or are they off limits in a fight to the death?

Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply

This doesn't make any sense. Plenty of football players are not terribly under a quarter-ton and move plenty fast.
Space Marines are closer to cow-sized...I was trying to be generous.

then why not tens of thousands of people trying to save their own lives and the lives of their loved ones?

Because the civilian firearms in the city of Atlanta couldn't stop a modern military regiment from occupying the city, let alone half a Company of Space Marines who are half a platoon each.

Guess again.

Inconsistent fluff is inconsistent.

 amanita wrote:
Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply.

Space Marines also don't exist no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply.

Take this statement and repeat it across the rest of your argument, and you then realize why what you're saying is silly.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Have you played Space Marine?

I think it is pretty accurate in how it portrays Ork VS Marine melee. (Although Marine VS Nob would be notably less of a hitstunfest.)

Yes, I have played Space Marine. I don't know about that, I feel like the average Marine wouldn't fare quite as well as Titus.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not really, it just depends on the difficulty level.

Why would I use anything but the highest difficulty level?

Because otherwise it becomes "lets shoot all the Chaos Space Marines from very far away to make sure we don't die to plasma cannon fire". Or Ork Commando Nobs.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


Have you played Space Marine?

I think it is pretty accurate in how it portrays Ork VS Marine melee. (Although Marine VS Nob would be notably less of a hitstunfest.)

Yes, I have played Space Marine. I don't know about that, I feel like the average Marine wouldn't fare quite as well as Titus.

Yes and no.

Talking game mechanics, fluff Marines seem to have more passive and less active damage mitigiation than Titus. Titus selfheals over time and can even get big selfheals by executing his foes, whereas it seems fluff Marines replace this with plain damage resistance, ability to parry melee attacks, et cetera.

Undoubtedly, as soon as you reach the Chaos Marine part (Especially the Daemon Prince) you notice that he's far from a bread and butter Tac Marine, but if we are talking exclusively about the parts where you combat Orks, it feels somewhat lore-consistent. Far from perfect (Orks are a tad too accurate, haha), but somewhat.

 amanita wrote:
Wow…this thread cracks me up! I get it that what is being described are completely fictional characters in a fictional setting but if you try to wedge them into real world comparisons you need to use some real world facts. Like physics, for example. Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply. Inertia is a very real thing despite the last transformer movie you saw. Space marines aren’t dodging much, especially bullets. Oh, and I guess it’s been said they are completely invulnerable in close combat? Even if true, so what? If they really are that invincible who’s going to bother? Just keep shooting at them. Not just with high-powered rifles, but with military hardware. Oh, let me guess…they are immune to .50 rounds or even 20-30mm and larger rounds too?

The onus is on them…they are the ones trying to exterminate the populace. If they use viral bombs or other weapons of mass destruction that is one thing, but saying 50 marines could wipe out Atlanta is preposterous. Well, not impossible given enough time I suppose, like maybe a year or two. What, are the citizens going to keep pouring into some arena so the space marine cans just slaughter them continually? No, they are going to have to hunt their prey, all the while dodging fire and avoiding any booby traps, IED’s, mines, etc. If 20 guardsmen can kill a marine then why not tens of thousands of people trying to save their own lives and the lives of their loved ones?

Half ton actually, and yes he does move fast because GW said so. Yes, a .50 caliber rifle wouldn't severely injure a Marine most of the time.

Because those guardsmen are equipped for the job.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not really, it just depends on the difficulty level.

Why would I use anything but the highest difficulty level?

I barely noticed a difference when I swapped to Hard, myself.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not really, it just depends on the difficulty level.

Why would I use anything but the highest difficulty level?

I barely noticed a difference when I swapped to Hard, myself.

I unfortunately just seem to be a plasma and frag magnet. Doesn't help I like melee over ranged combat.

As a side note, Titus -is- better than standard Marines in Space Marine. When you play Exterminatus as a standard Marine, you immediately notice a few changes compared to campaign where you are Titus:

Titus reloads slightly faster

Titus' weapons suffer less bullet spread (Most likely due to him compensating with his aim)

Titus' melee strikes with the Thunder Hammer are faster, and the last hit in each combo with chainsword and power axe are much more devastating

Titus' stun attacks are more effective

When using the Jump Pack, Titus' Ground Pound attack can be used at a far less steep angle

The difference between Captain Titus and Brother Genericus in Space Marine is noticeable.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If 40 monsters showed up in Atlanta me and others with guns would overwhelm them with superior numbers. Its like infantry men overrunning armored formations, your looking at a massacre but it can be done.

That happens with healthy soldiers and good morale. If you read the novel then you'd know that the citizenry they were dealing with were scared, battered, and weak.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Orks are incredibly stronger than humans, it's like the difference between a human and a pissed off Silverback Gorilla, although thinking about it now the difference in strength may even be greater. Plus Ork Choppas are empowered by the WHAAAGH!, making as good as the numerous (and stupid) monomolecular blades used by the Imperium.

Yet Armageddon Orks Hunters will still kick some Orks asses in melee .

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
By glorious victory?

For the Mustang, yeah.

I am not sure. We must experiment. Who wants to volunteer?

I'll drive. I'm not legally allowed to anyway, so no licences at risk!

As for the Ork Hunters, they're just what happens when you combo Rambo with Aikido. :p

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because otherwise it becomes "lets shoot all the Chaos Space Marines from very far away to make sure we don't die to plasma cannon fire". Or Ork Commando Nobs.

As I mentioned, I only played the demo.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because otherwise it becomes "lets shoot all the Chaos Space Marines from very far away to make sure we don't die to plasma cannon fire". Or Ork Commando Nobs.

As I mentioned, I only played the demo.

The game got nuts at the end. You even literally punch a Daemon Prince to death while falling thousands of feet from an orbital spire.

It's both a shame and a blessing that the Space Marine game isn't canon.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because otherwise it becomes "lets shoot all the Chaos Space Marines from very far away to make sure we don't die to plasma cannon fire". Or Ork Commando Nobs.

As I mentioned, I only played the demo.

The game got nuts at the end. You even literally punch a Daemon Prince to death while falling thousands of feet from an orbital spire.

It's both a shame and a blessing that the Space Marine game isn't canon.

Correction: Punched THEN crushed his head. Always wear helmets people.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's both a shame and a blessing that the Space Marine game isn't canon.

There is no canon. Beside, the main character is still not as good as Ciaphas Cain .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's both a shame and a blessing that the Space Marine game isn't canon.

There is no canon. Beside, the main character is still not as good as Ciaphas Cain .

No, I mean it was confirmed to be non-canon by the Devs, and it takes place on a Forge World that was gobbled up by the Tyranids (stated so in a Codex IIRC) during the 41st Millennium with Titus, Captain of the Second Company, despite Cato Sicarus should be quite alive, and is indeed quite alive at the time.

 Psienesis wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
If 40 monsters showed up in Atlanta me and others with guns would overwhelm them with superior numbers. Its like infantry men overrunning armored formations, your looking at a massacre but it can be done.

There are times when mundane firepower in possession of civilians is laughably inefficient. When it comes to Space Marines in the fluff, lasguns and autoguns just aren't going to cut it. They will actually save the ammo to walk over to you from across the battlefield, rip your arm off of your body, and beat you to death with in front of all your friends.

Imagine a trained swordsman in armor in a locked room with 300 people. The swordsman starts to attack some of the people. Only the first 5 or so people have a chance, after 5 of them are cut in two and blood starts gushing everywhere the remaining 295 are going to trample each other trying to get out of the room. When they cannot get out they will be cut down from behind.

Very quickly most people's mind would change from how can I stop the swordsman, to how can I get away from the swordsman.



This is exactly the way the night lords operate. They show up, the 10 million people are not unified and have no real leader. They destroy any weapons that can seriously hurt them, kill anyone capable of leading, then they start brutally, gruesomely killing people and people start fleeing in terror. People start killing each other to try to live a few more minutes. Some kill themselves to avoid the torturous death at the hands of the night lords. Others die of starvation or exhaustion.

 amanita wrote:
Wow…this thread cracks me up! I get it that what is being described are completely fictional characters in a fictional setting but if you try to wedge them into real world comparisons you need to use some real world facts. Like physics, for example. Sorry, but a quarter ton or heavier man isn’t moving very fast no matter how much hand-wavium you want to apply. Inertia is a very real thing despite the last transformer movie you saw. Space marines aren’t dodging much, especially bullets. Oh, and I guess it’s been said they are completely invulnerable in close combat? Even if true, so what? If they really are that invincible who’s going to bother? Just keep shooting at them. Not just with high-powered rifles, but with military hardware. Oh, let me guess…they are immune to .50 rounds or even 20-30mm and larger rounds too?

The onus is on them…they are the ones trying to exterminate the populace. If they use viral bombs or other weapons of mass destruction that is one thing, but saying 50 marines could wipe out Atlanta is preposterous. Well, not impossible given enough time I suppose, like maybe a year or two. What, are the citizens going to keep pouring into some arena so the space marine cans just slaughter them continually? No, they are going to have to hunt their prey, all the while dodging fire and avoiding any booby traps, IED’s, mines, etc. If 20 guardsmen can kill a marine then why not tens of thousands of people trying to save their own lives and the lives of their loved ones?

apply the real word setting for just a second. Imagine that you live in atlanta's suburbs and one day 100 scary men in show up in downtown in body armor with automatic weapons and start shooting up the place. You hear some reports of random shootings downtown, seems a lot of people were killed and there is blood all over the streets.

Do you immidiately grab your gun, get on the subway and head downtwon?
No, you call all your friends and tell them to stay out of downtown and assume the police will handle it.

Next you hear that the police have started engadging the men downtown and they are not doing well. A lot of police officers have been killed in pretty gruesome fashion. You see some pictures of some of the police strung up on light posts by their innards one of them still barely alive. You hear the national guard is being called in to help the police.

Do you now grab your gun and head into downtown
No, you call all your friends and see what they are doing, but you find that all phone lines are busy. You talk to some people nextdoor and you find that everyone is more terrified than you are.

Next you hear that the army is losing to the armed men in downtown. You see some footage of a firefight, where 3 of these armed men proceed to walk through a few hundred troops and police officers killing them all and then the video ends.

Do you now grab your gun and head to stop them
No you start bunkering yourself and your family in the basement. You head out to buy supplies and find that looting has started, shelves are bare, and that there are no longer any police/order in your section of the suburbs. You try to call some of your friends again and find all the phone lines are dead.

Next you hear the shooting in the distance, perhaps you peak out to investigate and find that it isnt any of the scary men in body armor but just local gangs fighting with each other over drugs, supplies, guns, or living space. You notice a few houses have been burned and then you see a dead woman in the street who has been raped.

Do you now grab your gun and head to stop the scary men?
No you finish bunkering yourself and your family in the basement, lock all the doors and throw away the keys.

Then the power goes out, you hear screams every night, you smell the scent of human flesh burning, and you are starting to run out of supplies.

At some point it gets to be too much, you dont know if it's the scary men in body armor or the former citizenry out on the prowl coming to rape your daughter but you think you had better get out. You head out early in the morning, find your truck still intact and are happy you saved a few cans of gas. You load your family in the truck and head out onto the road to anywhere but here. The scenes are shocking. Everything has been looted, burned, there are bodies, most of them mutilated, everywhere. It is slow going as there are so many cars/trucks/bodies in the road. You come across some people who arent trying to kill you, but neither one of you trusts the other enough to get close enough to talk. You run into another group and have to run as they start shooting at you; there are more of them then there are of you. Finally you get out of town and feel a little bit safer, but everywhere you can see the evidence of battle.

You keep moving but eventually, if you dont starve or get killed by hard up former townsfolk, they come for you and there is nothing you can do.