Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 helgrenze wrote:
So I gotta ask...
How do Browns fans justify the fact that Weedon had a higher completion rate with Dallas than all of the current Browns QBs?

Dallas actually has a decent O-line.

 helgrenze wrote:
So I gotta ask...
How do Browns fans justify the fact that Weedon had a higher completion rate with Dallas than all of the current Browns QBs?

Dude, you're the president and only member of the Brandon Weeden fan club. He's a journeyman-level QB at best.

It's pretty easy to justify it, he's a crappy quarterback. His career in Cleveland was example enough for us.

After watching the two quarter backs that matter last night. Hoyer was shaky with a few passes that were high, and Johnny was plagued by second stringers for his wide receiving core. A few of the phases that were missed were do to the receivers and their inability to catch the ball. Krause, who might be on a bus out of town, literally let a perfectly good ball hit his thigh/knee.

I'm not sold in either of them yet, but Johnny made a decent argument last night.

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's pretty easy to justify it, he's a crappy quarterback. His career in Cleveland was example enough for us.

After watching the two quarter backs that matter last night. Hoyer was shaky with a few passes that were high, and Johnny was plagued by second stringers for his wide receiving core. A few of the phases that were missed were do to the receivers and their inability to catch the ball. Krause, who might be on a bus out of town, literally let a perfectly good ball hit his thigh/knee.

I'm not sold in either of them yet, but Johnny made a decent argument last night.

I'm a Johnny Football fan. I don't get his distractors.... he has a chance to be a decent QB in this league.

It ain't like he was involved in killing anyone or knocked his wife unconcious in an elevator.

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's pretty easy to justify it, he's a crappy quarterback. His career in Cleveland was example enough for us.

After watching the two quarter backs that matter last night. Hoyer was shaky with a few passes that were high, and Johnny was plagued by second stringers for his wide receiving core. A few of the phases that were missed were do to the receivers and their inability to catch the ball. Krause, who might be on a bus out of town, literally let a perfectly good ball hit his thigh/knee.

I'm not sold in either of them yet, but Johnny made a decent argument last night.

I'm a Johnny Football fan. I don't get his distractors.... he has a chance to be a decent QB in this league.

It ain't like he was involved in killing anyone or knocked his wife unconcious in an elevator.

You gotta be careful when mentioning Ray Lewis and his rap sheet on dakka... I've almost been warned because of it >_<.

I would love to see Hoyer get the job, and win more games than we lose, but Johnny went out there and showed people why he was 'electrifying' at A&M. My biggest thing is that Johnny still has a ways to go. There were two things that stuck out to me about his play, but they're easy to correct.
1) Sliding instead of taking a hit: Last night Johnny ran head first into defenders on two separate occasions. I'm sure he was told to slide after the fact, because he'll get his head knocked off if he does so. He did make a successful slide later in the game, so I'm sure Shanahan told him when he got off the field.
2) When he cuts the field in half on those runs, he still needs to keep his eyes looking for open receivers. It was 4th and 1, he ran out to the side, and was almost crushed by Van Noy, but managed to get the first down. All the while, Ray Agnew was completely open right in front of him. He could have done a quick toss to him and gained more yards instead.

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's pretty easy to justify it, he's a crappy quarterback. His career in Cleveland was example enough for us.

After watching the two quarter backs that matter last night. Hoyer was shaky with a few passes that were high, and Johnny was plagued by second stringers for his wide receiving core. A few of the phases that were missed were do to the receivers and their inability to catch the ball. Krause, who might be on a bus out of town, literally let a perfectly good ball hit his thigh/knee.

I'm not sold in either of them yet, but Johnny made a decent argument last night.

People were talking up Hoyer in the offseason, but quality starters don't bounce around like he has. He reminds me of a lot of the guys the Steelers had between Bradshaw and Roethlisberger -- guys like Steve Bono, Bubby Brister, Jim Miller, etc. Physically they look the part, and they'll tease you now and then by looking good, maybe even for a few games. But they just don't have the IT factor to be a consistent quality starter.

I've been saying it all offseason -- Manziel has a chance to be good. He obviously has a few limitations and a lot to work on, but he's a smart kid with a knack for making plays with his feet AND arm. He has some IT factor...we'll see if it's enough. If he didn't play for the Browns, I'd be hoping for him to light it up and make all the haters eat their words.

Of course, the question is whether you throw Manziel in on game 1 sink-or-swim style, or start Hoyer for at least a half-season to give Manziel at least a chance to adjust to the NFL weekly routine, etc. Personally, I'd pick a nice soft spot on the schedule and probably do the latter, but the coaches obviously have a much better idea of what the kid can handle.

Haven't seen anything yet to change my opinion of Cleveland's O-line. Maybe Monday...

Haven't seen anything to really like about Philly's DEF, period. They have given up 76 points so far in just 2 games. One INT vs Brady doesn't look that great in comparison even if it was a pick 6.
Foles looked good, matching Brady on everything except the INT. Sanchez and Barkley not so much. Kinne didn't play and may be heading out.
Both Gost and Henery missed a FG.

Not liking the trend with Penalties, 20-30 per game is nuts. Some were so questionable that I doubt the actual infraction happened. [url=http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/check-out-the-gun-on-this-referee-throwing-flag-in-jaguars-bears--video-161300696.html] Of course there is this throw from the Chicago game.
[/url]
(Hmm looked ok in the preview....)

What the broadcasters for the patriots made it sound like is the refs have a quota for these pre season games with how many flags they're throwing. Like 25-30 flags per game, but then in the regular season that will drop significantly. Which seem so stinking fishy to me.

Chancetragedy wrote:
What the broadcasters for the patriots made it sound like is the refs have a quota for these pre season games with how many flags they're throwing. Like 25-30 flags per game, but then in the regular season that will drop significantly. Which seem so stinking fishy to me.

Could be a miscommunication between the media and NFL Officiating office... It could be more that they are judging the performance of new refs during the preseason, just as teams are judging new meat.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
What the broadcasters for the patriots made it sound like is the refs have a quota for these pre season games with how many flags they're throwing. Like 25-30 flags per game, but then in the regular season that will drop significantly. Which seem so stinking fishy to me.

Could be a miscommunication between the media and NFL Officiating office... It could be more that they are judging the performance of new refs during the preseason, just as teams are judging new meat.

I don't know, seemed like they had a quota in the SEA V. San Diego game. That interception touchdown return should have totally counted, but because the defense breathed on the receiver, it was called back for illegal contact.

Yeah, lots of "contact" penalties. Linemen 'windmilling' got tons of "facemask" calls too.
Seems that touching a receiver before they started running was a big one.
Lets see... And remember these are the actual accepted penalties, not the total flags thrown....
Jax-Chi = 21
Phi-NE = 21
Ten-NO = 32
Det-Oak = 19
GB-STL = 22
NYJ-Cin = 23
NYG-Ind = 26
Atl-Hou = 25
Ari-Min = 22
Buf-Pit = 18
SD-Sea = 15
Dal-Balt = 16
Mia-TB = 15
265 total so far this week... with 3 games to go. Last year the reg season high was 217.
Seattle was the "worst" averaging 8 per game with most teams falling into the 5-7 range.

 helgrenze wrote:
Yeah, lots of "contact" penalties. Linemen 'windmilling' got tons of "facemask" calls too.
Seems that touching a receiver before they started running was a big one.
Lets see... And remember these are the actual accepted penalties, not the total flags thrown....
Jax-Chi = 21
Phi-NE = 21
Ten-NO = 32
Det-Oak = 19
GB-STL = 22
NYJ-Cin = 23
NYG-Ind = 26
Atl-Hou = 25
Ari-Min = 22
Buf-Pit = 18
SD-Sea = 15
Dal-Balt = 16
Mia-TB = 15
265 total so far this week... with 3 games to go. Last year the reg season high was 217.
Seattle was the "worst" averaging 8 per game with most teams falling into the 5-7 range.

Crazy numbers! The refs are gonna earn it this year!

Well, Seattle developed mugging and grabbing receivers all over the field into an art form, and the league wants to make sure it doesn't become the new thing. The league doesn't want offenses to take a step back.

IIRC, a similar crackdown happened in the early 2000s after the Pats first SB win, in which they got away with all kinds of stuff against the Rams' receivers.

 gorgon wrote:
Well, Seattle developed mugging and grabbing receivers all over the field into an art form, and the league wants to make sure it doesn't become the new thing. The league doesn't want offenses to take a step back.

I honestly don't think the NFL realizes what the majority of fans really want... And I don't think that the "majority" of fans want their NFL game scoreline to look like it's cricket or the nba. What we really want is good, and well fought games and that includes the physicality aspect. I watched a few Seattle games last season and will say that they were, on the whole, more entertaining than almost any other single team over the course of the entire season.

Yeah if it's a really close game regardless of how big the scoreline is the game's good to watch, like the Dallas vs Denver shootout was a great gave to watch but so was the Saints Bears game which finished 24-16 as was the Cards vs Seahawks

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Yeah if it's a really close game regardless of how big the scoreline is the game's good to watch, like the Dallas vs Denver shootout was a great gave to watch but so was the Saints Bears game which finished 24-16 as was the Cards vs Seahawks

I see your logic here, and it boggles the mind that NFL doesn't see this and realize that holding defenses back even more than they have is a bad thing.

There was a preseason game (Balt versus someone, but not Dallas) on 2 weeks ago when I was traveling for work in Harrisburg, PA and at a bar/restaruant. The sound was off on the game I was watching as the bar was broadcasting a Philly game at the time. Anyway, it seemed like everytime I looked up, there was a penalty. And, invariably, it was on the defense for holding, pass interference, and other stuffs. Obviously not every play, but it was VERY distracting and slowed the game down. I couldn't hear the comentators, but I'm betting they were annoyed, too. This would make me turn the game off.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Yeah if it's a really close game regardless of how big the scoreline is the game's good to watch, like the Dallas vs Denver shootout was a great gave to watch but so was the Saints Bears game which finished 24-16 as was the Cards vs Seahawks

I see your logic here, and it boggles the mind that NFL doesn't see this and realize that holding defenses back even more than they have is a bad thing.

All the nfl sees is dollar signs and the popularity of fantasy football. They don't realize that if they keep going the route they are people will lose interest and they're cash cow will dry up. I read an article with an interview with goddell that basically said in the next 10 years they want to turn the nfl into a 25billion a year business. They are at roughly 9 now. In their eyes the way they do that is increase offense so fantasy becomes even "Funner"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Well, Seattle developed mugging and grabbing receivers all over the field into an art form, and the league wants to make sure it doesn't become the new thing. The league doesn't want offenses to take a step back.

I honestly don't think the NFL realizes what the majority of fans really want... And I don't think that the "majority" of fans want their NFL game scoreline to look like it's cricket or the nba. What we really want is good, and well fought games and that includes the physicality aspect. I watched a few Seattle games last season and will say that they were, on the whole, more entertaining than almost any other single team over the course of the entire season.

I think that more diehard fans want a balance. But there are many more casual fans that would almost certainly rather watch a shootout. And those are the people they need in order to grow the business.

I'm a Steelers fan, so you know I'm hardly anti-defense. But then again I think it's good that the NFL cares about such things. Compare them to the NHL, which is watching scoring drop again badly and couldn't care less. Goodell is a greedy meddling tyrant, but Bettman is simply incompetent.

First let me say, I am not a Weedon fan. I think he is at best an average QB. But he is a better QB than his alleged performance with the Browns.
I just want Cleveland fans to realize that until they get an Offensive line that works, they are going to keep running through QBs like they did last year and for the last two dozen seasons.

Case in point: Last week.
Dallas playing against a very good Baltimore Defense racked up the following stats:
20 of 35 for 280 yds.
7.8 yds ave per pass.
1 sack (Weedon), 1 int (Weedon), 3 tds, 1 Fum (Romo).
Weedon finished with 10-19, 129yds, 6.8 yds per att, the sack, int, 1 rush for -1 yd, and a QB rating of 52.3. He also threw the most passes of all the QBs in that game.

Cleveland playing against an average Washington Def:
17 of 31 for 186 yds.
5.2 yds ave per pass.
5 sacks (1 Hoyer, 1 Shaw, 3 Manziel) 2 tds, 0 int, 0 fum.
Manziel finished with 7-16, 65 yds, 4.1 yds per att, 3 sacks, 1 rush for -1 yd and a qb rating of 76.3. He also threw the most passes for Cleveland.

5 sacks among 3 Qbs.
This is basically the same O-line that allowed 49 sacks and a league leading 121 Qb hits.
For comparison:
Dallas - 35 sacks, 54 hits.
Houston - 42 sacks, 113 hits.
Seattle - 44 sacks, 94 hits.
Denver - 20 sacks, 54 hits.
Philadelphia - 46 sacks, 79 hits.
Those stats are what the NFL posted for O-line performance.... Not the QB, The Offensive Line.

checking in from south jersey. FLY EAGLES FLY!

 helgrenze wrote:
First let me say, I am not a Weedon fan. I think he is at best an average QB. But he is a better QB than his alleged performance with the Browns.
I just want Cleveland fans to realize that until they get an Offensive line that works, they are going to keep running through QBs like they did last year and for the last two dozen seasons.

First off, looking at preseason stats is a fool's errand, because you have to calculate in how many snaps were with the 1s, 2s, or 3s, and how many of those snaps were against the 1s, 2s and 3s of the opposing defenses. It's a revolving door of players in the preseason.

Your mind is obviously as made up as it can be. I get that Weeden is a OK guy, so you root hard for him. But the NFL is about cold, hard truth, which in this case is that he isn't a good QB, definitely not a starting caliber NFL QB, and his presence or absence from the Browns' roster will have no effect on their season. Hoyer has flashed more as a starter than Weeden, and Hoyer isn't a good starting QB either. Weeden by all accounts struggled in that game, so I don't even know what you're trying to show there.

Here are some truths. An elite QB makes his o-line better. The best o-line in the world can't help a QB make his throws on time or hit receivers in stride. They can't help him recognize coverages, see the field, look off defenders, or make something happen when nothing's there. Brandon Weeden struggles at too many of these things to ever make a difference as an NFL player, and his age (30) suggests that he's as good as he's ever going to be. The Browns' biggest mistake was drafting him in the first place.

When is our Leagues draft?

Probably next Friday/Saturday 8/29. Want to make it close to the last pre season game in case of major injuries. I'll be at Nova but I should be able to take care of everything before I leave.

Edit:probably just doing auto draft as I have been WAY to busy to organize a live draft.

Edit 2: we have only 6 people signed up. If your interested we have up to 6 spots left.
DAKKADAKKA FFL
League ID#: 471803

Auto Draft is the best way, IMHO.

I agree. Also meanmachine and iamwalrus you guys gonna renew?

Auto draft is great. Just looking for the time frame.

Auto is fine. Need more competition, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorgon, Its not about who the QB is. Romo is not an "elite QB" but that O-line makes him look better by giving him time to throw. Dalton or Campbell elite? Stafford?

Cincinnati and Detroit were top 10 teams for O-line, Passing, Sacks allowed (low), and QB Hits. Dallas was top 10 in all but passing, with less than "Elite" Quarterbacks.
Heck, most people think Foles in Philly isn't "Elite", but you can't argue with their results.

A decent O-line can make an Average QB look better.
Cleveland doesn't have even a decent one.

FFL.. We gonna have a "no cut" list this year? I recall that causing some issues in previous seasons.

I'll see if I can get rid of that. Cause yah it was super bogus last year.