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Shriek is a witch fire power isn't it? So you have to roll to hit first.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
But the effects of the power require it to.

What effect does Psychic Shriek have on a Rhino? Go through the entire process.
Now, cite the rule that tells you to treat a Chariot differently.

How many dice do I roll to hit? 1000?

Fling, desu and Andrew, do we really need that argument (again)?

 Happyjew wrote:
Fling, desu and Andrew, do we really need that argument (again)?

If so there is a thread for it here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603219.page

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But the effects of the power require it to.

What effect does Psychic Shriek have on a Rhino? Go through the entire process.
Now, cite the rule that tells you to treat a Chariot differently.

Well, as the Rhino has no Leadership Value, nothing happens.

How about the lines that have been quoted, establishing a single model unit with two profiles, one of which does have a Leadership value which allows up to proceed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But the effects of the power require it to.

What effect does Psychic Shriek have on a Rhino? Go through the entire process.
Now, cite the rule that tells you to treat a Chariot differently.

There is no effect on a Rhino, granted, but what has that got to do with a dual profile model?

The unit has been allocated X wounds, one profile can be affected, one can't.

How do you allocate those wounds? Apparently neither of us has raw backing to resolve them. Game breaks!

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Fling, desu and Andrew, do we really need that argument (again)?

I was not aware that thread existed and not trying to resurrect any old arguments. Sorry.

Cheers

Andrew

 Zagman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But the effects of the power require it to.

What effect does Psychic Shriek have on a Rhino? Go through the entire process.
Now, cite the rule that tells you to treat a Chariot differently.

Well, as the Rhino has no Leadership Value, nothing happens.

How about the lines that have been quoted, establishing a single model unit with two profiles, one of which does have a Leadership value which allows up to proceed?

And again, why do you get to choose which profile this is resolved against? You keep asserting that we have to, but haven't cited a rule *allowing* it.

You're arguing intent, not actual rules.

But then again, as far as I can see neither are you. You have provided rules about allocating hits, but these are generated wounds, you have provided rules about the use of leadership on the CB, but what's important here is the units leadership.

What the crux of the matter seems to be, if you have wounds allocated to a unit, of which one part is immune and one part isn't how do you do it. Even the rules about allocating wounds when you can't determine which is closer is irrelevant because that talks about models.

D6 it it would seem.

Cheers

Andrew

The Chariot is a model with a Ld characteristic and a W characteristic. The power tells us what to do with those.

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

I'm really not. I'm not arguing for Chariots to be immune to PS. I'm asking people to prove their arguments. There's a difference.

You have provided rules about allocating hits, but these are generated wounds

And how are those wounds allocated? Absent any other statement it'd be the closest model. People have said that since the CCB cannot take wounds that the Rider must, but have failed utterly to show any rules support for that statement.

you have provided rules about the use of leadership on the CB, but what's important here is the units leadership.

The unit's leadership is the Rider's... when it's allowed to be used. There's no permission to use the Rider's leadership in this scenario - people are making an argument of precedent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angelic wrote:
The Chariot is a model with a Ld characteristic and a W characteristic.

This is an incorrect statement.
The Chariot is a model that might have a Ld Characteristic and a W characteristic, but doesn't always.

I think at this point we can all agree that it needs an FAQ.

The Chariot rules tells us to allocate hits, not Wounds. As such neither player has permission to decide which profile of the chariot is affected.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

This is an incorrect statement.
The Chariot is a model that might have a Ld Characteristic and a W characteristic, but doesn't always.

It is a correct statement. Chariots are always vehicle and non-vehicle. The non-vehicle always has a Ld and W characteristic, it may have a value of '-' (not aware of any in the game currently), but it's there.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

This is an incorrect statement.
The Chariot is a model that might have a Ld Characteristic and a W characteristic, but doesn't always.

It is a correct statement. Chariots are always vehicle and non-vehicle. The non-vehicle always has a Ld and W characteristic, it may have a value of '-' (not aware of any in the game currently), but it's there.

Citation needed for the underlined statement.
They have vehicle and non-vehicle profiles, but the unit type is Vehicle still.

Chariots move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Saying that there's two unit types means that this rule gets broken by moving more than 6".

 Happyjew wrote:
I think at this point we can all agree that it needs an FAQ.

The Chariot rules tells us to allocate hits, not Wounds. As such neither player has permission to decide which profile of the chariot is affected.

This is pretty much the situation

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

This is an incorrect statement.
The Chariot is a model that might have a Ld Characteristic and a W characteristic, but doesn't always.

It is a correct statement. Chariots are always vehicle and non-vehicle. The non-vehicle always has a Ld and W characteristic, it may have a value of '-' (not aware of any in the game currently), but it's there.

Citation needed for the underlined statement.
They have vehicle and non-vehicle profiles, but the unit type is Vehicle still.

Chariots move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Saying that there's two unit types means that this rule gets broken by moving more than 6".

Did I say anything about unit type? Obviously I'm talking about profiles since I'm talking about characteristics. Why is it even relevant what unit type it is? Didn't see any rules that say Vehicles are immune to Psychic Powers. The target is the Chariot. It has Ld and Wounds. The power says what to do.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

This is an incorrect statement.
The Chariot is a model that might have a Ld Characteristic and a W characteristic, but doesn't always.

It is a correct statement. Chariots are always vehicle and non-vehicle. The non-vehicle always has a Ld and W characteristic, it may have a value of '-' (not aware of any in the game currently), but it's there.

Citation needed for the underlined statement.
They have vehicle and non-vehicle profiles, but the unit type is Vehicle still.

Chariots move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Saying that there's two unit types means that this rule gets broken by moving more than 6".

Did I say anything about unit type? Obviously I'm talking about profiles since I'm talking about characteristics. Why is it even relevant what unit type it is? Didn't see any rules that say Vehicles are immune to Psychic Powers.

Still - please support the underlined statement with actual rules. The model has two profiles; which one is used at any given time depends on what's happening. It's not both at the same time.

rigeld2 wrote:

It's not both at the same time.

Rules quote please.

I've added a poll to get a consensus of what dakkalites think.

Citation needed for the underlined statement. 
They have vehicle and non-vehicle profiles, but the unit type is Vehicle still. 

Chariot rules page 87 first paragraph first column.

Saying that there's two unit types means that this rule gets broken by moving more than 6".

Incorrect the rule says you move based on vehicle type so non-vehicle type is irrelevant for that rule.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It's not both at the same time.

Rules quote please.

a) Pot, kettle.
b) It's inherent in the way the rules treat them separately. Chariots move normally for a vehicle of their type. Riders have different rules.
One model, two profiles, used at different times.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It's not both at the same time.

Rules quote please.

a) Pot, kettle.
b) It's inherent in the way the rules treat them separately. Chariots move normally for a vehicle of their type. Riders have different rules.
One model, two profiles, used at different times.

Chariot rules:
"A Chariot is an usual unit with a dual profile..."

du·al
ˈd(y)o͞oəl/Submit
adjective
1.
consisting of two parts, elements, or aspects.

Therefore, it is a single profile consisting of 2 parts, each of which is also a profile.

Chariot rules:
"Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot"

Ergo, both must exist. Just because you use different parts at different times does not mean the others cease to exist.

So, if we don't roll to hit for Psychich Shriek the game breaks since we can't proceed beyond the 'must roll to hit' part of the rules.

If we do roll to hit (and let's pick an arbitrary amount of 1 dice) we have to allocate any hits and the controlling player can just allocate the hit to the vehicle profile and the game breaks too since we can't resolve it.

That's a lot of ways to break the game, unless there are some rules I missed that tell you to ignore all sorts of bits of the rules to make it work against Chariots?

Clearly, GW didn't think these rules through and they won't work in a sensible way without a lot of modification.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

I'm really not. I'm not arguing for Chariots to be immune to PS. I'm asking people to prove their arguments. There's a difference.

The unit's leadership is the Rider's... when it's allowed to be used. There's no permission to use the Rider's leadership in this scenario - people are making an argument of precedent.

But in this case it has to use the riders LD as the power requires that the unit LD be used, ergo the argument.

Cheers

Andrew

You need permission to allocate it to the rider's profile. Currently RAW you have wound(s) that have no legal allocation rules.

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But then again, as far as I can see neither are you.

I'm really not. I'm not arguing for Chariots to be immune to PS. I'm asking people to prove their arguments. There's a difference.

The unit's leadership is the Rider's... when it's allowed to be used. There's no permission to use the Rider's leadership in this scenario - people are making an argument of precedent.

But in this case it has to use the riders LD as the power requires that the unit LD be used, ergo the argument.

Cheers

Andrew

The problem here isn't that the chariot part of the model doesn't have a Ld. Its that even if you do generate wounds from psychic shriek what makes them go on the rider and not the chariot?

 jy2 wrote:
Does Psychic Scream always affect the rider of a chariot or can it be allocated to the chariot in order to try to save the rider?

Thanks.

If it's treated like a normal shooting attack, I see no reason why it should have a special exclusion allowing it to single out the character on the unit. A strength 7 weapon can't hurt a CCB for the same reasons that it will be allocated to the chariot instead of the rider.

You can allocate the hit to the chariot, but the target unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the difference, as the chariot and rider are the same unit- the chariot doesn't have wounds to suffer, but the rider does and is part of the same unit and would suffer the wounds.

you can use psychic shriek on a vehicle like a rhino or dreadnaught but as they have no wounds characterstic on any profile they have you will have no effect, the chariot does have wounds on one of the units profiles.

wounds from normal shooting attacks are allocated to models, but wounds from psychic shriek specify they are allocated to a unit.

the rider is part of the unit.

blaktoof wrote:
You can allocate the hit to the chariot, but the target unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the difference, as the chariot and rider are the same unit- the chariot doesn't have wounds to suffer, but the rider does and is part of the same unit and would suffer the wounds.

you can use psychic shriek on a vehicle like a rhino or dreadnaught but as they have no wounds characterstic on any profile they have you will have no effect, the chariot does have wounds on one of the units profiles.

wounds from normal shooting attacks are allocated to models, but wounds from psychic shriek specify they are allocated to a unit.

the rider is part of the unit.

The rider is not part of the same unit. He is part of the model which counts as a chariot unit. Psychic shriek inflicts automatic wounds on a model it hits. The chariot model has two profiles. A vehicle profile and a character profile. The hit can be allocated to either profile if it's a shooting attack. Therefore it can be allocated to the vehicle profile and it would have no affect just as if it hit a dreadnought.

Like I said above, I don't see the issue with this. Strength 7, poisoned and all sorts of weapons are denied any effect at all by allocating them to the vehicle on a CCB. Why should Psychic screech / automatic wounding weapons receive special treatment? There is no RAW support for it as far as I can read beyond interpreting "counts as one model" to over-ride the function of allocating hits between the profiles or interpreting the wounds as a characteristic modifier.

psychic shriek inflicts wounds on a unit, its different wording than normal shooting which inflicts wounds on a model.

The problem is if you allocate the hit to the vehicle profile you still have x wounds to allocate to the unit, and I dont think you can allocate wounds to a vehicle before you allocate it to a profile that has a Wounds value.

If psychic shriek allocated wounds to a model, I would agree.

its not that its automatic wounding, its that the hit puts wounds onto the unit, not a singular model. One of the profiles of the unit can suffer wounds, the other cannot, you can put wounds onto the vehicle but the issue is the wound pool wont be emptied as the vehicle has no wounds to reduce, and another profile in the unit does have wounds to reduce.

if it was normal shooting, you could allocate it to the vehicle all day long as normal shooting specifies you allocate wounds to a model within the unit, psychic shriek does not state this.