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Using chaos to fight chaos sounds like something Malal would get involved in

I never quite got the logic behind destroying humanity to destroy chaos, it seems like a loss either way if your goal is to protect humanity (as space marines should). And with other threats around the galaxy (Tyranids, Necrons), is chaos really the Great Enemy?

My feeling (as it's mentioned in a few alien forums across the web) is something to do with ancient alien theory and one of the hundred theories behind where humans came from in the first place.

Now the theory that makes sense for (I'm not for many) is that humans don't fit naturally on this planet. I don't believe in Darwin's natural selection and I think they have disproved that already anyways I think but the thought that we were created by a superior being for a lower purpose works for me.

Signs why I think this and how it ties in the AL

1. Humans are the odd ones out on earth, everything else does only what it needs to survive.

2. We can't co exist together because of one billion reasons to hate, be envious of others, disagree with beliefs and goals, selfish, etc etc (obviously we have great traits too - love etc

3. We carry war wherever we go like a bad smell. We create only to destroy and this happens between us on a single planet.

4. We kill our own again for possessions which humans have labelled valuable themselves from thin air. Paper money etc etc

5, corruption to further increase one selfs power or station. Will stop at nothing bending and stressing lower people below them to achieve this goal.

6. Globally engineering recessions and wars like a rehearsal like a play to render countries and people desperate forcing them to fork out massive loans. We all know this if you owe a loan you are under the entity to which has lent you.

So a few points to explain the next bit and what some people say in these forums. Humans how we are by design are destructive, were unreliable, we are unpredictable and our emotions sometimes cloud our logical thinking hence we are not a suited race to take to the stars and bring our scud sack yo other more harmonious worlds.

In plain English I guess what it means is whoever created us and is watching us could be playing a part in keeping us at bay from causing havoc to other worlds in the universe who exist perfectly without our presence.

How it ties in with emperor and imperium? The big E knew this and is why what he created was only designed for its use nothing more. Once that use is over you can't expect to keep these around because of the risk these things possess ie primarchs, thunder warriors.

Now chaos is a sub factor in the world of GW. In my eyes chaos and human is the same thing one preaching their good but they do bad and the other knows its bad and probably never does good whatever whatever......the point here is there is believed to be a higher power than us probably our creator and they would stop us as a threat if we posed a risk to other non faulted worlds.

So the destruction of humans makes sense because the order would not of come from chaos in the first place it could of been from humanities creators, from even the emperor himself as a failsafe if he died to stop us from destroying everything we touched.

It's a sad a beautiful story and if anyone is interested I pitched up a book called ENKI and it explain a hell of a load of stuff in there about our past I'm sure some of you will like it.

Wooooow I've rambled waaaay too long. Enough I think

1- Humans do what we need to survive in a comfortable lifestyle with little potential risk. We educate our children to allow them to get a better job and more money than others.

2- Animals constantly compete with others, including others of the species in order to further their survival. Humans, as social animals, perceive any difference in other humans as a potential threat. Those that have different characteristics, religions, beliefs, etc, can provide a threat to reproduction by being more appealing to the opposite sex, or be a threat simply by being different.

3- War is enacted over territory and resources, same as animals. They are also instigated due to religion and beliefs, which then follows under Point 2. A different religion can be threatening to your beliefs and comfortable lifestyle, and so you send a force out en masse to terminate said threat. Ape families go to "war" regularly. Furthermore, war reduces the world populations. Due to "Artificial Evolution" (humans developing countermeasures to environmental changes within a single generation rather than due to superior characteristics and natural selection over several generations), the human species is vastly overpopulated.

4- We kill for resources. Paper money is *representative* of a resource (gold) which provides the comfortable lifestyle.

5- Become pack Alpha (Fe)Male, get rid or supress anyone trying to take that from you. Nothing out of the ordinary.

6- Nothing different from 5, just on a larger scale. Dominate and supress lessers to remain powerful and closer to Alpha position. Whether this be on a person-person level or country wide, trying to become the Alpha group.

You know Keri, maybe if you had something to back up your claims from the actual 40K lore and fluff instead of outside sources and your own personal opinion when it comes to proving your point?

It sounds more and more like you have convinced yourself you are correct and since the 40k fluff doesn't support you, you went looking elsewhere for any other source that would.

And then you pull those other source in as proof that your theories are correct even though your sources have nothing to do with your original arguments.

 kerikhaos wrote:
So technically they did fail the imperium by committing crimes during the heresy. But did they do it because of chaos corruption or to benefit from an independent factor in the war? It's unclear because it's not clean cut chaos reached them. They just acted out consciously question remains why did they do it because as a chapter they were so distant from the rest if the imperium

They are traitors because they commit traitorous acts
Similarly the night lords are traitors because they commit traitorous acts

BL fluff neither worships chaos and neither are corrupted by chaos.

 kerikhaos wrote:
My feeling (as it's mentioned in a few alien forums across the web) is something to do with ancient alien theory and one of the hundred theories behind where humans came from in the first place.

Now the theory that makes sense for (I'm not for many) is that humans don't fit naturally on this planet. I don't believe in Darwin's natural selection and I think they have disproved that already anyways I think but the thought that we were created by a superior being for a lower purpose works for me.

Signs why I think this and how it ties in the AL

1. Humans are the odd ones out on earth, everything else does only what it needs to survive.

2. We can't co exist together because of one billion reasons to hate, be envious of others, disagree with beliefs and goals, selfish, etc etc (obviously we have great traits too - love etc

3. We carry war wherever we go like a bad smell. We create only to destroy and this happens between us on a single planet.

4. We kill our own again for possessions which humans have labelled valuable themselves from thin air. Paper money etc etc

5, corruption to further increase one selfs power or station. Will stop at nothing bending and stressing lower people below them to achieve this goal.

6. Globally engineering recessions and wars like a rehearsal like a play to render countries and people desperate forcing them to fork out massive loans. We all know this if you owe a loan you are under the entity to which has lent you.

Now chaos is a sub factor in the world of GW. In my eyes chaos and human is the same thing one preaching their good but they do bad and the other knows its bad and probably never does good whatever whatever......the point here is there is believed to be a higher power than us probably our creator and they would stop us as a threat if we posed a risk to other non faulted worlds.

So the destruction of humans makes sense because the order would not of come from chaos in the first place it could of been from humanities creators, from even the emperor himself as a failsafe if he died to stop us from destroying everything we touched.

In bold. What. What you've said is either patently untrue or completely without basis in reality.

Darwin's Natural Selection is true. We KNOW it is. It's as much a fact as gravity. Sure, we might not know the details, but in broad strokes, it is correct.

1 - We really aren't. Blue-green algae annihilated 99% of life on Earth.

2 - We can coexist. Sure, we start wars and kill each other, but on the whole we're pretty alright.

3 - Whaaaaaat.

4 - Paper money has no intrinsic value, but it does have value.

5- I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

6 - You could make the case that the global recession was caused by artificial interest rates lowered by a bunch of people who thought they were smarter than the laws of economics, but the loans were created first by the cheap money. However, your entire argument is weird.

As for Chaos - they NEED humans. They need the worship to exist, afaik, which is why the Emprah tried stomping out religion. The Primordial Annihilator did exist before humans started though, so I think there's a massive hole in their theory.

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

You simply need to read the HH book "Legion"

Once you do, all is explained in a fairly straightforward and obvious way.

Mellow wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

You simply need to read the HH book "Legion"

Once you do, all is explained in a fairly straightforward and obvious way.

Which was an outstanding read. Read it in one day

I will pick up a copy of it as many have told me its a good read.....

im starting to get people are thinking ill of me because its sounding like im offending people with static type of thought. Darwin theory has not been proven its just what we all learn at school and what everyone has invested in millions displaying at every world know museum in the world. Natural selection is not a proven form of progress just as carbon dating is said not to hold no true measure.

My hobby doesn't just lie in the 40k realm and im not in any way attempting to lay GW fact here by saying I know the truth blah blah....im merely missing possibility with the hobby.

I like reading many types of materials and trying to understand how as people did we arrive to this point in time its mind boggling and I already believe we wont ever know the truth about where we came from or how but there is a ton of evidence out there that challenges the known taught knowledge - I guess you have to have a specific type of mind to see past the brick wall to what possible alternative explanations could also bare some truth.

Answering 2 points so its clear

not trying to corrupt the pure fluffers of WH40K to believing my version of the fluff but it is a free hobby to fill in the gaps yourself to make it more appealing for one personally.

Second im only again throwing speculations to alternative outcomes. There's no need for people to get all hard up about it. A good human trait is the ability to imagine and from that point things become a reality. I like to think from my reading, looking up, watching etc etc ive explained quite a few unknowns which circled me for years not because I can prove them with scientific fact but because that specific explanation makes sense more to me.

Half of the word believed the pyramids were made by man pulling rocks from 2000 miles away one by one which were laser cut and managed to lever them up all that height without any issues and left behind no evidence or tools how they made it.....the other half of the world doesn't believe that at all............nor one side nor the other can prove the other party is wrong.

Pick up the ENKI book also its a good read too (obviously outside the GW WH40K world). I liked it anywy

 kerikhaos wrote:
I will pick up a copy of it as many have told me its a good read.....

im starting to get people are thinking ill of me because its sounding like im offending people with static type of thought. Darwin theory has not been proven its just what we all learn at school and what everyone has invested in millions displaying at every world know museum in the world. Natural selection is not a proven form of progress just as carbon dating is said not to hold no true measure.

Evolution and natural selection is only "unproven" if you stick your head in the ground and ignore everything that would dare hurt one's self-induced ignorance. We've seen insects evolve and pass down genes due to their rapid breeding which can be observed in months. It's also obviously proven if you actually know a lick about science or how biological organisms work, even at the most basic level. But please, do go on if you wish so, I enjoy watching people making complete fools of themselves.

And then wait, yep, there goes all of your credibility. We know how the Pyramids were built, it only remains an "unknown" because of usual conspiracy theory hacks spouting their drivel across the internet for innocent ignorant readers to soak up, not knowing any better. Let me guess, do you think humans only use 10% of our brain too?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
I will pick up a copy of it as many have told me its a good read.....

im starting to get people are thinking ill of me because its sounding like im offending people with static type of thought. Darwin theory has not been proven its just what we all learn at school and what everyone has invested in millions displaying at every world know museum in the world. Natural selection is not a proven form of progress just as carbon dating is said not to hold no true measure.

Evolution and natural selection is only "unproven" if you stick your head in the ground and ignore everything that would dare hurt one's self-induced ignorance. We've seen insects evolve and pass down genes due to their rapid breeding which can be observed in months. It's also obviously proven if you actually know a lick about science or how biological organisms work, even at the most basic level. But please, do go on if you wish so, I enjoy watching people making complete fools of themselves.

And then wait, yep, there goes all of your credibility. We know how the Pyramids were built, it only remains an "unknown" because of usual conspiracy theory hacks spouting their drivel across the internet for innocent ignorant readers to soak up, not knowing any better. Let me guess, do you think humans only use 10% of our brain too?

That's a bit harsh bro, I'm all for educating people, but being aggressive about it just because they said they didn't believe in it, doesn't help anything.

But back on topic, the alpha legion sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, whatever their motivations were for doing it don't matter, from the protagonists point of view (i.e. the imperium) they are traitors. And as the setting is essentially based around the imperiums point of view, then that is why.

Ok, getting back on subject, and ignoring the obvious religous debate the OP seems keen to engage in, the Alpha Legion are considered traitors because of the definition of treason. You don't have to be evil to be a traitor. The Founding Fathers of the United States where guilty of treason to the Crown of England, just as a historical example.

The Alpha Legion where raised by the Imperium of man, to protect the Imperium of man, expand the Imperium, and safeguard humanity.

the Alpha Legion, even if you assume their motives are pure, is UTTERLY guilty of treason. just because you may agree with someone's reason doesn't negate that it's treason

 kerikhaos wrote:
I will pick up a copy of it as many have told me its a good read.....

im starting to get people are thinking ill of me because its sounding like im offending people with static type of thought. Darwin theory has not been proven its just what we all learn at school and what everyone has invested in millions displaying at every world know museum in the world. Natural selection is not a proven form of progress just as carbon dating is said not to hold no true measure.

My hobby doesn't just lie in the 40k realm and im not in any way attempting to lay GW fact here by saying I know the truth blah blah....im merely missing possibility with the hobby.

I like reading many types of materials and trying to understand how as people did we arrive to this point in time its mind boggling and I already believe we wont ever know the truth about where we came from or how but there is a ton of evidence out there that challenges the known taught knowledge - I guess you have to have a specific type of mind to see past the brick wall to what possible alternative explanations could also bare some truth.
Answering 2 points so its clear

not trying to corrupt the pure fluffers of WH40K to believing my version of the fluff but it is a free hobby to fill in the gaps yourself to make it more appealing for one personally.

Second im only again throwing speculations to alternative outcomes. There's no need for people to get all hard up about it. A good human trait is the ability to imagine and from that point things become a reality. I like to think from my reading, looking up, watching etc etc ive explained quite a few unknowns which circled me for years not because I can prove them with scientific fact but because that specific explanation makes sense more to me.

Half of the word believed the pyramids were made by man pulling rocks from 2000 miles away one by one which were laser cut and managed to lever them up all that height without any issues and left behind no evidence or tools how they made it.....the other half of the world doesn't believe that at all............nor one side nor the other can prove the other party is wrong.

Pick up the ENKI book also its a good read too (obviously outside the GW WH40K world). I liked it anywy

Holy watch the language please. Reds8n

Right, nobody thinks you're being offensive. Completely ignorant of the past 200 years of science, sure, but not offensive.

I am a geneticist who is currently mutating organisms; I slice and dice genes, alter the genes to my liking and move them around on artificial chromosomes and into different species. I have seen spontaneous mutations (which are a fething bitch btw). You could say I'm Fabulous Bile.

Carbon dating works as well. I'm also sure 99.9% of the world, minimum, believe the Pyramids to be human made. Also what you said is untrue - they did leave behind loads. Here's the wikipedia link.

Regardless, I doubt I'll be able to convince you that science is real, so let's focus on the matter at hand

Your Alpha Legion theory is full of holes. We have pointed them out. However, it's everyone's universe and your free to believe whatever you like

I would suggest you read the short story "the Serpent Beneath." The consensus on the Alpha Legion forums is that it's the best Alpha Legion story.

BrianDavion wrote:
Ok, getting back on subject, and ignoring the obvious religous debate the OP seems keen to engage in, the Alpha Legion are considered traitors because of the definition of treason. You don't have to be evil to be a traitor. The Founding Fathers of the United States where guilty of treason to the Crown of England, just as a historical example.

Bad example! Everyone knows the Founding Fathers were nothing but terrorist insurgents who ate babies, and worse, threw tea into the ocean!

Benedict Arnold might be who you're thinking of?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
I will pick up a copy of it as many have told me its a good read.....

im starting to get people are thinking ill of me because its sounding like im offending people with static type of thought. Darwin theory has not been proven its just what we all learn at school and what everyone has invested in millions displaying at every world know museum in the world. Natural selection is not a proven form of progress just as carbon dating is said not to hold no true measure.

Evolution and natural selection is only "unproven" if you stick your head in the ground and ignore everything that would dare hurt one's self-induced ignorance. We've seen insects evolve and pass down genes due to their rapid breeding which can be observed in months. It's also obviously proven if you actually know a lick about science or how biological organisms work, even at the most basic level. But please, do go on if you wish so, I enjoy watching people making complete fools of themselves.

And then wait, yep, there goes all of your credibility. We know how the Pyramids were built, it only remains an "unknown" because of usual conspiracy theory hacks spouting their drivel across the internet for innocent ignorant readers to soak up, not knowing any better. Let me guess, do you think humans only use 10% of our brain too?

For one thing your attack attempting to defend your argument proves one thing alone. Your insecure about what you believe hence why you feel it suitable to bang an opinion which only suggests another possibility. If we all don't beleive your old school education shut them down. But is it because you if your proved wrong the real ignorant party shall be revealed?

I'm not scared of being proven wrong but in your sense alone with natural selection is AGAIN incorrect. DNA proves that in the last 100 years there has been several major upgrades which has never occurred in all known history of man? You going to tell me it's because of the hole in the ozone layer? Or because of the new medicines are causing us to mutate? Natural evolution can't be proven evidence because the jump we made from the ape (which is still around by the way in case you weren't sure) is not in the same category as a rapid breaking moth. Our DNA shows modifications and not mutations. We're not changing to survive nor in the last 100 years has anything so drastically occurred to cause such a change in DNA.

Quickly about your point with the pyramids. First I didn't say we didn't build them but I'm merely giving example of the mystery. Your theory pushes a proxy belief (which has not been demonstrated - show me a lifelike pyramid today not some structural engineers evidence with formulaes on a CAD program). We can't accept the what ifs because there are people who think they know it at present that it's impossible for there of been a hidden tech etc.

Sir did you know with specific frequencies injected into various objects can make them weightless, this is from just sending a natural resonance and the object almost levitates. They have proved this. The fact the rock formation on the sphinx is almost 4000 years older than the rock of the pyramid because of rain withering? Read up on your history about true facts instead of coming at people with text book literature when the days were different for people and it was all about I say and you believe. Now people are asking questions, they are more intrigued less easy to fool and more and more people are asking .

I see your a resident of the states. Tell me about what you think about 9/11 because before you make yourself look like someone who speaks from an empty library on that year I was doing my exams on the navigations comms of the planes that took the twins down and it will be interesting to read what your claim is to that event since your so full of knowledge.

I'm not bothering anymore with this thread as it's gone out of control and this dude has just vibrated a frequency to which my brain became slightly irritated.

AL being traitors, long term goodies or just confused to they are themselves it doesn't matter if GW turns around and makes them good again will everyone in cry of cheesy story etc? Let people believe what they want - it's not an argument about who right or wrong it's what makes most sense to you. To be honest I've even forgotten what I initially thought about the, I'm going to have to read up to remind myself.

Anyways I hope the thread gets locked now it's getting stupid in here now

I would suggest you both calm down, before the Mods descend and lock the thread or start swinging the banhammer.

Also, Chaz, I suggest you fix the bad language. Mods don't take kindly to that either. Nor is calling someone ignorant very polite.

I agree, apologies to my offensive language it was not right